8 People on Fly Bridge?

[BandB]

This poster is impressed!!! You are not a 'voyager' by chance (Pun intended)

Al

Wifey B: Voyeur would be the word. Sort of ruins the pun though. No, I don't even pay attention to models but I've gathered the information to discourage young girls from unhealthy eating in a quest to be super thin. Our high schools have quite a bit Anorexia and Bulimia and other eating disorders as young girls start thinking normal is fat and whatever they weigh feels it's too much.

Now, the original post here was a joke and doesn't bother me. However, it does bother me when a 16 year old is 5'8" and weighs 115 and thinks she needs to lose weight and risks her health to try to do so.

Kids were seeing runway models ultra thin and fortunately the fashion shows have turned and will not allow them to model now. I know we've run terribly off topic and apologize for that but continuing with just one final thought.

We, inclusive of all people kids see, set examples. I've seen teen kids constantly concerned about their very normal weight because their mom was obsessed with hers. There are celebrities who have done very dangerous dieting to get very thin, too thin. The emphasis on appearance versus what's inside destroys the self esteem of so many young girls. There are actually clubs in schools in a few areas made up of anorexic and bulimic girls but not as a support group to help them with their disorder, instead as a group to support each other in doing what they have decided is right and supporting the concept that anorexia and bulimia are good.

Now, back to the fly bridge. I'd limit at 4 and that's strictly based on appearance and being careful. To go higher I'd need to see something concrete and proven on the boat in question. We've placed limits on our boats and they're not from the builder or anything else. They're based on size of boat and bridge and various calculations including Australian and available seating. They are likely lower than some would carry, but better to err in that direction than the opposite. The CE certification actually does include number of people but it's for the total boat. They might rate a boat B8 and C10. Beneteau has that type rating on their boats. It's saying 10 people close to shore but 8 offshore. However, once you see the total number then we don't go to the Australian formula that limits those on the bridge to 1/4 but we consider it.

I think the OP showed great listening skills. I do believe he came in wanting confirmation 8 or 6 was ok, but when people responded he decided 4 was his number. I applaud him for that.

A lot of people ask questions but have predetermined their answers and we just spin our wheels responding as they ignore any that don't agree with them.

I'm so suffering boat withdrawal. Help! 25 days and no boating. That's a record for us.

 

[JLD]

A few years ago a Silverton rolled over on the East Coast during a fireworks display due to too many people on the fly bridge. A similar incident occurred off Vancover Island recently when a whale watching vessel rolled over. Lives were lost in both cases.

I had read about this as my current 'crush' is on the Silverton 36/38 Convertibles.

The Silverton that rolled in 2012 was a 34 foot boat that the captain said rolled because of a "rogue" wave. Me thinks that having 27 persons on board was a contributing factor! Unfortunately, three children in the saloon lost their lives. Incredibly, last year another Silverton 34 capsized. This one had 30 persons on board! (fortunately, all survived)

Jim

 

[Al]

Wifey B: Voyeur would be the word. Sort of ruins the pun though. No, I don't even pay attention to models but I've gathered the information to discourage young girls from unhealthy eating in a quest to be super thin. Our high schools have quite a bit Anorexia and Bulimia and other eating disorders as young girls start thinking normal is fat and whatever they weigh feels it's too much.


Point noted and taken. On the other hand, I am just stupefied at the extreme number of not just overweight women wandering the streets, but 'Huge' women who appear to just not care how they appear in public. Yes, yes, I know, 1st amendment. Still from my perspective, they appear unhealthy and the thought going through my mind as I view these folks, is "God, what will the surgeon think as he/she prepare to operate, other than the content of the Hippocratic oath ?"

Al-Ketchikan

 

[BandB]

Point noted and taken. On the other hand, I am just stupefied at the extreme number of not just overweight women wandering the streets, but 'Huge' women who appear to just not care how they appear in public. Yes, yes, I know, 1st amendment. Still from my perspective, they appear unhealthy and the thought going through my mind as I view these folks, is "God, what will the surgeon think as he/she prepare to operate, other than the content of the Hippocratic oath ?"

