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Old 01-18-2016, 01:35 AM   #61
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Art me wise cracking Irish Bro.
Have you been hitting the WILD IRISH ROSE to add some ballast so you can float right?


When we would add ballast to the Ore Boat (in most cases) was to level out the Boat after we had taken on a load of Ore pellets. Those little buggers would roll around in the holds for some time while under way, which in return effect the boatís handling, so we would be Adding or Removing Ballast to keep the Boat level even under way.


When I say Adding or Removing Ballast I mean water Ballast.


Most Rec. Vesselís do not use water ballast but they do use weight ballast for much of the same reasons. Handling and keeping the vessel level or to keep the vessel trimmed right. This is due to the fact whatever has been + or - To the vessel after the vessel has been built. They can design them if they wanted too, without the need for ballast, however if they did that, it would not be their design.


You can add weight Ballast to any vessel if you want and if you have the need for it. We would use sand bags in a planing vesselís to stop the bow from raising up to high in chops at high speeds. By adding the sand bags (Weight Ballast) to the bow the vessel we would plain right through the chops and it was a smoother ride. Ballast can be your friend or it can be your enemy.


Case in point: The line in the movie Men of Honor: ďSo what you are saying is, he wonít float right!Ē


Well no! Because he lost his leg, so he his design is all mess up! He need some Ballast!

Happy cruising to you Art me Irish Bro.
H. Foster
H... Me hard fighten, cool thinken, fine drinken Irish Bro!

For keeping a boat correct in its trim stances: Boat owners needing to "add" more ballast onto/into their pleasure cruiser's (and, I'm not referring to huge ore carriers - lol) in addition to the original marine designer's weights reminds me of a boxer needing to add lead-weight into his gloves because his trainer/coach did not correctly engineer his training program so he could produce ample "follow through" trim during each power punch in the ring (a sea of fists - for sure)!

For all others in TF - H knows exactly what I state in that analogy and why I say it. He and I are close Irish... with backgrounds!

H - - > Be good, but not too good... Be careful, but not too careful and have fun - All You Can Handle!!!!

Hope things are well for you and yours; happy oncoming 2016 boating!

U Pal Art!
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Old 01-18-2016, 07:07 AM   #62
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H... Me hard fighten, cool thinken, fine drinken Irish Bro!

For keeping a boat correct in its trim stances: Boat owners needing to "add" more ballast onto/into their pleasure cruiser's (and, I'm not referring to huge ore carriers - lol) in addition to the original marine designer's weights reminds me of a boxer needing to add lead-weight into his gloves because his trainer/coach did not correctly engineer his training program so he could produce ample "follow through" trim during each power punch in the ring (a sea of fists - for sure)!

For all others in TF - H knows exactly what I state in that analogy and why I say it. He and I are close Irish... with backgrounds!

H - - > Be good, but not too good... Be careful, but not too careful and have fun - All You Can Handle!!!!

Hope things are well for you and yours; happy oncoming 2016 boating!

U Pal Art!
Art, me wise fella, thinking outside the box and happy go lucky Irish Bro.


Your wonderful analogy is spot on however like everything else in the world you have good trainers and bad trainers for the upcoming fight. (Good designs bad designs for the task at hand)

The true question is: Finding the right trainer or in this case the right design for one’s needs.


In your case you have been adding and subtracting ballast in your Tolly for years. In fact all vessels add or subtract ballast for that matter. That Ballast is comes in many different forums. (Fuel, water people ect.)


As Quint said: "We'll take him for ballast Chief"


The trainer of that Tolly fighter trained him right for the match Mr. Tolly is fighting. (His design) However Mr. Tolly fights in many different styles depending on how much ballast he has in his gloves. I am sure you have notice that while cruising Mr. Tolly to that great victory at the end of the match.


Each fighter (Vessel’s) has their own style. Some are punchers (Lager Vessels) Some are boxer punchers. (Midrange vessels) While others are speedy boxers. (Smaller fast vessels) just to give some kind of an example.


Each trainer (designer) trains his fighter for the task at hand. The trainer of the Boxer Puncher plays in both ponds. At one point the Boxer puncher will add ballast to his glove to follow through during his power punch, and other times that boxer puncher will remove ballast to out box that sea of fist! So there for, the adding or removing of ballast can be good or bad.


