ABYC Standards

[angus99]

Not living in the US of A, (not everyone does you know), so the ABYC, whatever that stands for, is irrelevant to me, I was just talking about the annoyance in general of bright spark folk in high places coming up with regulations, especially when made retrospective, irrespective of how practical that might be, just to try and make our world idiot proof, whatever the cost and inconvenience. I thought you would probably agree with that..?

PS. to BandB...watch it with those doctor jokes. You have to have some clues to even get in, but for the record, I'm a quack, and I graduated equal top of my year. I don't claim to be a boat expert, but I do have a 'thing' about safety...and I can categorically state, we cannot make the would idiot proof, no matter what we do...

Cheers,

Wrning: waxing philosophical here.

Peter, with abundant respect, while I agree that you can't make the world idiot-proof, I think there are ample reasons for sensible standards and regs in our societies. In the broadest sense, we're talking about rules, how sensibly they are applied and whose ox is being gored.

Many years ago, I worked in a nuclear power plant and encountered idiots that society definitely needed to be protected from who openly mocked the comparatively mild rules that were then in place. Today, few people would disagree that nukes should be regulated to the gills and managed to the highest standards to ensure safety. I would argue that, after highly publicized accidents the only reason nuclear power exists is because people are more or less satisfied that they are built, operated and maintained under strict rules. In your field, I'd like the certainty that the medical professionals I need when I'm sick understand and follow the rules--as I'm sure you do. I'm guessing there are rules that Baker and other pilots think are superfluous, but as a passenger, I'd hate to see a meat cleaver taken to air safety regs.

Like most people, I chafe under what I consider purely bueaucratic or misapplied rules and regs and I think that happens more often when they apply to pursuits that I equate with personal freedom: boating, driving, topless beaches .

People will always perceive the need for rules differently and carp about what they see as stupid, unjust or unneeded rules . . . as I was doing a few posts above . . . but a lot of the bitching comes from people simply not liking any rules that affects their economic interests or who fantasize that they can live in a society without rules. (Not that anyone on this forum feels that way . . . ). Finally, rules can be, and sometimes are, changed when enough people oppose them.

 

[angus99]

".and I can categorically state, we cannot make the would idiot proof, no matter what we do..."

Why would you want to?

DARWIN improves the breed.

Because I'd rather not be dragged into the demonstrations put on by others that prove Darwin right.

 

[caltexflanc]

I can only say how I select vendors. I start with recommendations from those I really trust and know have requirements and standards equivalent to mine. I don't ask others for recommendations as I don't know what they base them on. I interview someone I'm thinking of doing business, in some ways like I do potential employees, just less thorough. But I don't lob softballs in interviews or just socialize and cover things gently. I ask hard questions that I think will separate them. I review all I can find out about them, including how they run their business, how long they've been where they are, why they left a previous location, how much backlog they have piled up and I ask opinion questions so I can get their views. If they are electricians and they tell me ABYC is a pile of crap, then I won't deal with them. If they talk ugly about other people in the area, especially those I respect. And I only deal with well written contracts. I look at how they do business overall, not just their specific skill as I'm not hiring them, but about to enter into a business arrangement with them. I also do check them out including credit reports.

Basically I deal with vendors as I have in business for 25 years. While my boat is pleasure and recreation, getting service is a business act.

Now we get our major work done by a large well known boatyard. We know we pay a higher rate, but the work gets done right and they stand behind it if it isn't. It's also done when promised. And we go back over and over. If there's an issue we address it immediately with them but it's based on a long time relationship so they know we're not complainers.

Now, I don't profess that my methods will necessarily work for others, just that they work for me.

X2 on this excellent post. One either chooses to be a victim in these matters by leaving these things to chance, or does due diligence (including some self-education NOT from anonymous unaccountable strangers on social media). People are victimized by making poorly prepared choices, not by the bad tech or surveyor they chose.

 

[psneeld]

Even the best sometimes let you down...no matter how diligent you are. Experts are fallible and have their quirks.


If you are the "victim" of one...of course it pisses you off.


I don't have the answer as it is really the insurance company you are dealing with and how reasonable they are with demanding surveyor's recommendations be met, plus how and when. I have heard of owners talking insurance company demands down when they provided ample evidence the surveyors recommendation were out of line so I have hope that the world still has some reason in it.


