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Old 06-17-2010, 07:11 PM   #41
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Okay...I think I may have done this right.* Here's a few pics.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:33 AM   #42
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Nice one. All good so far. Welcome to the club. Just remember....it's all meant to be fun. You will almost certainly find the odd annoying thing missed by the survey, with a bit of mild disappointment, but probably nothing unsurmountable, so don't be too discouraged with the odd hiccup. Keep us informed. It does llok and sound like you have got quite a bargain there.
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:43 PM   #43
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Quote:
Rocky wrote:

Surveyor told us the Lehman 120s were one of the best diesel out there.
There are differing opinions on that, but since you have one you need to learn the phone number of American Diesel.* Bob Smith and his son Brian know more about the various Lehman marinizations of engines than any other two people on the planet.* Bob Smith designed much of*the*engines' marinization components when he worked at Lehman Brothers way back when, so he is intimately familiar with the FL120, FL135, etc.* American Diesel is also the best source for parts, from exhaust elbows to replacement water pumps.

There are a several improvements one can make to an FL120, which in my opinon is a bit like polishing a turd, but they are worthwhile improvements nevertheless.* We've made most of them to our two FL120s.

*
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:52 PM   #44
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Thanks to you both. I've printed up the webpage for American Diesel for my file. We're hoping to get everything finalized Monday or Tuesday, hopefully no hiccups with the lender, so far all looks good. We certainly have our work cut out for us on this one, may be an excellent buy, but we know we have lots of elbow grease to put out on this one.
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:06 PM   #45
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Mr.*Marin,
** What specificaly are the "several improvements" you can make to the 120 Lehman please?
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:30 PM   #46
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7 years without any attention or maintenance

1. Replace the stock Jabsco raw water pump/Lehman pump drive with a one-piece Johnson pump. The Jabsco pump can be rebuilt or purchased new but the Lehman pump drive (designed by Bob Smith) is unobtainium. The drive tang on the pump drive that mates to the pump can---- or will, according to Bob--- eventually crack and break off at which point the raw water pump stops pumping right now, the engine overheats quickly and Bad Things happen. The drive unit is no longer available anywhere other than off another engine, and repairing the broken drive tang is apparently a short-lived fix at best. So the solution is to get rid of the whole deal and install a new, one-piece Johnson pump in it's place. The FL-120 uses the 3/4" pump and the FL-135 uses the 1" pump. However, the 1" pump will fit on an FL-120, which is what we did on our engines when it was discovered that the drive tang on one of our drive units was cracked. The resulting higher water flow doesn't seem to affect the operating temperature of the engines, but it does make the transmissions run noticeably cooler (by feel), which is a Good Thing.

2. Replace the stock header tank neck, cap, and overflow line with an expansion/recovery bottle system kit. This changes the simple "blow it out the tube" expansion system the engine was built with to a modern-style recovery system. The stock neck and cap do not allow coolant to be drawn back into the tank as the engine cools, which is why you have to replace the neck liner and cap, rather than just put a recovery bottle on the existing overflow tube.

We bought a pair of these kits years ago but have not gotten around to installing them because I don't want to take the boat out of service long enough to do it in the time I have available for these kinds of projects. Instead we put an extension on the stock overflow tube and feed it into an empty oil bottle in the engine drip pan. We then simply pour the overflow fluid back into the header tank before the next run and bleed the air out of the exhaust*manifold by cracking the bleed valve on top of it (which I think should be done before every day's startup anyway). The conversion kit makes for a great "hands free" expansion/recovery system, I've just been too lazy to install them.

3. Block off the stock breather pipe on the Simms injection pump. (This is the in-line jerk injection pump as opposed to the CAV rotary pump installed on some FL120s.) Because of the rearward tilt of the engine, filling the injection pump to the level port results in too much oil in it, and it sits at the rear of the pump body. So as the pump operates, it blows this excess oil out the breather pipe and makes a mess. Bob Smith advised me to block off the stock breather by removing the hollow retaining bolt, removing the banjo fitting and replacing it with a stainless nut with the right inside diameter. Put a soft washer on either side of the nut and install the hollow retaining bolt again. The nut and washers keep the oil from seeping out of the holllow bolt.* The reason to use the original hollow bolt is that, with the nut in place of the banjo fitting, the bolt will extend the proper amount into the case.