Hence that title of you post. “Added Ballast Good or Bad”


So me fast thinking, quick footed, two fisted drinking Irish Bro how is that for an analogy???


I may be some dumb but I am not plumb dumb, well may be when I drink I can be. You know how us Irish can get!


Great post Art. I do enjoy the wit.


Happy cruising to you and yours, me hard fighting power punching Irish mate!


Cheers


H. Foster
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:42 AM   #63
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Art, me wise fella, thinking outside the box and happy go lucky Irish Bro.


Your wonderful analogy is spot on however like everything else in the world you have good trainers and bad trainers for the upcoming fight. (Good designs bad designs for the task at hand)


The true question is: Finding the right trainer or in this case the right design for one’s needs.


In your case you have been adding and subtracting ballast in Tolly for years. In fact all vessels add or subtract ballast for that matter. That Ballast is comes in many different forums. (Fuel, water people ect.)


The trainer of that Tolly fighter trained him right for the match Mr. Tolly is fighting. (His design) However Mr. Tolly fights in many different styles depending on how much ballast he has in his gloves. I am sure you have notice that while cruising Mr. Tolly to that great victory at the end of the match.


Each fighter (Vessel’s) has their own style. Some are punchers (Lager Vessels) Some are boxer punchers. (Midrange vessels) While others are speedy boxers. (Smaller fast vessels) just to give some kind of an example.


Each trainer (designer) trains his fighter for the task at hand. The trainer of the Boxer Puncher plays in both ponds. At one point the Boxer puncher will add ballast to his glove to follow through during his power punch, and other times that boxer puncher will remove ballast to out boxer that sea of fist! So there for, the adding or removing of ballast can be good or bad.


Hence that title of you post. “Adding Ballast Good or Bad”


So me fast thinking, quick footed, two fisted drinking Irish Bro how is that for an analogy???


I may be some dumb but I am not plumb dumb, well may be when I drink I can be.


Great post Art. I do enjoy the wit.


Happy cruising to you and yours, me hard fighting power punching Irish mate!


Cheers


H. Foster
H... me blarney stone knock off (out) champ!

Great ta be in da ring with ya!!

You was a throwen so many ballast-punch combos in the post above I was beginning ta wonder if I'd make it to the bell!

It was the one roundhouse right hook that barely grazed me left cheek (your third paragraph) wherein I had a second to regain composure and block the rest of your ballast-jabs till 60 seconds on my corner-stool came to existence.

Man I was breathing hard and that slice over me left eye was sure a drippen!

Well... then I got a second breath and realized your game plan for when we stepped back in for this - Round #3. Luckily still having ample vim and vigor early in the rounds I planned and was also instructed by my corner to come at you with revised fight stance and method... so here I am now playing south paw and instead of keeping distance, like I was in the first two rounds... we be up close and personal! - lol

My first big punch flurry with two solid head shots and a crushing mid body blow could rock ya onto your heals... so here it is (regarding your third paragraph - see bold words above in your post, and quoted here): "In your case you have been adding and subtracting ballast in Tolly for years. In fact all vessels add or subtract ballast for that matter. That Ballast is comes in many different forums. (Fuel, water people ect.)"

Well - - > What you depict taint da type of "added" ballast I am referring to - at all. First two types of those useful/needed-to function boat ballast transferrables you mention were/are (should have been - and, in most Tolly boat's they were) fully planned into a boat's sea-trim features by the engineers and designers. Third type (people) and where the Captain places their weights has much to do with Captain's smarts as well as how many in the party of visitors are not too sloshed to even understand what the Good Capt said and meant as he told them where to go while aboard. Where in fact!!!!! - - > the "Added" Ballast I am referring to in all my posts in this thread is the non-useful, space/room-taking-up dead weight add-ons such as lead bars and /or concrete sacks, as well as other junk. Point I making in this thread (exactly why I started it) is that there are many boat designs that do not need "owner-added" dead weight ballast placed by their owners to keep their seagoing trim... because those boats were designed to NOT need dead weight ballast "added" by the boat owner just so the boat could (hopefully) eventually handle and maneuver and take seas correctly. In other words... some boats come out of the factory with all ballast needs already accounted for. As I said in an earlier post - (and, I paraphrase here) I shy away from boats needing or having "added" ballast brought aboard.

