View Poll Results: Do You Believe in the ABYC?
Yes, they serive a vital service for the boating community. 18 58.06%
No they are a secret society and is a pain in the..... 2 6.45%
Yes if it became a public entity 5 16.13%
No ABYC the USCG should handle all standards 6 19.35%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-27-2016, 02:51 PM   #41
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Interestingly there is an article in Pro Boat Builder this month saying basicly that ABYC, without discussion or warning, has made cleanout ports on diesel tank sides non-compliant. They can henceforth only be on the top of the tanks to meet their specifications. The article's author is suggesting that except for very large vessels this will end the ability to check and/or clean tanks. If my experience with surveyors holds true, they will soon be asking for removal of "non-compliant" tanks when they see side cleanouts.
Well, if this is true, it's absurd. How would this advance safety? You would have to have access ports on the decks for many boats to open the top-mounted inspection ports on saddle tanks, creating more opportunities for water intrusion and rust. Either that, or redesign many boats so that saddle tanks are totally accessible from above while you're inside the boat. And how well can a tank be cleaned and inspected from 5 feet above? If this discourages tank cleaning--or leads to half-assed cleaning--how is having dirty tanks in a rough seaway safer than having inspection ports on the sides of tanks?

I am in favor of sensible, reasonable standards and regulations to protect boaters from those who challenge Darwin's theories whenever they go boating. I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water and faulting all regulations every time somebody comes up with one that's absurd or overly aggressive. That said, ABYC's approach seems opaque to me and utterly counterproductive to their stated mission. The fact that their standards are frequently misused by surveyors, banks and insurance companies only compounds, IMHO, a problem that begins with ABYC.
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Old 01-27-2016, 03:00 PM   #42
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Well, if this is true, it's absurd. How would this advance safety? You would have to have access ports on the decks for many boats to open the top-mounted inspection ports on saddle tanks, creating more opportunities for water intrusion and rust. Either that, or redesign many boats so that saddle tanks are totally accessible from above while you're inside the boat. And how well can a tank be cleaned and inspected from 5 feet above? If this discourages tank cleaning--or leads to half-assed cleaning--how is having dirty tanks in a rough seaway safer than having inspection ports on the sides of tanks?

I am in favor of sensible, reasonable standards and regulations to protect boaters from those who challenge Darwin's theories whenever they go boating. I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water and faulting all regulations every time somebody comes up with one that's absurd or overly aggressive. That said, ABYC's approach seems opaque to me and utterly counterproductive to their stated mission. The fact that their standards are frequently misused by surveyors, banks and insurance companies only compounds, IMHO, a problem that begins with ABYC.
Exactly...I'll take my chances with a minor diesel leak over losing an engine at a critical time.

I have seen this same crap in both boating and aviation safety for nearly 40 years now. One accident and new standards or procedures are developed often by people without LOTS OF REAL OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE.

It is one thing to publish warnings, another to avoid that in a new build if possible...but to portray it as more important a safety issue than clean tanks goes back to my other post ....BULCRAP!!!!.....there is a weighted set of issues here....not an absolute. If they publish that...great but from my ABYC experience.....probably not.
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Old 01-27-2016, 05:01 PM   #43
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Ms. HM. "...ABYC standards are not regulations or "codes,"...they are not enforceable... and most insurance companies insist they be followed." The very fact that one cannot get insurance without following AYBC "guidelines" neutralizes their lack of enforcability. Non compliance (based on the OPINION of a "surveyor" who may or may not be "qualified")=No insurance. Simple as that. I agree that one must make every effort to be as safe as possible but the sway AYBC holds over the average boater is, as mentioned, a license to print money by those unscrupulous individuals who wish to take advantage of such "unenforceable" codes.
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:05 PM   #44
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I like the concept of AYBC standards, and I want my boat to comply with them.
I think that having standards in place provide a set of best practices that can and should be used by persons working on boats.

That said, the standards need to be easily assessable. I do not mind paying a fee (everything costs) but the standards need to be access able to be effective.

I think the current AYBC policy of only allowing marine professionals or students access to the standards defeats the whole purpose which should be to promote safety and safe installation practices..
ABYC Standards are available to anyone with a credit card.
Don't believe me ? Call them with your Visa in hand.
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:26 PM   #45
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ABYC Standards are available to anyone with a credit card.
Don't believe me ? Call them with your Visa in hand.
Well, they should be available free online and printed at a minimal cost to cover the cost of printing. Non-profit, industry organization, just seems to be operating like every other private membership organization.
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:34 PM   #46
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Well, they should be available free online and printed at a minimal cost to cover the cost of printing. Non-profit, industry organization, just seems to be operating like every other private membership organization.
Do you work for free ? Do you think the costs involved in creating these standards are "minimal" ?
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:38 PM   #47
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So tell us Tom, who is making a lot of money at ABYC? Name names please!
I only point out that, just because ANY group claims to be non-profit, that people working there are working for free or there isn't a lot of money in the mix. All they have to do is spend what they earn and show zero profit (over simplification) Peggy brought up that the ABYC is non-profit as an argument that they aren't in it for the money. I just pointed out that people that run non-profits aren't always good samaritans. The ABYC might be awesome, but not all non-profits are. You're smart enough to understand that. I don't even know why I bothered to reply.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:33 PM   #48
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Then there's my pet annoyance that now, under recently passed new regulations
Don't see how you can compare legal regulations with voluntary (ABYC) standards.... apples and coconuts.
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:01 PM   #49
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To Miss Peggy Hall:

Right on the money. Thanks for your (as always) valuable input.

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Old 01-27-2016, 08:05 PM   #50
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I only point out that, just because ANY group claims to be non-profit, that people working there are working for free or there isn't a lot of money in the mix. All they have to do is spend what they earn and show zero profit (over simplification) Peggy brought up that the ABYC is non-profit as an argument that they aren't in it for the money. I just pointed out that people that run non-profits aren't always good samaritans. The ABYC might be awesome, but not all non-profits are. You're smart enough to understand that. I don't even know why I bothered to reply.
You made the implication, you choose to back it up or not. You chose not. It's like people who say that anyone who owns a "big" boat is a multimillionaire and robber baron... so if they are going to imply that, I'd like some facts myself. Or are you indeed a robber baron?
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:08 PM   #51
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Mr. bp. More like oranges and tangerines. Yes, AYBC "standards" ARE voluntary but today's boat owner is held ransom by "surveyors" who actually have the power to make it impossible to buy any insurance that one wishes to have for an item as simple as a hose clamp (for example). In today's litigious society, one would have to either be a fool or have deep pockets to venture forth without insurance.
I have commissioned several surveys and I actually look forward to the exercise because I want to know what shortcomings my vessel may have that actually reflect directly on the safety of said vessel.
It has been discussed before and YOU may be a qualified, straight up, reasonable guy but not every surveyor is like you nor may every technician who you hire be AYBC "certified".
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Old 01-27-2016, 09:10 PM   #52
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I only point out that, just because ANY group claims to be non-profit, that people working there are working for free or there isn't a lot of money in the mix. All they have to do is spend what they earn and show zero profit
Hillary's foundation is non profit.
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Old 01-27-2016, 09:25 PM   #53
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Greetings,
Mr. bp. More like oranges and tangerines. Yes, AYBC "standards" ARE voluntary but today's boat owner is held ransom by "surveyors" who actually have the power to make it impossible to buy any insurance that one wishes to have for an item as simple as a hose clamp (for example). In today's litigious society, one would have to either be a fool or have deep pockets to venture forth without insurance.
I have commissioned several surveys and I actually look forward to the exercise because I want to know what shortcomings my vessel may have that actually reflect directly on the safety of said vessel.
It has been discussed before and YOU may be a qualified, straight up, reasonable guy but not every surveyor is like you nor may every technician who you hire be AYBC "certified".
True, but if you hire unqualified people you have to bear responsibility for that. The idiots in the business (in any business) would not exist if people did some due diligence and did not hire them.
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Old 01-27-2016, 09:47 PM   #54
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Mr. bp. So it's my fault that the NAMS/SAMS certified surveyor or the AYBC technician is incompetent? Fancy letters behind a name do not a professional make BUT they will allow me to get my insurance renewed. Hiring anyone can easily be a "shot in the dark" proposition if one does not have any references other than the person's "cerification". Let me assure you, the idiots in the business DO exist and they continue to exist. How they remain in business is beyond me.
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:27 PM   #55
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Very few of us on this forum are experts at the whole "boat" thing. By which I mean systems design, structures and materials attributes, manufacturing techniques, and underlying quality of workmanship.

So we have to rely on people in the industry who are experts on these things. But.... are good, bad, and indifferent surveyors and it is on us to hire one who's competent, honest, and credible. That I think sums up boatpoker's position and I have no quarrel with it.

I've said this before and I'll say it again that I believe a huge part of having a successful experience with a boat is being a good judge of character: surveyors, mechanics, electricians and electronics people, and so on. But being a good judge of character is not an automatic guarantee you'll always hire the best person.

Humans are very, very good at projecting the image they want to project and it can sometimes be very difficult to see through that image to the real person behind it. Sometimes what you see on the outside is what you get and sometimes it's not. This, I think, is the gist of RT's position. And I have no quarrel with it, either.

