6' draft in the Bahamas and Caribbean...

[Jeffrey S]

How do brokers have reviews on sites that aren't up yet? What am I missing?

We've been experimenting with a few service categories for a couple of years without giving any attention to it - it was another website I built to test some ideas. The starting reviews here come from that - there aren't that many but the users accounts are identical and it puts a few reviews into the system at startup.

 

[BruceK]

The word here for what happened to Mimi is, she was "gazumped".
It is most often seen in real estate where the agreement is only binding when the contract is "exchanged" (ie each party has an identical document signed by the other, and dated) and deposit paid. At the last moment a fresh buyer comes in and exchanges first. Sometimes a broker conducts a "mini auction" between 2 buyers, half the problem is convincing a buyer they really have a competitor, due to common perceptions of brokers (other than TF CMs of course).
In this case, I don`t know how the offer was "accepted", with no knowledge of local law could not take it further even if I did.

 

[Ski in NC]

Buyer signs contract and sends to seller. Get a verbal acceptance. No contract in force at this point. No ink from buyer, no contract.

Seller signs contract and sends a copy back to buyer. Now you have a binding contract. Seller is obligated to sell the boat per the contract terms.

Non lawyer, non broker opinion above.

 

[pilothouse king]

Buyer signs contract and sends to seller. Get a verbal acceptance. No contract in force at this point. No ink from buyer, no contract.

Seller signs contract and sends a copy back to buyer. Now you have a binding contract. Seller is obligated to sell the boat per the contract terms.

Non lawyer, non broker opinion above.

Every contract needs "consideration" aka a deposit. Without this there is no contract. It's why we highly recommend wiring one immediately. Many people prefer to gamble and bring it in hand and many people are too late. Even those coming from just across state sometimes arrive only to discover somebody else performed while they were driving. People falsely assume themselves the only buyer and think they're being pressured unduly by brokers for trying to point out there's others "sniffing". It happened to me (as a buyer)yesterday!
Now that inventory is short you will see it more often. "What else ya got in the same range?" Nothing.

 

[West]

Seller signs contract and sends a copy back to buyer. Now you have a binding contract. Seller is obligated to sell the boat per the contract terms.
Non lawyer, non broker opinion above.

Since the contract had conditions attached to it: survey, sea trial etc, it was only a conditional offer to purchase and not a firm and binding agreement.
A lot of laws interpret conditions as "bilateral" on either party, meaning that as long as there are conditions of any sort, either party can walk.

Not sure how those legal interpretations apply in Florida and the boat business though.

 

[BandB]

Since the contract had conditions attached to it: survey, sea trial etc, it was only a conditional offer to purchase and not a firm and binding agreement.
A lot of laws interpret conditions as "bilateral" on either party, meaning that as long as there are conditions of any sort, either party can walk.

Not sure how those legal interpretations apply in Florida and the boat business though.

Actually the survey dependency is a limited condition and not bilateral unless such is indicated. Obviously all depends on the face of the contract. But the key is one has to have both signatures and consideration as stated above. So sending one to a broker who says it looks good isn't a contract. It's only an offer.

 

[Last Tango]

I have had an Island Trader 41' ketch for 29 years and was raised in the Bahamas. I have cruised most everywhere in Bahamas paying close attention to tide charts and especially existing and forecasted winds. And a good lookout for coral heads. Did I ever run aground? of course.. Did I ever spend the night heeled over and waiting? Of course. Did I ever damage her? Nope.

Unless you run her up on a reef, or hit a coral head, you're likely to just bump a sand bottom. I've slowly bumped my way across the flats a time or two. Never a worry on the Mai Tai Two with her full keel. Fin keels and hanging rudders are a different worry.

Yes, you may have some cruising limitations in the Bahamas, but if she is a sound vessel with a displacement hull, you'll lover her in the open waters in the Caribbean.

Always get a new survey, in and out of the water.

 

[cafesport]

Apparently the builder has a buyer in Australia. He wants to have a Bering in Australia to show in that market. They used my signed offer to get their buyer to move. If he'd have balked I'd have gotten the boat and either way the Broker makes his deal. Business? Yeah, I guess.
In any event, I've had my say.
And thanks for the condolences ;-)
I'm not gonna sue. I've got the tickets, I booked the room, I took the time off.... I'm going to go down to FLA and look at some boats!

To avoid having this happen to you ever again I suggest hiring a buyers broker. Secure his/her services by placing 5 or 10% of your estimated purchase price into the firms escrot account and you'll have a very motivated partner. Having just sold a boat I can tell you that unless there is money held in escrot you can't force someone to sell you a boat. Even then, there is wiggle room.


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[Moonstruck]

Can some one explain to me how a boat can be sold when they have accepted a contract to sell to another buyer? Seems to me Mimi has grounds to sue for breach of contract to cover her costs.

I certainly would not want to deal with this broker or his brokerage.

Unless I have missed something here, if they accepted a subject to offer it should not be sold while under contract. If the buyer has held up his end of the deal, so should the seller. This sounds a little screwy.

Blake, am I wrong here?