That said... designers and engineers and manufacturers of new boats have plenty opportunity to thoroughly encapsulate factory installed ballast weight[s] their particular boat model may need, provide stabilizer types to thwart roll, chine designs for through water stabilities, keel sizes/shapes to further accommodate handling/maneuvering capabilities as well as other design features; such as adjustable trim tabs, side fins and the like.


I have owned several boats over the decades... not one I bought needed owner "added" ballast dead-weights to perform at top of its mark.

There's the bell again. Man you are a tough fighter! - LOL

BTW - How's your Fleming search going for 2016??? Well I hope.

Irish is as Irish does! - Art
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:16 AM   #64
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Ballast?

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Old 01-18-2016, 09:21 AM   #65
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Ballast?

RT - You are BAD!


That's a sucker punch! I don't even dare get in the ring with you!
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:08 PM   #66
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Eric (Manyboats)

"Ballast wise your boat is not ideal...". And what boat is? Anytime you add additional post-factory heavy components (freezers, air, generator, spare anchors, etc), your going to have to add/shift movable ballast to
re-balance a relatively light hull. Actually, my NT 32/34 is more heavily weighted mid-ship with a heavy 270 HP Cummins 6BTA, and two 50 gallons poly water tanks integrated in stringers port/starboard immediately
behind the engine. I top off the water tanks regularly. The aft 200 gallon fuel tank is heavy but hardly ever full. In season, constant cruising and fishing keeps the tank averaging more half-full than full. This and newer NT 32/34's have an integrated swim platform, extending the hull water line to 34', which provides quite a bit of lift in the stern. The fuel tank is more under the rear of the salon, and not way aft in the laz. I carry my 85 pound Trinka dink on the swim platform mounted Weaver davits, and there's enough lift in the stern to barely discern the additional aft weight. I will say that the only way I can get to my top-end 18 knots at WOT 2600 RPM's is to be half full of water and fuel. At my current balance, adding additional weight in spare anchors (I carry one 29 pounder), 2 folding bikes in engine compartment, fishing gear, et al, I have no need to shift ballast bags. As others have mentioned, for balance and stability, adding some
ballast is a good thing. As for fuel effeciency, cruising at an average 8 knots, I'm happy with my 1.5 gallon per hour average over the past 10 years.

On the chain, I started at 200' of galvanized 5/16, but over the years, even with reversing the chain, I have been cutting off 10-20' of rusted chain every couple of years. I think I'm down to about 140'. When I get closer to 100', I'll splice in 100' of 3-strand rope. Out here in the NorthEast, I seldom put out more than 80'.
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:50 PM   #67
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"Ballast wise your boat is not ideal" .... "And what boat is" indeed.
One could say having the weight all concentrated amidships would be perfect but then the bow and stern both would be bobing up and down quicker than anyone would like.
I started this thinking "her lines" would be "perfect" and I posted pics of my boat and drew attention to two possible lines that may be for trim hoping someone would indicate they are trim lines and that most boats have them. No response to that end so I still don't know. Haven't been to the Willard site yet either.
While looking at NT32's I saw a pic of the fuel tank in the laz and thought of it's location as being not ideal. I don't consider 100gal of water there ideal either but at least I can remove lead to make the trim whatever I want. Never heard of a Willard w the ballast removed and probably wouldn't want to be aboard one either.
Sounds like you've got everything dialed in and are in good shape. Most of us would probably prefer to have lighter boats ... especially since most are SD.
I'll follow this up when I take care of the ballast but I'm not expecting much if any noticeable difference.
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Old 01-18-2016, 01:17 PM   #68
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Wifey B: Any more ballast and some of us wouldn't be able to stand up.
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Old 01-18-2016, 01:50 PM   #69
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Wifey B: Any more ballast and some of us wouldn't be able to stand up.
Ballast base word is ball. Thusly - Balls roll... so do boats when not correctly designed/weighted from factory. And, therefore owner "added" ball-ast dead-weight is sometimes required. Need I say more!
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Old 01-18-2016, 01:52 PM   #70
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Art me counter punching heavy weight. Me loves me some in fight, upper cuts are soooo good!!!


I will have to say, that the hard body blow you sent flying me way did make me reel a might, However I am used them.