The pump still needs to be able to breathe so Bob said to drill a small hole in the center of the large round filler plug in the top of the pump body. This is the slotted plug you remove with a large-bladed screwdriver to pour in new lube oil when you change the oil every 50 hours. Turned out the filler plugs on our engines had already been drilled at some point, so we didn't have to do that step.

4. Put an O-ring on the Simms pump filler plug. Many of them don't have one and the plug can "stick" to the pump body and be extremely difficult to break free when you're doing an oil change. Particularly with a twin engine GB where there is not a lot of clearance between the top of the starboard engine and the cabin sole up above, so there's no room to put a truly large screwdriver. I fought this for years until somebody on the GB forum said to just put an O-ring under the lip of the filler plug and end of problem.

5. Use cupro-nickel lube oil and transmission fluid coolers instead of the less-expensive copper ones. Cupro-nickel costs more but lasts a lot longer.

6. Install larger diameter oil hoses (available from American Diesel) from the upside-down oil filter holder to the engine. This supposedly improves the flow rate of the lube oil through the filter. We have not done this.

7. Install a fitting on the sump pan of the FL-120 so that a valve and drain hose can be installed to make pumping the old lube oil out during an oil change a much faster process than using a vacuum or pump system pulling through a narrow tube down the dipstick tube. We have not done this.

Of all these, the ones Bob and Brian Smith told me were the two best things one can do for an FL-120 is install the recovery bottle kit and replace the original raw water pump and drive with a Johnson pump.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 18th of June 2010 05:46:56 PM
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:38 PM   #47
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Mr. Marin,
** Many, many thanks.
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:13 PM   #48
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Marin,
We have an extraction pump on our new engine in a way wish we didn't. It's only a little bit faster but it's like an extra through hull * * *... who know whats going to happen (Murphy's out there) and all of a sudden your oil may be in the bilge. You have 2 engines w almost 30 quarts total capacity and I can see how you may think it's a bit slow. But it's better and safer to use the vacuum pump.*

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Old 06-19-2010, 12:24 PM   #49
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7 years without any attention or maintenance

Eric---

I agree with you and this is one reason we have not pursued the installation of the sump valve/drain setup. Pretty hard to go wrong with a big bolt in the pan to keep the oil from leaking out.

Also a friend who sold his boat awhile back gave us the Jabsco electric pump-on-a-bucket thing he'd purchased for oil changes.* It still pulls the oil out through the dipstick tube but at least I don't have to keep pumping up (or is it down?) the vaccum level in the extraction pump we used previously.

Another modification some people have made to their FL120s is the installation of a drain valve on the bottom of the engine's Simms injection pump to make the 50-hour injection pump oil changes faster and easier. If one installs the Johnson raw water pump on the engine there is no longer enough clearance for any sort of drain valve setup under the injection pump, so it's not an option for us. But I wouldn't do it anyway for the reason you state--- the lower the risk of something dumping its lube oil, the better.

The injection pump is another thing I hate about the FL120, by the way. It was a state-of-the-art design at the time (mid-1950s) but today it's just a pain in the a*s. Not so much the fact the oil has to be changed every 50 hours--- it's an easy job that doesn't take much time--- but because of how careful you have to be when you do it. The threads in the drain and level holes are very soft. I don't believe the pump body is cast from aluminum, but whatever it is, it's a pretty soft metal. So it's very easy to strip the threads in the two holes, at which point the plugs no longer fit tightly. And if the drain plug backs out, that's the end of an extremely expensive pump--- it's the singe most expensive component on the engine to replace or rebuild.