 

[BandB]

Unless I have missed something here, if they accepted a subject to offer it should not be sold while under contract. If the buyer has held up his end of the deal, so should the seller. This sounds a little screwy.

Blake, am I wrong here?

Doesn't sound like definitely they accepted an offer. Sounds like perhaps broker received it and gave a positive indication but we haven't had confirmed that seller signed off on it or that buyer made a deposit on the boat. OP perhaps can clarify those points.

 

[Mimi]

To all who have followed or contributed to this thread, I wanted to say thank you for the advice, and esprit de corps. I made a number of mistakes in trying to buy that 55' Bering, that I won't make again. And while there were some ambiguities, I don't think Brad Nelson at American Yacht & Ship tried to mislead me. I met with him to look at a boat this weekend! He's an awesome resource, with in depth knowledge share, and a stand up guy!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Apparently the builder has a buyer in Australia. He wants to have a Bering in Australia to show in that market. They used my signed offer to get their buyer to move. If he'd have balked I'd have gotten the boat and either way the Broker makes his deal. Business? Yeah, I guess.
In any event, I've had my say.
And thanks for the condolences ;-)
I'm not gonna sue. I've got the tickets, I booked the room, I took the time off.... I'm going to go down to FLA and look at some boats!

AWESOME ATTITUDE MIMI,
A wonderful example to learn from and I do believe you will find a much better boat in all of this !!

 

[FF]

Florida is by far the lowest cost place to buy a boat.

Lack of use and of course no storage prep on the engine , noisemaker and other systems .

 

[pilothouse king]

AWESOME ATTITUDE MIMI,
A wonderful example to learn from and I do believe you will find a much better boat in all of this !!

I don't know about "better" but it will certainly be different. Your never going to see a 2010 55' steel single engine yacht built to such a high quality fit and finish for this price again. This was a unique geopolitical (Russian owner of company) opportunity who's time has passed, the same as the Brazilian named Mares who was building big powercats back in the 90s, or as Chairman Miao (aka Chairman kitty cat) was doing with yacht building in Taiwan-both basically as hobbies and on whims. I don't see any mad fun money (every build sold at a loss) being tossed around toward boat building anymore. Cars-whether new or collecting-hell yes.

 

[Mimi]

It was a very nice boat....

 

[N4712]

I don't know about "better" but it will certainly be different. Your never going to see a 2010 55' steel single engine yacht built to such a high quality fit and finish for this price again. This was a unique geopolitical (Russian owner of company) opportunity who's time has passed, the same as the Brazilian named Mares who was building big powercats back in the 90s, or as Chairman Miao (aka Chairman kitty cat) was doing with yacht building in Taiwan-both basically as hobbies and on whims. I don't see any mad fun money (every build sold at a loss) being tossed around toward boat building anymore. Cars-whether new or collecting-hell yes.

You wont ever find one like it again with that attitude!

 

[pilothouse king]

You wont ever find one like it again with that attitude!

Facts aren't "attitude". You tell me who's building boats today in that size range willing to lose money on every build. This boat was owned by a Russian builder who finished her in 2010. Most American builders "gave it up" back in 2008-2009", although Navigator hung on until 2013, but Marshall didn't build them just for fun. The Ferreti Group and Sunseeker are now owned by Chinese. I just no longer see anybody building experiments out of their own pockets as guys like Mares, Aronow, Miao, and some Russians and Ukranians did. I personally liquidated some big Mares Cats, several big Lien Hwas, same on a 09 Fountain 48 (built in08). I sold a 2010 Meridian 58 even though Brunswick didn't build any after 08. I was trying to do the same with this Bering, but all my prospects had excuses.
Many boat builders you might think are still in business are in reality now just websites.
BUT I do see Elon Musk building Teslas and there's a dozen other guys building very high end performance cars that are yacht kind of money. Sometimes once in a lifetime opportunities are just that.

 

[dwhatty]

Every contract needs "consideration" aka a deposit. Without this there is no contract.

In Maine, at least, the "consideration" can be the mutual promises to sell and to buy. $$$ not necessary.

 

[pilothouse king]

In Maine, at least, the "consideration" can be the mutual promises to sell and to buy. $$$ not necessary.

Tell that to Judge Judy. , but in fact this boat was in Florida, owned by a offshore corporation so the laws elsewhere are moot. One of my big business life lessons was taught me by Su Ling Li (I was his partner, and Miao was his )of Lien Hwa-and their attorney's. You can have all the contracts you want signed, notarized with money sitting in the bank and whatnot, but IF the intentions of either party aren't sincere then they mean nothing, then the "he with the most lawyers" rule usually prevails. Or in the case of either party not being a US citizen with the items not in the possession of the other, it's not that easy for redress. He then told me the story of how they were defrauded by a guy in Alabama over a shipload of rice. Turns out that one of the richest most savvy businessman in the world with all the signed proper contracts got taken by a 'good ole boy' and there was no rice.
So in reality a handshake and a napkin works when the intentions of both parties are sincere. Big time drug deals aren't done on paper either. There's honor then there's the other.