As me old Trainer used to say. ďWiggle the hips me Lad and roll with the shot then counter right back.Ē

Ding Ding!


Ballast is ballast no matter which way you ballast it. I as well shy away from vesselís that needs added ballast. Too much work if you ask me.


Yes most vessels have already been design with all the ballast that is needed and they handle just fine. However, sometimes those vessels do not perform well as planned in the design and they find that out later (after the vessel had been built.) So they add dead weight such as lead bars and /or concrete sacks.


Now let me throw in a couple of stiff jabs. Just to keep you busy.


Most of the vessels I am talking about are older vessels and were built back in the day before computers and CAD. There was a lot of human error in some of the designs but sometimes they hit the nail on the head which was more the case.


Now on top of that, many of these older vessels are on their third or forth owner and there is no telling what the first two or three owners did to the vessel. The may have replaced old steel fuel tanks with lighter fiberglass fuel takes. Right there in its self would change the factory spec of the ballast of the vessels due to the fact that X is now Y from the weight of the vessel from its normal design.


Another factor is power plants. The older heavier power plants were spec out in the factory so the vessel would have that right ballast. (Here comes a fast jab Art.)


The newer, lighter more powerful power plants, which will give the vessel 4 or 5 more knots. Wow! Give me two of those please! Now X changed to Y is now changed to Z times 2!


We can get into all kinds of changes done too a vessels by owners that changes the factory ballast specs. Gen Set, didnít like a shower so turned into show/bathtub, counter tops so forth and so on. The list is endless.
So now by time Mr. Forth owners comes along he can feel that his (new to him vessel), really does not handle or trim just right. What does he do? Thatís right Art, he starts playing around with lead bars and /or concrete sacks and the alike, until he or she is happy with the way the vessel handles or feels that it handling better.


Okay Art me hard punching heavy weight. I will not throw that hard upper cut on you just yet. I will however let you see it.


Yes you are right, Art me happy punching mate. The newer vessels are not built like the older vessels. They do have room to play around with when it comes to factory ballast. That is by design.


Case in point: builders that offers three different kinds of power plants with three different kind of HP and three different kinds of weight. The same goes for Gen sets and other things. They have added in that factory Ballast spec. so the weight difference does not effect the vessels handling and so forth.


Now keep in mind the larger the vessel, the more room you have to play with. The smaller the vessel, the less room you have to play with. This why some of the larger vessels will have a choice of (Oh letís say Cat C-18 or C-30.) The weight difference between the two power plants can be up to 3,000 lbs per power plant. That is a lot of Ballast to play with.


In short Art, it all comes down to how it was designed and what has been changed over the years on the vessel.


Ballast is Ballast no matter which way you ballast it. Add some take some away. Does it float right with more ballast or less ballast?


Ding Ding. Heck Art, ran out of time, but I am your fast thinking heavy handed big and heart with not throw in the towel. You are Irish after all.


As far as the search goes, on the Fleming. I have me eye on two of them as of right now. Will popping to have a look at them shortly. However a new build is still not out of the realm. Will keep you posted for sure.


Irish is Irish does.


Happy Cruising Art.


Cheers.


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Old 01-18-2016, 01:57 PM   #71
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On running trim.....Pretty much every boat running below displacement speeds(< 1.34 x sqrt of LWL) will burn less fuel with the bow trimmed down. Looks like hell, may cause control problems, but it is more efficient at lower speed. The larger your transom the more noticeable the effect will be.
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Old 01-18-2016, 02:05 PM   #72
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Ballast base word is ball. Thusly - Balls roll... so do boats when not correctly designed/weighted from factory. And, therefore owner "added" ball-ast dead-weight is sometimes required. Need I say more!
Ok, I have to bite. First off, the etymology of the word ballast is not from the word ball. It most likely is related to a 14th Century Danish word barlast or "bare load". It appears to have entered middle English in the 16th Century.

That's not the primary concern though. You are repeatedly reinforcing the idea that the need for additional ballast is as a result of poor design. You say that a well designed boat should not need any additional ballast. I think your opinions is not well founded. I'm sure most if not all well designed boats require no additional ballast when they leave the factory. But once additional pieces of equipment are added to the boat, as they invariably are, it is practically impossible to do so and keep the boat perfectly balanced. Sure, on my boat, my main engine, both generators, fuel, water and waste tanks are all either centerline or arranged symmetrically. However, the after market Cruisairs, all four of them, are installed on the starboard side.