Anyone particular to blame for the "system" as it is being discussed? Not really, maybe weighted to one side as there are a lot of "not fully knowledgeable" buyers in the big boat market...but it isn't a 100% their fault either.

 

[alormaria]

Nice for new boats. For older boats, not so much.

 

[sunchaser]

How many on TF would buy a brand new million $+ vessel for use in the US or Canada under 65' that DOES NOT comply (with sensible exceptions) with current ABYC recommendations?

Next question, does any builder of such size vessels brag about NOT FOLLOWING ABYC guidelines?

 

[psneeld]

I wouldn't...but I would buy a 25 year old TT for $55,000 and not expect it to meet the same standards of NASA.... or bring it up to those standards to sell it or insure it. I also don't like the concept of teaching newbies that those standards are necessary for safe boating.


Let's not loose sight of the basics/huge variety of boating here.

 

[psneeld]

Pre 911 combat ships were built to WAYYYYY different standards than civilian ships. (and still are).

Post 911 with the war on terror being fought EVERYWHERE and vessels like cruise ships having added security and the like, why aren't they made to retrofit for terroristic (battle) damage?

Because of reason and threat assessment....and probably better lobbying.

I have said it before, if ABYC standards were "not one size fits all" they may not get as much flack. And if I easily had a volume of them to peruse, I may change my mind as I could be farther off base than I think.

But some here think even $100 is no big deal to spend on something that "could" affect my home. When I bought, moved aboard and started to rebuild my boat AND my life...a $100 was a big deal. If a state allows liveaboards...AND insurance companies can demand you follow a ABYC guideline, and insurance companies are regulated by states.....methinks there should be a readily available copy to peruse...even if it is at the local building inspectors office that approves "occupancy" for dirt dwellings.


And like some building codes, they are adjusted for type of occupancy....like types of boating should be.

 

[stubones99]

".and I can categorically state, we cannot make the would idiot proof, no matter what we do..."

Why would you want to?

DARWIN improves the breed.

You sound like my late father.

He says that helmets (bike and motorcycle), seat belts, etc. should not be mandatory, since idiots that choose to not use them will remove themselves from the gene pool. I responded "That's where we get politicians!"

My worry about ABYC and other private standards organizations is that anyone with closed door meetings, private standards, or output that only a few get access to, are generally self serving groups.

I have absolutely no problem with multi-tier systems where I can audit but not vote, but still get access to the standards documents. It has been said many times here, how do we know what the standard is if the standard is private.

The organizations will say that letting all the riff-raff in will prevent any consensus on the final standard. I don't believe that's quite the case, because by limiting their standards, they are limiting who can pick them apart. If the private committee get to specify the language and content to a private standard, then we should not be held hostage to their standards.

But we are... Surveyors and Insurers set how things are to be done and what we pay to have our boats protected, all using that secret standard.

Open the doors and let the sunshine in. It will be better because of it.

 

[sunchaser]

Let's not loose sight of the basics/huge variety of boating here.

PSN

My point was not clear. Let me try again. As best I can figure out, ABYC is for three primary purposes

• New build compliance tests
• Yards use it as a maintenance and repair guide
• Surveyor use

In either of the first two cases the prospective buyer can walk or run if things not kosher. So it may well serve as a buyer protection plan.

I do hear mention of insurance guys raising flags on some older vessels, maybe in a FEW (not all) cases they should. I do know what my insurer says about some non compliant vessels they insure, in these cases serious issue were brought forward that owner was not aware of and rightly fixed.

 

[psneeld]

I hear ya...it is just that I hear of TOO MANY complaints about fixing things flagged by surveyors on older boats that don't meet ABYC standards.


I certainly agree that many of these items should be addressed...but do they have to meet 100% of the standard? Or just enough that the real danger has been reduced by 90% or so?


Bottom line is my own somewhat uneducated on the entire ABYC issue view and just too many others sharing SOME part of this discussion feel dissatisfied with status quo.


I don't want them to go away, nor surveyors, nor insurance companies....but too many of the CUSTOMERs seem to be complaining about the standards and how they are used in older boat surveys. Just my observation.

