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Old 01-17-2016, 09:37 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
A generic question rates a generic answer. But, if mindlessly pontificating as we amateurs tend to do, all sorts of gibberish will appear.
....generic questions are only bested by the really important topics that are TOTALLY opinion questions....

It's when we get beat about the head and shoulders with someone's OPINION that they won't admit to as an opinion even with pretty substantive links showing otherwise.


Commercial vessels either carry cargo or have to ballast to maintain enough stability. Recreational vessels that are significantly altered or aren't usually loaded to their designed waterline (cruisers not cruising) certainly can use some beneficially for either stability or trim. Not rocket science.


Get specific and the answers get more attention from those that may know and seem more on topic. Otherwise, TF chaos as usual.
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Old 01-17-2016, 10:34 AM   #42
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IMO - As long as hull design and shape / superstructure design / interior parcels' locations / bilge-equipment & storage-spaces / engines / tankage / furnishings / as well as "fixed" initial ballast (i.e. what the designers engineered into a boat) are all taken into the "weight account" of a vessel while designing and building... then there should be no need for "added" ballast by the owner to then establish correct trim needs.

Being the thread starter and OP here I've been amused at some of the posts offered. My intended definition of "added" ballast was not what the original boat design engineers had in place as "fixed" ballast (i.e. trim weight in keel or other location)... but rather it means just as the thread title states ADDED ballast... meaning ballast that a boat owner ADDS in guess and by god test sequences because the original boat design was not ample to properly trim or maneuver the boat.

Additionally, it seems that there must be some way[s] to figure out how to (if it is truly necessary) "add" ballast via placement of new or redistribution of existing features in the boat that can further enhance useful/usable conditions in and about the boat. The placement of lead bars, concrete sacks, bird shot sacks, poured concrete squares just seems soooo non productive regarding usage of such limited space inside a boat.

I can't help but wonder why most if not all of the high quality production boat manufacturers' boats seldom if ever had substantial trim problems wherein "added" ballast was required to properly trim their boats. Could it be high quality engineering procedures as well as ample prototype-boat tests to make sure all weight positioning increments are sufficiently handled before major production numbers of boats came off the line?

I believe boats should be designed with no need for owners to "add" ballast to produce correct trim and handling conditions. Especially with modern computer assist design programs!
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Old 01-17-2016, 10:43 AM   #43
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Should is a big word...often not the same as reality.


Production boat builders DO add ballast as mods are done to models...so if an owner mods an older model...added ballast could be in order.


But most smaller production boats can't vary their designed weight all that much within normal operations...so ballast usually isn't necessary...but to say never...
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:18 AM   #44
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To Eric (Manyboats):

NT didn't include any ground tackle from the factory. My NT 32/34 is a relatively light semi-displacement (8 tons), with no built-in ballast. I installed a Lofrans Tigres windlass, 35 pound Delta, a second small anchor roller with a 15 pound Bruce for fishing, and 200' of chain in the locker. That brought the bow down and required shifting ballast bags further aft. If I added a generator (platform for it on port side in engine compartment), I would probably have to add weight to starboard to balance the boat.
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:24 AM   #45
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cjack, just sent you a pm.
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Old 01-17-2016, 12:06 PM   #46
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The PO of our 30' Sundowner Tug replaced the original 65hp engine with a 100hp engine, added a 40 gallon fuel tank to the aft port corner of the lazarette, and a swim step.

We put a 9.9 "get home or at least to a safe anchorage" outboard on a swim step swivel bracket. We also upgraded to a 150 pound dinghy and will be putting an additional 50 pounds of outboard on the dinghy, all hanging on Weaver snap davits off the swim step. (We tow it on anything longer than a day trip).

That's a lot of added weight from centre back to the arse end.

For the time being, before putting a larger windlass, a winter storm anchor and rode (with at least 100' of chain) on the bow, I put heavy duty kayaking dry bags holding bags of cement that were unused after a house renovating project low in the bow.

With the fuel tanks full Badger still sits a little low in the arse, but we can live with it for now. Fuelling opportunities are slim around here so the extra tank extends our time and/or range and the dinghy will allow us to explore away from safe anchorages.
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Old 01-17-2016, 12:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puffin_NT32 View Post
To Eric (Manyboats):