At some point, ballast may be needed to counterbalance installed equipment. To imply that the need to do so is a sign of poor boat design is to unfairly criticize many well designed vessels.

There I've said it.

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Old 01-18-2016, 02:16 PM   #73
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Art is attempting to argue that since his Tolly(a planing hull) has no "additional ballast"(his term) and since God himself ordained Tonlifson as the designer of the Ark then only his designs have any merit thus by default making any boat with "additional ballast"(again, his term) inferior.


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Old 01-18-2016, 03:19 PM   #74
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Art is correct though...buy a rubber stamped boat and it really shouldn't require ballast.


Thankfully there are more boat choices out there for different tastes.


Take a yard building Lobster boats and Lobster yachts. Out of 100 boats the chances that ay 2 are exactly alike...well OK 2, but 10? 15? Probably not and depending on how the boats are finished out will determine some ballast. As they are further modified through their life...more additional ballast.


The funny thing is.....what's the big deal? Adding a little ballast here r there if needed for ANY reason is no big deal if done correctly.
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Old 01-18-2016, 04:03 PM   #75
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Ok Ok Ok!!

I'm near to crying Uncle here! With H jabben me in the torso and head. Eric placing light but continued blows, Craig always with sharp jabs when appropriate, RT maken fun o' the whole thing and Richard and Tad being so damn logical it hurts; with others chiming in...I'm a leaven da ring... for now - too damn busy today to continue anyway!

Sooooo - - > Ballast is ballast in the eye of the beholder! "Added" dead weight ballast to me (one beholder here) is just that... an addition of dead weight - nothen more nothen less... except, in that it does add mass to help trim and/or stabilize a boat. That said; if'n I was to "add" ballast I'd try like hell to make that addition useable item[s] (as well as simply rearranging weight prone need driven items already aboard to improve trim and other conditions).

In effect add all the concrete sacks or led bars you all please for weight distribution - just simply not my thang!
Ding Ding - the bout's over. I got my point across!! And, so did all of you. Except RT... but that's a whole other story!
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Old 01-18-2016, 04:05 PM   #76
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If I add up all the "stuff" we have put aboard our 1973 boat since we bought it in 1998--- four tool boxes, most of which are pretty heavy, all sorts of galley equipment, spare parts, food, two anchors, anchor chain, additional electronics, two shop vacs, books, electrical cables, propane tanks.... the list goes on and on and most cruising boaters have similar lists--- that's a lot of weight that's been added to the boat over the years. And much if not most of it is stowed where it will fit, not where it will best preserve the boat's trim.

We've been fortunate in that on our boat it all seems to have evened itself out and the boat floats level side-to-side and pretty much correctly longitudinally. We know this because water on the deck goes to where the drains are.

The nice thing about a heavy, slow cabin cruiser like ours is that the more weight you add the better it rides. If the boat had more powerful engines that let us take advantage of it's semi-planing hull and cruise in the 12-15 knot range then weight might become a little more of a consideration. But with its two original engines it's an eight knot boat, so as long as it's not floating dangerously low in the water and the CG is not dangerously high, its weight is irrelevant.

But if the addition of the kinds of stuff cruising boaters tend to put on their boats has to be stowed in such a way that trim is affected, then the use of ballast of some sort to correct the trim makes all kinds of sense.

It's got squat-all to do with the boat's design. The designer and manufacturer have no idea what a buyer is going to bring aboard nor how they are going to mount or stow it.

Now if one has a lighter, planing-hull boat then trim and weight become more critical if the hull is to retain its performance. But that's on the owner, not on the designer. I assume--- but I don't know--- that designers take into account a degree of owner-generated weight. I suspect they're smart enough to know that nobody's going to buy a boat and then operated it exactly as outfitted (or not) as it was the day the manufacturer splashed it. But it's been our observation that most cruising boaters bring a hell of a lot more "stuff" on board than one would think.

Every boat design is full of compromises. If all that mattered was that the hull performed as desired, then engine(s), tanks, batteries, etc. could all be placed opimally for the ideal trim of the boat at it's designed speed. But when you add in the pesky detail that people have to be able to live and function on board the boat, that can put all the best-laid positioning plans out the window and compromise rules the day.