Al-Ketchikan

Wifey B: There's no first amendment involved in how one looks in public. I see the overweight women and I feel bad for them. It's a very large problem and doctors do nothing really to help them. Until we recognize it as a condition and not a character flaw, we'll never address it. No one wants to be morbidly obese and they do greatly endanger their health. There's a weight for all of us that is our healthy norm. Too slim or too big are both health issues. I know I'm very lucky not to have either problem and I work hard with my hubby for both of us to stay that way. But i do feel for all those struggling with weight.

As to surgery, it changes many procedures dramatically and an obese person gets reminded of it throughout any major procedures. I worked with a teacher I felt so bad for, maybe the best teacher I've ever met.

 

[markpierce]

The wrangler who guided us over the Sierra Nevada Mountains limited rider weight to 200 pounds. I asked him what if about Arnold Schwarzenegger wanted to ride. The wrangler said Arnold would have to walk.

 

[BruceK]

You guys are complicating this. Put as many pax as you like(or don`t like) on the FB. Consequent roll of the boat will flick the excess overboard leaving the correct FB loading complement. This assumes the boat hasn`t capsized or sunk during the "load adjustment" process.

 

[Oldersalt]

Wow! As the OP, I had no idea my innocent little post would generate such a discussion! The idea I like the best is to tow some of the guests in the dinghy. They will get a great view and eat fewer of the snacks. The rest can stay in the cabin and watch the air show thru the side windows.

Seriously, I'm convinced to allow no more than 4 on the fly bridge, and fewer if conditions are rough or the wakes are too big. I have no problem with hanging out a little farther away from the action, so more of the show will be viewable off to the side rather than overhead.

BTW, Grand Banks seems to be very difficult to reach these days, unless you want to buy a new 60-footer. I doubt very much they would have real and/or accurate stability data in any event. I tend to be a pretty cautious skipper and, worst case, I can call all of you as witnesses for the defense in my court case! (grin).

 

[BruceK]

Oldersalt, FWIW I think your FB load rule makes a lot of sense,commonsense that is. A basic rule, with the limit adjusted down as conditions dictate. Happy safe boating!

 

[chriscritchett]

The CE certification actually does include number of people but it's for the total boat.

Just to clarify a little, if the procedures are followed properly, CE capacity calculations are performed with all crew in their 'worst-case' positions unless otherwise noted in the boat's user manual and with highly regulated stickers placed in prominent locations (ladders to the FB, etc.). That means for some tests the crew may be all located up on the FB - if they fit with a reasonable level of crowding assumed - where they raise the CG and thus reduce inherent stability, and for other tests they may be all located outboard along the side decks where they produce the highest possible heeling moment.

And if there is built-in seating with space for 8 on the FB, or enough room for 8 to stand comfortably, then the boat needs to meet criteria with 8 crew up there or else prominently display a limit to instruct the skipper otherwise. The lawyers and their stickers are trying to be pretty informative these days.

It would be very interesting to see how all of our gut feelings on stability and safety compare to the limits set forth in the various regulatory criteria. Unfortunately I for one don't have that kind of time.

 

[BandB]

It would be very interesting to see how all of our gut feelings on stability and safety compare to the limits set forth in the various regulatory criteria. Unfortunately I for one don't have that kind of time.

Well, let's do a Beneteau Swift Trawler 44 then. Here are some basics.

LOA 45'6"
Hull 39'11"
Beam 13'11"
Light Displacement 23,957

Motorboat Swift Trawler 44 - Powerboat Beneteau USA

Scroll down and click on flybridge to get a good look at it.

 

[BandB]

Well, let's do a Beneteau Swift Trawler 44 then. Here are some basics.