NT didn't include any ground tackle from the factory. My NT 32/34 is a relatively light semi-displacement (8 tons), with no built-in ballast. I installed a Lofrans Tigres windlass, 35 pound Delta, a second small anchor roller with a 15 pound Bruce for fishing, and 200' of chain in the locker. That brought the bow down and required shifting ballast bags further aft. If I added a generator (platform for it on port side in engine compartment), I would probably have to add weight to starboard to balance the boat.
Puffin,
Ballast wise your boat is not ideal. I speak of the stern fuel tank being one of the heaviest things in a boat and it's way aft in the laz. My water tanks are there (100 gal) but they are almost always full. We normally don't use much fresh water as we frequently tie up in town and fill up. Our two 50 gal fuel tanks are amidships beside the engine and since we burn 1hph we usually aren't down on fuel either.
Getting back to you when you go on long trips you're very likely to be half full of fuel or less for some significant part of the trip. Whereas you would be bow heavy. Not a good bias for big following seas. Ideally w your boat being stern heavy to some degree w full fuel would probably be desirable. And you probably have gear like drinking water jugs, spare anchors (or even a rode), spare starter .. prop ect that could be put in the laz for ballast. Then you could ditch the excess weight of gravel bags and lighten your boat up. It will handle better, go faster and get better fuel mileage. Almost anytime you can reduce boat weight it's a plus.
The NT32 is my favorite boat perhaps you've heard me say. But no boat is perfect. I like to stay a bit heavy in the stern just to avoid being heavy in the bow.
PS What size is your chain 5/16" or 1/4"? If it was me I'd lighten up the rode and use a combination rode w 100' of chain and 200' of line.
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Old 01-17-2016, 12:42 PM   #48
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Before and after photo's described in post #46;
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:11 PM   #49
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Anyone remember the Silverton that capsized following a 4th of July event, maybe 5 years ago. Several perished. The people ballast was in the wrong place - on the FB.
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:21 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Do all full displacement boat designs require ballast?
No, smaller modern tugs for instance carry no ballast.


Quote:
If not, why not... as compared to displacement boat designs that do require balast?
Fixed ballast in displacement hulls is usually included to lower the center of gravity, as well as to sink the boat deeper. Sinking deeper often increases stability (by increasing waterplane area), as well as further lowering the center of gravity.

These smaller tugs have huge engines and drives, big tanks, pretty deep draft, and super heavy hull construction, coupled with small deckhouses. These design features add up to a low center of gravity and boats that are safe without ballast.

Displacement pleasure craft usually are of fairly shallow draft, with small and light engines, relatively small tanks, and large deckhouses with all sorts of weights on the roof. These features create boats with a high center of gravity, ballast must be added as low as possible to make the boat reasonably safe.
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:42 PM   #51
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The seiners up here have huge refrigerated water tanks for the fish, they keep them full of water even when not fishing to keep the center of gravity low and improve stability. When you see one post season and the tanks are pumped out you are amazed at how high they sit in the water. The tanks also act to keep the freeboard low so working the nets over the railings is less effort. Lots of FD boats pump water (or fuel) from tank to tank for trim or to lower the CG.
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:47 PM   #52
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We have found our Albin-25 to be fairly comfortable in a seaway, compared to our former sailboat. Others have added ballast. The designer. Per Brohall counseled against not keeping the boat as light as possible with additions of gear, etc.
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Old 01-17-2016, 02:58 PM   #53
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Moby Nick,I agree w Per Brohall.
However the Albin 25 is a very light boat (my ballast weighs as much) and their most negative feature is the very quick roll well known in the club "Albineers of BC" as the Albin snap roll. Per says at one point that ballast on the little Albin should be at the gunwales and not low for stability. If you were to take a spin w me in the Willard it would be immediately obvious that the Willard is many times more comfortable than the Albin.

Doug,
Yes I'm amazed at the seiners w their sterns way up in the air w/o the tanks in ballast. Hard to believe.

TAD wrote;
"Displacement pleasure craft usually are of fairly shallow draft, with small and light engines, relatively small tanks, and large deckhouses with all sorts of weights on the roof. These features create boats with a high center of gravity, ballast must be added as low as possible to make the boat reasonably safe.
.... I wonder what boats you're talking about?
I suspect that many of these boats should have less top hamper .. a lower CG rather than try an fix a dog by adding more weight ... even worse .. but probably safer. And of course safer is better.

sunchaser,
And remember the whale watcher that went down off Tofino?

Murray M,
A little low in the arse is much better than low in the bow. But not overweight in the first place is even better. Much better. Do you have a list w the new 40gal tank aft? Perhaps you could run most of the time w it empty and fill on long trips. And I of course would lighten the rode. But if I were you I'd want all that stuff on board too. Perhaps you need a bigger boat.

I actually have beneficially added considerable weight to a boat. The boats are canoes. I take two (7&5gal) plastic tanks to mimic the weight of the bow paddler when I paddle solo. Filled at launch and dumped on landing.
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:14 PM   #54
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Pull all the lead ballast out of your boat and let us know how it works out for you Eric. My guess is you won't because you like how your boat floats on its lines.
Craig,
I suspect she actually does NOT float on her lines. I need to search the Willard Boat Owners forum and see what I can learn about "her lines". There is a groove above the WL more or less parallel to the WL that is not curved like the imitation caulking lines on the rest of the topsides. I may have too much weight aft. She steers well on big following seas but I think she may have done better before the lead went in.