So maybe the engine(s) can't go exactly where you want but have to more forward or aft. This can screw up that ideal trim so the solution is---- ballast.

This is not confined to just boats. Airplanes have it, too. I don't know the specs on all our models but I do recall that the 727 has a big slug of permanent weight somewhere up forward so the plane would remain within it's CG limits under certain loading conditions. This wasn't a design flaw, it was design reality.

I think the overall rule is that you do what you have to do in order to obtain the desired results. Maybe that's don't put so much stuff on the boat in some cases, maybe it's add ballast in some cases, maybe it's be more careful about where stuff gets stowed in some cases. There's obviously no hard and fast rule and to try to create one is, in my opinion, a futile waste of time.
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Old 01-18-2016, 04:32 PM   #77
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In effect add all the concrete sacks or led bars you all please for weight distribution - just simply not my thang!

Actually it is your thing Art you just refuse to see it is all. Many times in the past whenever the subjects of spares, tools or storage comes up you wax eloquent regarding the massive amount of spare parts and tools stored in the fore cabin below your vberth. To hear you tell the story(and I have a dozen times) you must have almost 1,000 lbs worth of both. Not too many of us have claimed to carry circular saws and jig saws aboard full time as you have.

So you see Art, extra ballast really IS your thing but instead of dedicated and strategically placed its all tossed under your vberth.
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Old 01-18-2016, 05:13 PM   #78
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Art me beat up Irish brawler!
You through in the towel??? My God man did Mickey have to cut open your eye? Cut me Mickey!
Itís a good thing I did not hit you with that upper cut. What was it you said? Oh yeah. Up close and personal!
No really Art. You have a very good point on DEAD WEIGHT BALLAST. It is useless and I agree with ya that if you do need some dead weight ballast for whatever reason, make it useful.
I also agree with you that I would shy away from any vessel that would need to have that kind of added ballast. It would not be my kind of whiskey that is for sure.
I do get all your points and I was just trying to set forth some reasons why some Capts. Do use dead weight ballast. Well also to throw a few jabs at ya too! Which you took well.
Anyways me big hearted Irish brawler. Go have so good Irish whiskey, you will feel better in the morning!
Cheers mate and happy cruising with no dead weight ballast on your Tolly!
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Old 01-18-2016, 06:21 PM   #79
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfoster View Post
Art me beat up Irish brawler!
You through in the towel??? My God man did Mickey have to cut open your eye? Cut me Mickey!
Itís a good thing I did not hit you with that upper cut. What was it you said? Oh yeah. Up close and personal!
No really Art. You have a very good point on DEAD WEIGHT BALLAST. It is useless and I agree with ya that if you do need some dead weight ballast for whatever reason, make it useful.
I also agree with you that I would shy away from any vessel that would need to have that kind of added ballast. It would not be my kind of whiskey that is for sure.
I do get all your points and I was just trying to set forth some reasons why some Capts. Do use dead weight ballast. Well also to throw a few jabs at ya too! Which you took well.
Anyways me big hearted Irish brawler. Go have so good Irish whiskey, you will feel better in the morning!
Cheers mate and happy cruising with no dead weight ballast on your Tolly!
H. Foster
Double Cheers to You!
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Old 01-18-2016, 06:40 PM   #80
Art
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City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
Actually it is your thing Art you just refuse to see it is all. Many times in the past whenever the subjects of spares, tools or storage comes up you wax eloquent regarding the massive amount of spare parts and tools stored in the fore cabin below your vberth. To hear you tell the story(and I have a dozen times) you must have almost 1,000 lbs worth of both. Not too many of us have claimed to carry circular saws and jig saws aboard full time as you have.

So you see Art, extra ballast really IS your thing but instead of dedicated and strategically placed its all tossed under your vberth.
Craig - You must be punch drunk... not getten da point dat the only "added" ballast I'm against is the dead-weight non usable material type (lead, concrete - etc...) my anti "added" ballast campaign does not include adjustable/movable/useable weight items - - > such as; useful tools, engine parts, spare electric panels, xtra windless, iced coolers, food/drink, swim fins, and the like.

I recommend a few Excedrin PM... post again in the morning if fuzziness of mind persists! I'll have a different prescription ready for ya!
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