 

[BandB]

".and I can categorically state, we cannot make the would idiot proof, no matter what we do..."

Why would you want to?

DARWIN improves the breed.

Have you looked around lately? You really think the breed has been improved?

If we were dogs, the AKC would be dropping us from their list.

 

[stubones99]

The problem is compliance to the standards.

There may be standards published and available to the membership, but there is no enforcement on the membership to strongly encourage compliance.

In the end, they can comply with a standard or not. Their choice. And many that do not comply still claim ABYC standards compliance.

 

[TONTOROSS]

Our propane tanks are under the dashboard of the upper helm area. They sit in a permanent lock down like one would see in an RV or on the tongue of a trailer. I was told that I needed a propane control kit. I installed it. Was not fun. I had to run the hose behind permanent molding which I removed than reinstalled. Works great. Up to ABYS cool. The other day I ran across some information that the tanks need to be in a locker!! Where would I put it? I'd need to remove the hose & buy a much longer one to meet that standard. What is wrong with storing tanks in a well vented area with a trough? Should I be forced to relocate the tanks, the hose would be exposed to wear & tear. Of course, I could run it in conduit, which will be in the way. I've plumbed gas into my shops, house & cabin. I use propane for my forge's. I followed the UBC, state & county codes with a lot of common sense. What does not factor in for me, if there is a gas vapor leak, why would one contain the gas in a box, rather than let it dissipate. I know flames etc, etc. By the By, location of the tanks were located by the factory. Why is this information coming my way fragmented? I think if an organization is to hold boaters to a standard, the standard requirements should be available to all or become mute.

 

[BandB]

Our propane tanks are under the dashboard of the upper helm area. They sit in a permanent lock down like one would see in an RV or on the tongue of a trailer. I was told that I needed a propane control kit. I installed it. Was not fun. I had to run the hose behind permanent molding which I removed than reinstalled. Works great. Up to ABYS cool. The other day I ran across some information that the tanks need to be in a locker!! Where would I put it? I'd need to remove the hose & buy a much longer one to meet that standard. What is wrong with storing tanks in a well vented area with a trough?

I think your situation may well fit their definition of locker.

 

[Northern Spy]

I have no problem with the adoption of ABYC code for minimum construction standards.

ABYC standards are not codes.

I do have issue with it for maintainance, and its use by surveyors and insurance companies.

You'd rather have anyone with a business license mess with your electrical system instead of an ABYC certified MARINE electrician? A lawn mower mechanic instead of an ABYC certified diesel mechanic to work on your diesel engines? You're ok with gate valves as seacocks...surveyors whose only qualification is, they have business cards that say they're a surveyor?

I believe that the ABYC should delineate between standards and best practices, not unlike API.

You, like at least half the people in this thread, are confusing standards with codes. They are not...standards ARE best practices recommendations! And btw, UL also has a marine standards committee...its standards are also "best practices recommendations" and are incorporated into ABYC standards.

Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier, but for some reason Peggy's italicized quotes didn't show up on the android app, so I couldn't figure out what she was saying. On a PC now, and I can see she was responding to me and not just quoting me.

Yes. I completely understand that ABYC is not code. I work with code every day and am responsible for compliance with code. What I should have typed is, I have no problem with the adoption of ABYC AS code for minimum construction standards by manufacturers. I realize that the NMMA uses them as standards, but it is voluntarily enforced, often times on a case by case basis. Code implies law. The problem is that surveyors and insurers don't understand or delineate the difference.

ABYC would make fine construction standards. The reason have issue with it for maintenance, and its use by surveyors and insurance companies, is that is is not locked to the revision.

ABYC calls them all standards. Some should be best practices.

A standard uses words such as shall and must, and is considered necessary or a requirement.

A recommended practices uses words such as should and may, and is considered desirable or in the interest of safety.

Builders should use a standard and be held accountable to such. Maintainers should maintain to the construction standard built too and make recommendations to the owner for efficiency, potential obsolescence, and safety from newer standards or best practices.

I appreciate that there are ABYC certification programs for technicians, and I would think that many would understand the difference between maintain and construct. You take my word maintenance out of context.

Most classification societies and standards promulgators are private entities. I prefer this to the heavy handed, clumsy, and political leanings that government committees generate.