In these two pics you can see the "lines" built into the hull. One a "lip" (at the bottom of the boot stripe) and the other a grove like the imitation caulking lines.
Another earlier pic shows there was at least an inch and possibly even two inches difference between bow and stern before and now I'm sure it's more now. Sorry the ugly picture.
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Old 01-17-2016, 03:15 PM   #55
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Ah...the bigger boat suggestion...


Common and still incorrect in terms of a simple solution.


People have been modifying boats for good and bad since the beginning.


Just depends on one's perspective of what is good or bad.


Changing boats rather than using a little ballast having insignificant effect for the most part to improve a boat some?????? I know my choice....
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Old 01-17-2016, 06:28 PM   #56
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First , manyboats, let me say that your Willard looks like a great boat.

Two things about our experience with the Albin-25. First, we've only had her 3 yrs, and haven't had her out in really bumpy seas. Second, our previous Yawl, a 28-ft Shearwater designed by Phil Bolger, was very light displacement and had an utterly flat bottom (no rocker, no deadrise) so her bilges floated atop every wave to cross our beam. If choppy water was the medium, our bilges rose and fell with each wave, without any delay due to inertia. A press of sail was the only way to steady her. Anchoring for the night was best done in a very quiet cove.

We're happy that our Albin does not immediately roll with every passing lump of water. The round bilges help that a lot compared to a Shearwater Sharpie.
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:27 PM   #57
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Art me wise cracking Irish Bro.
Have you been hitting the WILD IRISH ROSE to add some ballast so you can float right?


When we would add ballast to the Ore Boat (in most cases) was to level out the Boat after we had taken on a load of Ore pellets. Those little buggers would roll around in the holds for some time while under way, which in return effect the boat’s handling, so we would be Adding or Removing Ballast to keep the Boat level even under way.


When I say Adding or Removing Ballast I mean water Ballast.


Most Rec. Vessel’s do not use water ballast but they do use weight ballast for much of the same reasons. Handling and keeping the vessel level or to keep the vessel trimmed right. This is due to the fact whatever has been + or - To the vessel after the vessel has been built. They can design them if they wanted too, without the need for ballast, however if they did that, it would not be their design.


You can add weight Ballast to any vessel if you want and if you have the need for it. We would use sand bags in a planing vessel’s to stop the bow from raising up to high in chops at high speeds. By adding the sand bags (Weight Ballast) to the bow the vessel we would plain right through the chops and it was a smoother ride. Ballast can be your friend or it can be your enemy.


Case in point: The line in the movie Men of Honor: “So what you are saying is, he won’t float right!”


Well no! Because he lost his leg, so he his design is all mess up! He need some Ballast!

Happy cruising to you Art me Irish Bro.
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Old 01-17-2016, 08:06 PM   #58
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Art,

Your quote modified:

[Quote]The placement of lead bars, concrete sacks, bird shot sacks, poured concrete squares just seems soooo non productive regarding usage of such limited space inside a boat.

Very little use for the shallow trough that runs beneath the engine and the length of the keel. 7 inches deep and 7 inches wide, subject to a bit of bilge action. Lead ingots measure 2 inches high, 7 inches wide and 14 inches long.


I believe boats should be designed with no need for owners to "add" ballast to produce correct trim and handling conditions. Especially with modern computer assist design programs!

I believe 'modern' as in design assist, may have been a bit early in 1978. I'd bet time tested figures and formulas were employed. However, as Tad I believe has alluded, the OP had the option of choosing the engine/gear, tankage capacities, during the construction of our make of boat given the opportunity.
I'd bet that there are several different out of the box weight on our class of boats (18 constructed) to give a variety of end weight.In a nutshell. added ballast is a moving target.

Al-27' Marben Pocket CRUISER


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Old 01-17-2016, 08:10 PM   #59
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Hi Eric,

Get a bigger boat...good one!

Yes, we need more fuel than 'normal' to explore the more remote and longer channels on BC's coast (or to stay out longer) and we need a more robust dinghy than 'normal' that'll allow us to explore exposed beaches and creeks away from safe anchorages. Some people may be able to size the boat for these needs, but we sure can't!!!

Besides, after coming from the sea kayaking world Badger is ridiculously decadent in its size and cushy, warm & dry opulence
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Old 01-17-2016, 10:17 PM   #60
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The way I look at it, (an uneducated opinion) a reasonable amount of extra weight below the waterline, amidship and on the centreline can only add to the stability.

I am considering adding some ballast below my new (200 lbs lighter) engine. I've been collecting lead flashing from a mate who does house demolitions. I may melt it down and epoxy about 400 lbs of lead in place, leaving enough room to drop the oil pan if ever required. As a bonus, I won't have to reach as far to retrieve dropped tools.
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