This is the reason it's imperative to use a new soft (our shop recommends aluminum) washer every time the drain plug in particular is replaced. This helps ensure that the plug will make a good seal and stay seated firmly in the hole without needing the kind of torque that could damage the threads. If you don't use a new soft washer, the old one gets compressed and then it starts taking more torque to seat the plug securely and you get that much closer to the point of thread damage.

In today's world, it's a very bad design execution, and is one of the several reasons I never recommend to anyone that they buy a boat with an FL120 in it.* At least not one with an FL120 and the Simms injection pump, which unfortunately is most of them.* The FL135 does not use this particular type of injection pump. It's similar, but it's lubed by the engine itself so the whole 50-hour oil change requirement is eliminated.

A few people I know of have modified their FL120s so that the Simms pump gets oil circulated through it by the engine, but the setups I've seen to do this have struck me as being pretty Rube Goldberg in design so we have stayed with the stock setup and I'm just real careful when I reinstall the plugs.

The Simms pump doesn't always say "Simms" on it, by the way.* There apparently was some merging and aquisition activity during the period the Ford Dorset engine that is the base engine for the FL120 was being made.* So if my memory is correct, it started out as a Minimec pump, then became a Simms pump, and then became a CAV pump.* This pump was, of course, a component installed on the base engine by Ford of England.* It's not part of the Lehman marinization kit.* So the Dorset engines used in tractors and combines and cranes and whatnot all had it, too.




-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 19th of June 2010 12:42:13 PM
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Old 06-20-2010, 03:50 AM   #50
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

HMMM, Reading the list of fixes most seem to be from the marinization choices.

Econ o power indeed.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:01 AM   #51
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Marin,I had a Sabre 120 (w 380 Ford base engine) and it had a welded SS exhaust manifold. It also had engine oil to the injection pump standard. It also had a real classy heat exchanger on it's nose but I didn't like the fact that it was aluminum. I now abide by my new rule " no aluminum on inboard engines. I make exception to my present Mitsu's aluminum valve cover.


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Old 06-20-2010, 11:38 AM   #52
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7 years without any attention or maintenance

Quote:
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HMMM, Reading the list of fixes most seem to be from the marinization choices.

Econ o power indeed.
Yes they are.* Remember, this engine was marinized in the 1960s.* So closed-loop coolant recovery systems were not all that common even in vehicles, for example.

The stock Simms pump oil breather fitting is fine when the engine is mounted level in a vehicle.* It's only when the rear of the engine is permanently slanted down a fair amount as in a boat mounting that it can get messy.

The Lehman raw water pump drive design made sense--- on paper anyway--- at the time, but Brian Smith, who designed it, today says in retrospect it's a bad design.* And it was extremely difficult to manufacture, he said.* He told me it was the only component of a Ford Lehman 120 to ever have a factory recall (by Lehman, not by Ford).* The original pump drive (the Jabsco pump that's bolted to it is fine) is the Achilles heel of the marinzation kit because its design ensures it will fail eventually.* The problem is the potential damage that can occur when it does fail, because the one absolutely sure way to kill an FL120 is to overheat it.* And the engine alarms are such that--- like most alarms--- they alert you to the fact that your engine has just been destroyed.* So hoping that the overheat alarm will alert you if the drive tang on the raw water pump drive breaks off will only alert you to the fact that your engine's overheated to the point of damage.

This is one reason we use a little oven timer set to go off every five minutes to remind the person at the helm to check the engine instruments.* Three of our four engine shutdowns in the last twelve years have been for cooing problems.* Fortunately, we saw the temperature begining to climb and shut off the engine well before it reached the danger point.* Even though we have installed the much more reliable Johnson raw water pump on our engines, the three cooling problems we had had nothing to do with the raw water pump so we continue the practice of frequently monitoring the instruments.* I actually monitor them much more frequently than five minutes thanks to my time flying airplanes, but it's easy to get distracted by the scenery or talking to friends on board or whatever so the little alarm keeps us honest.