In the end, I appreciate the ABYC standards. I have purchased them in the past. I think the council is maturing and issuing reasonable standards. I believe the standards generally speaking, increase the safety and quality of boating in North America. I also recognize that ABYC is not the end all be all and that here are competing standards, which also contribute value.

I believe that insurers and surveyors are often unreasonable and often misapply the standards.

This is where ABYC can improve it's image. It is happening, but will take time.

 

[psneeld]

I think your situation may well fit their definition of locker.

Not even close according to my reading of it and confirmation with Boatpoker and these complaints were the same as mine with the exception...mine sits out in the open at the aft end of the flybridge for even better vapor disappation.

 

[seadogmike]

Wow...if false conclusions were bridges, y'all would have jumped to your deaths!

I do not believe any owner, buyer, manufacture, insurance or lender should be forced or require that ABYC suggested standards be enforced until:

1. They become a public forum
2. Public has input in any proposed standards
3. The board is elected

ABYC standards are not regulations or "codes,"...they are not enforceable. They ARE recommendations intended to protect the vessel and its occupants, that most people with any sense follow willingly and most insurance companies insist they be followed.

The public has all kinds of input into the creation of ABYC standards. Every major boat builder is a member as are surveyors, yards, dealers and any other person or business entity--including individual boat owners--who have a legitimate connection to the boating industry.

The public has a lot of input into ABYC standards....they are arrived at by consensus of the members of specific committees that consist of equipment mfrs, surveyors, yard owners and yes, boat owners. I sat on an ABYC sanitation project committee from 1992-1996...it's members included 2 yard owners, the president of a major sanitation equipment mfr (not Raritan fwiw... he chaired--and may still chair--the boat piping committee}, 2 NAMS certified surveyors and 2 boat owners. We met in Annapolis several times a year.

I nor anyone else here can speak to the rational of why the AYBC limits sale of its standards to marine professionals.

They don't. Anyone who has a valid use for them can buy them...members do pay less. And the board IS elected. Two previous board members--one a surveyor, the other a boat owner--are close friends of mine.
I think the current AYBC policy of only allowing marine professionals or students access to the standards defeats the whole purpose which should be to promote safety and safe installation practices.

They don't. Anyone who has a valid connection to the marine industry can buy them They do charge members considerably less than non-members--and some may be available for free to some students... but any boat owner can buy them...just specific ones, or the entire library.

I have no problem with the adoption of ABYC code for minimum construction standards.

ABYC standards are not codes.

I do have issue with it for maintainance, and its use by surveyors and insurance companies.

You'd rather have anyone with a business license mess with your electrical system instead of an ABYC certified MARINE electrician? A lawn mower mechanic instead of an ABYC certified diesel mechanic to work on your diesel engines? You're ok with gate valves as seacocks...surveyors whose only qualification is, they have business cards that say they're a surveyor?

I believe that the ABYC should delineate between standards and best practices, not unlike API.

You, like at least half the people in this thread, are confusing standards with codes. They are not...standards ARE best practices recommendations! And btw, UL also has a marine standards committee...its standards are also "best practices recommendations" and are incorporated into ABYC standards.

As far as ABYC, I like to have a recommended way to do things, that I can choose to follow or not. I wish they were more easily accessible.

They're readily accessible, but not free or dirt cheap. Standards are not created once and set in stone...as technology evolves, so must standards evolve and change. Keeping them current is not cheap...neither is training and educating mechanics, yard personnel, surveyors and brokers. And all that is expensive! The "tuition" charged for certification training doesn't begin to cover the actual cost. Too many people put enough value on ABYC standards to WANT them, but not enough to be willing to pay a fair price for them.

However, once they become enforceable standards, they better be publicly available.

Iow, free. When standards become enforceable, they cease to BE standards...they become regulations which ARE enforceable and will be incorporated into the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations), which is readily accessible for free.

I agree that the code should be accessible to all, but ABYC had a corner on the market here. That seems short sighted, but profitable to ABYC.

ABYC is a non-profit organization.

I hope that era ends soon.
Iow, you WANT the standards to become regulations just so you can get them for free?

I've said my piece. Hopefully I've managed to talk at least a few of you off the bridge railing.