LOA 45'6"
Hull 39'11"
Beam 13'11"
Light Displacement 23,957
.

Without cheating I would have set personal limits at 10 people total, maximum of 4 on flybridge when underway, 6 allowed when docked.

CE is B12/C14. So, says 14 inland, 12 offshore. I would never want 14 people aboard a 40' boat.

The Australian formula turns out to be 15 passengers, so maximum of 3 or 4 on flybridge as I don't know what they do with fractional people.

I'd perhaps give in a bit and go to 12 overall, but my limit of 4 on flybridge when underway, 6 when docked, stays.

 

[hmason]

This thread has gotten way too complicated. Put as many people on the bridge as you like as long as as you put an equal number in the engine room.

 

[Art]

This poster is impressed!!! You are not a 'voyager' by chance (Pun intended)

Al

Statistical encyclopedia couple?!?! They seem to now the stats throughout many levels of life.

 

[BandB]

Statistical encyclopedia couple?!?! They seem to now the stats throughout many levels of life.

Wifey B: Hubby corrupted me. We like to research things. He does boats and things and I do oddball things like weights of models and other health kinds of things. If we don't know it, we know where to find it. The model weights I had from trying to convince some young girls they did not need to lose weight.

Living in Paradise, you have to convince young girls of:

1-Don't get carried away and do stupid things to get skinny.
2-Don't tan yourself until you have hide instead of skin and risk future problems.
3-Don't get boob jobs.

We're very much in a bikini zone and every young girl concerned with how she looks in one.

 

[chriscritchett]

Well, let's do a Beneteau Swift Trawler 44 then. Here are some basics.



LOA 45'6"

Hull 39'11"

Beam 13'11"

Light Displacement 23,957



Motorboat Swift Trawler 44 - Powerboat Beneteau USA



Scroll down and click on flybridge to get a good look at it.

Sorry, what I meant was (hypothetically) get our gut feelings based on actually operating the boats under differing load conditions and see how what we experienced compares to the regulatory stability criteria. For instance, the offset load test for that Beneteau probably stipulates that with the entire crew crowded to one side in it's worst-case condition, the heel angle should not exceed (I'm making this number up; I forget the formula) maybe 15 degrees. I'm guessing most of us would absolutely freak out if our passengers went to one side to watch the bikini races and the boat heeled over by 10 degrees. Spooky and unsafe may be entirely different things.

That said, I'd much rather be aboard with this very conservative crowd than the clowns who invite 30 of their closest to head out to sea on that SeaRay (sorry...) that hasn't been used since last Memorial Day.

Well, except that guy may have more supermodels aboard.

 

[dhays]

Wifey B: And now you'll have to correct Flywright too. Bunch of greedy men want 7, when they can't even handle 3.

Likely not, but I'll not admit it until given the chance to be proven wrong.

 

[Art]

Wifey B: Hubby corrupted me. We like to research things. He does boats and things and I do oddball things like weights of models and other health kinds of things. If we don't know it, we know where to find it. The model weights I had from trying to convince some young girls they did not need to lose weight.

Living in Paradise, you have to convince young girls of:

1-Don't get carried away and do stupid things to get skinny.
2-Don't tan yourself until you have hide instead of skin and risk future problems.
3-Don't get boob jobs.

We're very much in a bikini zone and every young girl concerned with how she looks in one.

Within coming weeks, depending on success from current inroads we've opened... I may PM you to see if you can or know how to locate some "stats" my associates and I need to collect. Thanks for telling me/TF a small bit of what you like to "play with"; i.e. staying active enjoyably accomplishing.

 

[steelydon]

This is an important question and the 2012 Silverton incident brings it home in a tragic way. When studying for captains exam I came across a CG-4006 worksheet provided by The USCG for a simplified stability test procedure. Simplified may be an overstatement but you can decide after reading the test procedure.

It may have been said but if your plan for stability is to keep passengers equally disbursed around the boat remember that plan falls apart when something very interesting happens on the other side causing a rush to see.