As I've mentioned in other threads, my wife and I picked up the expenses to take a good friend with a lifetime career in the boating industry at a very prestigious company with us to California to inspect, sea trial and have surveyed the boat we ultimate bought. We did this because we were in no position to accurately and credibly evaluate all aspects of the boat we were going down to look at, nor were we in a position to judge the competence of the hull/systems and engine surveyor's we'd hired other than the recommendations we'd been given. Unless an electrical panel was actually on fire, I was in no position to judge if it was installed properly and wired safely. But our friend was.

We knew the friend we took to California to look at the boat was honest, experienced, objective, and credible because we'd known him for years and were well aware of his reputation. But what about the surveyor you just met, or is little more than a name on a recommendation list?

I don't have any magic formula for how to be an infallible judge of character, credibility, and honesty. There are certainly ways of stacking the deck in your favor but there is no sure thing.

But it's a tough call and sometimes--- sometimes--- experience comes by getting burned. Hence the frustration expressed by RT and others. But this doesn't change the validity of boatpoker's position: the responsibility to hire competent people is still on us.

So you do the best you can. We just spent four months and a lot of money dealing with a complex and frustrating problem with our PNW boat. We were confident the people doing the work were competent and credible, and as an added check I ran everything they were doing and proposing to do past the aforementioned friend. With that problem behind us, a new unrelated problem was just discovered. Like the first one it's fairly serious but unlike the first one it's pretty straightforward and the fix is obvious.

But... the person qualified and equipped to perform the fix in our harbor is a total unknown to us. So we have elected to take the recommendation of our diesel shop and hire this fellow to perform the work. We'll see.......
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:22 PM   #56
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I can only say how I select vendors. I start with recommendations from those I really trust and know have requirements and standards equivalent to mine. I don't ask others for recommendations as I don't know what they base them on. I interview someone I'm thinking of doing business, in some ways like I do potential employees, just less thorough. But I don't lob softballs in interviews or just socialize and cover things gently. I ask hard questions that I think will separate them. I review all I can find out about them, including how they run their business, how long they've been where they are, why they left a previous location, how much backlog they have piled up and I ask opinion questions so I can get their views. If they are electricians and they tell me ABYC is a pile of crap, then I won't deal with them. If they talk ugly about other people in the area, especially those I respect. And I only deal with well written contracts. I look at how they do business overall, not just their specific skill as I'm not hiring them, but about to enter into a business arrangement with them. I also do check them out including credit reports.

Basically I deal with vendors as I have in business for 25 years. While my boat is pleasure and recreation, getting service is a business act.

Now we get our major work done by a large well known boatyard. We know we pay a higher rate, but the work gets done right and they stand behind it if it isn't. It's also done when promised. And we go back over and over. If there's an issue we address it immediately with them but it's based on a long time relationship so they know we're not complainers.

Now, I don't profess that my methods will necessarily work for others, just that they work for me.
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:32 PM   #57
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Greetings,
Mr. bp. So it's my fault that the NAMS/SAMS certified surveyor or the AYBC technician is incompetent? Fancy letters behind a name do not a professional make BUT they will allow me to get my insurance renewed. Hiring anyone can easily be a "shot in the dark" proposition if one does not have any references other than the person's "cerification". Let me assure you, the idiots in the business DO exist and they continue to exist. How they remain in business is beyond me.
No argument from me .... and they will continue to exist as long as people hire them. Neither CMS, AMS, PE, MD, Ma nor any other title guarantees quality. I know a couple of doctors that i would not let bathe my dog. It's my responsibility to qualify the people I hire for any function. The certifications are simply a baseline for further investigation.
Bottom Line ... I control my own fate and I choose to do that in part by educating myself about the people I do business with and not rely solely on the alphabet soup that follows their names.
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:56 PM   #58
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I know a couple of doctors that i would not let bathe my dog. It's my responsibility to qualify the people I hire for any function. The certifications are simply a baseline for further investigation.
Bottom Line ... .
I remind myself occasionally that half the doctors out there finished in the bottom half of their class.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:18 AM   #59
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Don't see how you can compare legal regulations with voluntary (ABYC) standards.... apples and coconuts.
Not living in the US of A, (not everyone does you know), so the ABYC, whatever that stands for, is irrelevant to me, I was just talking about the annoyance in general of bright spark folk in high places coming up with regulations, especially when made retrospective, irrespective of how practical that might be, just to try and make our world idiot proof, whatever the cost and inconvenience. I thought you would probably agree with that..?

PS. to BandB...watch it with those doctor jokes. You have to have some clues to even get in, but for the record, I'm a quack, and I graduated equal top of my year. I don't claim to be a boat expert, but I do have a 'thing' about safety...and I can categorically state, we cannot make the would idiot proof, no matter what we do...

Cheers,
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Old 01-28-2016, 08:19 AM   #60
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".and I can categorically state, we cannot make the would idiot proof, no matter what we do..."

Why would you want to?

DARWIN improves the breed.
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