Headmistress,
I agree with you whole-heartedly. Yes, I agree that if the standards were more readily available, more people would use them in their work. I will say his though. Some of the standards would be very hard to interpret. I am an Electrical engineer and have been for over 25 years. When I went to the certification class, it was tough. Even for me.

As you mentioned, they are standards, not codes. It is up to the owner of the vessel to determine whether he chooses to take the "advice".

The motto of ABYC is "Boating Safety built in". Their purpose is to make boating safer for all of us. This is especially true when it comes to the Electrical part. Many hours of research have went in to the creation of the Standards, so we could safely enjoy this hobby (or lifestyle) that we so dearly love.

I chose to join ABYC for the knowledge that I now have access to, regardless whether it is. Be it where to connect a ground or the correct type of drain hose for the head, when I walk onto a customers boat, I am armed with enough information to know that when it is finished that it will be right. No, it may not be the only way it can be done, but if I was to do something incorrectly while working on someone's boat, they would be the first to point the finger at me to say it was my fault.

My suggestion for those who feel like ABYC is more a handcuff than a helping hand, to simply drop them a line. I can honestly say that the people who are part of the ABYC team are always willing to help.

Personally, if I own a boat that is worth upwards of 100K (or even 50K), I wouldn't trust it to just anyone. Choosing to do the work yourself is ok as well, as long as you understand that you are putting your own life as well as your families lives in your own hands. It's not about control or forcing regulations or anything of that sort. It's about making boating safer.

That's just my 2 cents

 

[psneeld]

Nice post Northern Spy...agree wholeheartedly. Your mention of the tiered system of best practices and standards is a better explanation of my concerns than my posts.

 

[Marin]

Not even close according to my reading of it...

If by "under the dashboard" one means the bottle is in the same compartment as instruments, radios, and other items with electrical connections and switches I don't think that comes anywhere close to meeting the defintion of a propane locker. ABYC or no ABYC that sounds like a potentially dangerous situation to me.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Nice post Northern Spy...agree wholeheartedly. Your mention of the tiered system of best practices and standards is a better explanation of my concerns than my posts.

I agree!!! here here....nicely posted

 

[HeadMistress]

Peggy did a nice job clearing up a lot of the confusion and miss-information. I'll add one more clarification. Anyone can join for $255 per year and have access to all the standards online.

It's taken me a while to get back into this because a) I needed some info from ABYC and b) my computer. (actually just Firefox) decided to have a nervous breakdown on Friday.

ABYC DOES have a boat owner membership category. It's not on their website at present because the website is actually under construction at the moment.

An individual membership is $180/yr, which entitles you to the following: [FONT=&quot]

o [/FONT]24/7 online access to the most current ABYC Standards
You can download and save and/or print any or all of the standards...even share 'em with your freeloading friends if your ethical standards are low enough
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Technical support via phone/email with ABYC Standards Technical Department
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Discounts on classes, certifications, publications, webinars, and ABYC merchandise
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Quarterly technical journal, the Reference Point
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]Listing in the ABYC online member directory
Individual boat owners are even eligible to sit on the project technical committees that create the standards.

As for what the money they collect goes for, I suggest you spend some time browsing under the "education" tab on their website. It barely scratches the surface in showing how much more ABYC does than just create standards, and NONE of it is inexpensive to do. The Calendars--past and future only begin to scratch the surface.

And btw...my publisher told me yesterday that my new book "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors, updated, revised and expanded" will be out in about two weeks.

 

[C lectric]

Good At $180 I will look at it again.

&

Good I will also look for the new book. Boat doesn't stink YET BUT maybe clue me into something to avoid.

 

[HeadMistress]

Greetings,
Ms. HM. "...ABYC standards are not regulations or "codes,"...they are not enforceable... and most insurance companies insist they be followed." The very fact that one cannot get insurance without following AYBC "guidelines" neutralizes their lack of enforcability. Non compliance (based on the OPINION of a "surveyor" who may or may not be "qualified")=No insurance. Simple as that. I agree that one must make every effort to be as safe as possible but the sway AYBC holds over the average boater is, as mentioned, a license to print money by those unscrupulous individuals who wish to take advantage of such "unenforceable" codes.