Anecdotally, there are a lot of small builders on the coast of NC turning out quality boats. Many of these boats are built without plans using what they refer to as the "rack of the eye" method. One old timer indicated that he measured flybridge capacity by placing water barrels on the edge of the FB till the boat listed 14 degrees then the weight of the water determined capacity. No blue barrels? Use a 200 gallon rectangular kiddy pool from Amazon for about $20 and digital gallon counter on the hose to determine how much water is in the pool. I have not vetted this method so perhaps others will respond with their comments.

Good thread!

Don

 

[Ski in NC]

Blue barrels and water are great tools for doing trim tests!!

 

[BandB]

Blue barrels and water are great tools for doing trim tests!!

Before installing some additional equipment in our Sunseeker we used various forms of weights to mimic the equipment we were dealing with and more for people and ran the boat. That included the RIB on the swim platform, the second generator, additional freezers, etc. All results recorded. Now, amazingly enough rolleyes when the real equipment was installed, it performed exactly as we were expecting. This was all after having the factory NA opinion. Just double and triple checking.

Good idea sometimes or you end up like the Baden. It is for sale now by the salvage company. Starting bid $500k.

 

[chriscritchett]

This is an important question and the 2012 Silverton incident brings it home in a tragic way. When studying for captains exam I came across a CG-4006 worksheet provided by The USCG for a simplified stability test procedure. Simplified may be an overstatement but you can decide after reading the test procedure.

Don

Excellent reference, Don - I forgot how straightforward the USCG form is compared to wading thru the ISO / CE standard.

For anyone who can afford to own one of these boats that shouldn't be an onerous amount of math, and the procedure will give you actual information about your boat. A more elaborate, well-articulated, and correct version of what I meant when I said 'you can try it in the slip.'

And, it's a good excuse to spend time fiddling around on the boat rather than the internet...says the guy responding on an Internet forum that's already been pretty well beaten down.

 

[markpierce]

Some boaters may use the flybridge as an "attic." Suggest such storage doesn't exceed four typical male boaters.

 

[koliver]

Some boaters may use the flybridge as an "attic." Suggest such storage doesn't exceed four typical male boaters.

Excellent point Mark.
Mine, eg, has two propane tanks, so 80 lb when full, 8 milk boxes full of necessary stuff, from old paint cans to the polisher I bought years ago and have never used.
Then there are the seat lockers; 2 downriggers, a tackle box, 2 spools of 500 ft of prawn trap line, assorted spare lines of various sizes, for towing, mooring, winching, etc, buckets, fishing nets, a pile of lifejackets, a bag of Laser gear, centerboard, rudder, tiller.
Then the stuff that gets stored out in the open; 4 prawn traps, big buckets, jerry cans of gas, a boathook,

Add the weight of all of this stuff and it will surely amount to more than a couple of typical Canadian males.

Good that my boat weighs 44,000 lb, so I can still invite a couple of friends up onto the FB.

 

[angus99]

Our resident naval architect, Tad Roberts, did a quick stability analysis on a 43-foot Californian carrying a Whaler 110 aloft with an assumed weight of 700 lbs. I recognize this is a static load, not people moving around to watch planes or whales. But it might give some basis for comparison.

Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Whaler 110 Sport, too heavy?

 

[sunchaser]

Our resident naval architect, Tad Roberts, did a quick stability analysis on a 43-foot Californian carrying a Whaler 110 aloft with an assumed weight of 700 lbs. I recognize this is a static load, not people moving around to watch planes or whales. But it might give some basis for comparison.

Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Whaler 110 Sport, too heavy?

Great information Angus. I missed Tad's posting last year on subject. Missing from the calculations is the stuff that comes crashing to the low side as heel angle increases. Somewhere around 50 degrees the people and gear cascade begins I've been told.

 

[Monk38]

Thank you for your post as it is an important one.