The O-ring under the pump's filler plug may have been used originally by Ford or perhaps they had a little washer or gasket or something.* But on many FL120s these have long since disappeared, hence the suggestion to put one on.



-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 20th of June 2010 11:43:24 AM
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Old 06-20-2010, 01:28 PM   #53
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

Mr. Marin,
** Used to have cooing problems myself until the pigeon loft burnt down....Sorry, couldn't resist.***Beyond*what angle does the Simms pump exibit problems?
*** Thanks
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Old 06-20-2010, 03:39 PM   #54
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

I have a Jabsco belt driven RW pump and figure waaay ahead of time when a standard V belt is going south. The only advantage I can see is one of the *2 bolts that attach the pump could fatigue, break and leave me overheated. Very unlikely though. I can go into almost any small village in Alaska and Get a new impeller.

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Old 06-21-2010, 04:06 AM   #55
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RE: 7 years without any attention or maintenance

"This is one reason we use a little oven timer set to go off every five minutes to remind the person at the helm to check the engine instruments. Three of our four engine shutdowns in the last twelve years have been for cooing problems. Fortunately, we saw the temperature begining to climb and shut off the engine well before it reached the danger point."

Why not simply switch to Murphy Switch Gages , and use lower skilled boat watchers?

The Murphy's will sound an alarm at what ever you set , and if you wish secure the engine .

No knowledge or instrument scanning skills needed , works for the USCG.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:43 AM   #56
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7 years without any attention or maintenance

Quote:
RT Firefly wrote:*Beyond*what angle does the Simms pump exibit problems?
*** Thanks
It isn't' a problem, really, it just can make a mess when the oil that's above the level of the breather gets blown out.* If I recall correctly, the breather fitting is a bit higher on the pump cover than the fill level plug.* So I suppose you could draw a line between the breather and the level plug and when the line became level as you tilted the back of the engine down, that would be the angle you're asking about.* Lot of trouble to do this, though.....*

Some boats put their engines at more of an angle than others.* In our twin-engine GB, the engines sit at a not-insignificant angle.* It doesnt' look like much when you're in the engine room, but when the boat's on the hard and you look at the angle the prop shafts are at, it's a pretty good angle.* Other boats, probably singles in particular, might not have the engines at such an angle.

I assume the oil-breather wasn't an issue in vehicles since they were angling up, down, and level al the time*as they were operated and the lube oil was getting thrown around on the pump's drive mechanism.* Plus any oil that came out of the breather ended up on the ground so nobody cared.

It's a more constant issue when the engine sits all the time at a rearward slant.* Because the base engine for the FL120 (the Ford of England Dorset engine) proved to be a failure as a truck engine, most of them ended up in agricultural or industrial applications.* Most if not all these applications held the engine in a horizontal attitude all the time.

Also, it's the nature of the Simms beast to wear down*its injection plunger and bore walls as the pump runs. The plungers are lubricated in their bores by the fuel they are pumping, not by the oil in the sump which is there only*to lubricate the pump's plunger drive system.* (This is why it's important that the fuel that goes through an FL120 have a high level of lubricity--- it minimizes the plunger/bore wear although it won't eliminate it completely.)

As the plungers and bores wear, fuel can escape down the bore past the plunger and end up in the lube oil.* This dilutes it and also gradually increases the volume of lube oil.* This is why the *manual specifies a 50 hour pump oil change interval--- it ensures that, even in a pump that is nearing the end of its life in terms of plunger and bore wear, the lube oil will still do a good job of lubing the drive mechanism.

Anyway, as fuel gets into the lube oil, the level goes up, so more stuff is blown out the breather hole.

Blocking off the stock breather and providing another breather at the top of the pump *doesn't cure an inherent problem with the pump, it just eliminates a potential source of oil mess*down in the drip pan or wherever the pipe runing down*from the stock breather happens to go.* It's not a big deal, it's just a nice modification that can be made if the breather is the source of oil in the drip pan or wherever.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 21st of June 2010 11:53:00 AM
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