Insurance companies are only concerned with whether or not a boat they insure is likely to cost THEM money. ABYC standards are safety standards intended to prevent owners and insurance losses. Insurance companies rely on surveyors' reports to tell 'em whether any boat has a condition that puts them or owners and crew at unnecessary risk. Just as a bartender has the right to refuse service to someone who's obviously already had too many, insurance companies have the right to refuse to cover a boat that's likely to become a preventable claim. That does NOT turn ABYC standards into enforcable codes or regulations. And the "sway" that ABYC has over the average boater only indicates the VALUE of ABYC standards. Hard to see how that could make them "unscrupulous."

 

[HeadMistress]

I think your situation may well fit their definition of locker.

Propane tanks stored below decks are required be in a VENTED locker, because propane is heavier than air and flammable, and propane tanks can leak. That's not an ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) standard, it's a USCG regulation you'll find--for free, btw, in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations)

Since your propane tank is neither below decks nor in any other enclosed space, I don't think you have to worry about being in compliance

 

[Marin]

Since your propane tank is neither below decks nor in any other enclosed space, I don't think you have to worry about being in compliance

Unless I'm mixing up posts, I believe the propane tank storage space in question is inside the flying bridge console. If the poster is describing what I am envisioning, it is an enclosed spce and one gerally also occupied by electrical and elecronics components.

 

[what_barnacles]

Unless I'm mixing up posts, I believe the propane tank storage space in question is inside the flying bridge console. If the poster is describing what I am envisioning, it is an enclosed spce and one gerally also occupied by electrical and elecronics components.

And the wiring for those components typically run thru to the cabin unsealed allowing a path for a propane leak as well.

 

[psneeld]

Wow...a standoff and a gross misunderstanding at that.


I don't think anyone here s suggesting grossly unsafe boats...just grossly over use of standards that SHOULD NOT always apply to older boats. Because here's not enough data to support the probability of accidents caused by a single omission of a standard.


Insurance should look at say a 10 step standard, and if the owner complies with the 9 most important... be treated accordingly....not just grouped into "non-compliant.


Go back a few ears and remember the hub-bub over prop guards...all the arguments and the final USCG decision. Insurance companies and safety gurus didn't and SHOULDN'T always drive the train.


This is for small passenger vessels...not sure if it is in the CFRs for recreational vessels.


46 CFR § 184.240 Gas systems.
Cooking systems using liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) and compressed natural gas (CNG) must meet the following requirements:
(a) The design, installation and testing of each LPG system must meet ABYC A-1, “Marine Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems,” Chapter 6 of NFPA 302, or other standard specified by the Commandant.

 

[boatpoker]

Wow...a standoff and a gross misunderstanding at that.


I don't think anyone here s suggesting grossly unsafe boats...just grossly over use of standards that SHOULD NOT always apply to older boats. Because here's not enough data to support the probability of accidents caused by a single omission of a standard.


Insurance should look at say a 10 step standard, and if the owner complies with the 9 most important... be treated accordingly....not just grouped into "non-compliant.


Go back a few ears and remember the hub-bub over prop guards...all the arguments and the final USCG decision. Insurance companies and safety gurus didn't and SHOULDN'T always drive the train.


This is for small passenger vessels...not sure if it is in the CFRs for recreational vessels.


46 CFR § 184.240 Gas systems.
Cooking systems using liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) and compressed natural gas (CNG) must meet the following requirements:
(a) The design, installation and testing of each LPG system must meet ABYC A-1, “Marine Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems,” Chapter 6 of NFPA 302, or other standard specified by the Commandant.

Not required for non-commercial vessels.

 

[twistedtree]

I'm just curious..... Does anyone's insurance policy actually say that the boat must meet ABCY standards?

And if you are seeking out a new insurance co, it's probably worth asking if they require that the boat meet ABCY standards for them to insure it. And then ask the proposed surveyor what standards they are evaluating to boat against. Then at least you will know the rules going in and can call foul if someone starts making up new rules.

Also, for better or worse, Insurance companies are in the business of making money, and will seek out the highest return policies they can, and shed the lowest return policies. You should expect nothing less. I've been "non-renewed" when their parameters have changed, and I've "non-renewed "them when their policy restrictions have changed. It's all part of a market economy.