The SS Eastland Tragedy killed more than the Titanic. She rolled over at the dock.

Be it a Southbound rounding of Cape Hatteras doubting the stability of a 132' TriDeck or the Gulf of Tehuantepec railing a 98' Motor yacht, one gets to thinking about metacentric height (GM) and how to improve it to increase initial stability against overturning.

On Carpe Diem, Monk 38, I have lowered the battery bank (while increasing number of automatic bilge pumps to 4) and removed the crane and chocks designed to carry the dingy aloft on the boat deck and will now carry the tender on a stern platform. This further improves stability already proven stability on multiple Gulf Stream crossings and allow for faster and safer deployment of the tender in an emergency.

 

[psneeld]

Great information Angus. I missed Tad's posting last year on subject. Missing from the calculations is the stuff that comes crashing to the low side as heel angle increases. Somewhere around 50 degrees the people and gear cascade begins I've been told.

Heck, at 15 drgrees if the roll is snappy enough stuff starts to move around on many boats I think.

So if your boat and passengers arent ready for the rolls, even pretty common sized waves/wakes can shift weight. Though I dont think the average small vessel mimicks the hoollywod version of the coffee comercial scenario.

Last soring when I had to anchor in a 3 to 4 foot chop the was broadside to the current, anything that wasnt fixed or tied down moved. The microwave which is pretty snug back in a corner managed to launch and hit the fwd head door not much down from the galley counter height.that was just one of all the little things flying. We normally never are in conditions like that so I have gotten lazy....even bad wakes arent bad enough to launch stuff if I do anything to lessen their effect.

The good news, the boat snapeed back do rapidlyI know with all my stowage and mods to the flybridge, fuel tanks and battery stowage.....stability to something beyond 30 degrees is certain.

I already knew 3 to 4s on the beam were awful, now I just have to organize a better energency anchoring setup for similar conditions near lee shores....

PS....yes I can think of plenty.....just what, how to store and rig quickly, how to recover easily when the towboat/fix arrives, etc.....

 

[chriscritchett]

But on the upside that snappy roll tends to mean you have gobs of transverse stability, at least at those heel angles. Shape of your boat and other factors will determine whether that remains true as the angle increases.

It's when the roll slows down, and maybe goes a bit farther than you were expecting, that you need to get worried.

 

[psneeld]

Thanks, I know, the center of buoyancy because of hull shape is influencing the most in my situation.

 

[MichaelB1969]

Without cheating I would have set personal limits at 10 people total, maximum of 4 on flybridge when underway, 6 allowed when docked.



CE is B12/C14. So, says 14 inland, 12 offshore. I would never want 14 people aboard a 40' boat.



The Australian formula turns out to be 15 passengers, so maximum of 3 or 4 on flybridge as I don't know what they do with fractional people.



I'd perhaps give in a bit and go to 12 overall, but my limit of 4 on flybridge when underway, 6 when docked, stays.

FWIW, as a Swift 44 owner I'd have no problem with 6 on the bridge underway, 8 when docked. For reference, there is actually seating for 8 (3 around the table, 3 on the opposite bench and 2 in the helm chairs.

That said, I'm wrestling with how many people I want on the boat for Fleet Week next week. I might take my son's friends out. There are 9 kids altogether, including muy son. They are 16 year olds and probably weigh on average 140 pounds.

Even though they are really good kids, I'd definitely want at least one more, maybe two adults to accompany me. So looking at 9 kids and 3 adults. I think that's doable without any safety concern, especially given we are in the Bay and it is typically mild in October (winds die down in the Bay). Just need to recheck how many life jackets I have on board.

I'd be okay with 6 or 7 on the bridge, especially if I instructed them not to all hang over one side!

To be honest I'm much more concerned with getting hit by some yahoo carving through all the boats as it gets crowded. After all, I'm the person who got hit by a sailboat under power while I was at anchor!

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/just-got-hit-head-sailboat-31979.html