 

[BruceK]

... And while there were some ambiguities, I don't think Brad Nelson at American Yacht & Ship tried to mislead me. I met with him to look at a boat this weekend! He's an awesome resource, with in depth knowledge share, and a stand up guy!

"Misleading" can be by a direct statement, or staying silent where silence is inappropriate. So, if you were in competition with another buyer, who had the special advantage he would show the sellers boat to a whole new market, and your offer was being used to motivate that buyer, and you were spending $ making arrangements to travel to inspect and retain expert surveyors etc, would you like silence, or frank disclosure.
Of course the broker is the sellers broker and his sole duty is to the seller, but you`d hope the broker could find a way to "do the right thing" by you as well.
As you still have full faith in the broker, perhaps there is more information, such as realizing in hindsight that the broker was attempting to warn you.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I don't know about "better" but it will certainly be different. Your never going to see a 2010 55' steel single engine yacht built to such a high quality fit and finish for this price again. This was a unique geopolitical (Russian owner of company) opportunity who's time has passed, the same as the Brazilian named Mares who was building big powercats back in the 90s, or as Chairman Miao (aka Chairman kitty cat) was doing with yacht building in Taiwan-both basically as hobbies and on whims. I don't see any mad fun money (every build sold at a loss) being tossed around toward boat building anymore. Cars-whether new or collecting-hell yes.

All I ment was that MIMI CAN find another boat that she Can like even better.....There is more then one great boat........

 

[Jeffrey S]

Big time drug deals aren't done on paper either.

Except the consequence of getting shot in the head is usually a little more incentive to do the right thing than getting a threatening letter from an attorney.

Not that I'd want to live in a world like this, but imagine if the broker knew that he'd face mr-nice-guy-looking-for-a-trawler holding a '45 against his forehead by taking the sale out from under him like he did. Think things would have turned out a little different?

 

[N4712]

Facts aren't "attitude". You tell me who's building boats today in that size range willing to lose money on every build. This boat was owned by a Russian builder who finished her in 2010. Most American builders "gave it up" back in 2008-2009", although Navigator hung on until 2013, but Marshall didn't build them just for fun. The Ferreti Group and Sunseeker are now owned by Chinese. I just no longer see anybody building experiments out of their own pockets as guys like Mares, Aronow, Miao, and some Russians and Ukranians did. I personally liquidated some big Mares Cats, several big Lien Hwas, same on a 09 Fountain 48 (built in08). I sold a 2010 Meridian 58 even though Brunswick didn't build any after 08. I was trying to do the same with this Bering, but all my prospects had excuses.
Many boat builders you might think are still in business are in reality now just websites.
BUT I do see Elon Musk building Teslas and there's a dozen other guys building very high end performance cars that are yacht kind of money. Sometimes once in a lifetime opportunities are just that.

I ain't buying, what you're trying to sell me...There will be another great deal out there, just takes time and patience... Anyways, by the way that engine room was designed, the builder was better off not building. Looks like their motto was out of sight out of mind...

 

[pilothouse king]

Except the consequence of getting shot in the head is usually a little more incentive to do the right thing than getting a threatening letter from an attorney.

Not that I'd want to live in a world like this, but imagine if the broker knew that he'd face mr-nice-guy-looking-for-a-trawler holding a '45 against his forehead by taking the sale out from under him like he did. Think things would have turned out a little different?

You do realize I was a Yacht Broker in Miami for 30 years (til 6/14) don't you? Isn't that scenario normal? You know what happened to Don Aronow don't you? Back in the 80's it was especially quite interesting. You must read Tim Dorsey novels to appreciate Florida. It's a trip. Anything goes, especially in Miami. Everybody is strapped. It's a fun world.

 

[pilothouse king]

I ain't buying, what you're trying to sell me...There will be another great deal out there, just takes time and patience... Anyways, by the way that engine room was designed, the builder was better off not building. Looks like their motto was out of sight out of mind...

If you say so, but all the boats and classic cars exported oversea's the past ten years prove that others are faster on the draw. All us brokers WISH there were more boats out there to sell. ALL the new leftovers are gone or have rotted away. Factor in steel boats with single engines. fugetaboutit.

 

[cafesport]

I think that's why this boat languished next to million dollar sea rays that banks were lined to to loan on. Probably sold for the same price as chicken 4 to 5 bucks a pound.


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[pilothouse king]

related, but different

In the vein of very rare late model single engined yachts 55' long there's a 2011 Navigator 55' with a single diesel for sale in Seattle that just lowered it's price to $550k. I expect it will sell soon, but due to its location likely will not be going to Australia like so many boats on the east coast. I doubt if they built more than two of these before they went out of business.
Negative? Rather narrow beam at 15', the steel Bering was huge inside due to its beam. Plus? Rather good looking boat, 55' and a very late model build. I'm NOT the listing broker.

 

[roguewave]

Those Aussies and Kiwi's move FAST. This is something I've warned repeatedly on my website and other forums. Many of them buy sight unseen and don't even survey. That's why all the best boats from the SE are now 'down under'. IF our dollar wasn't so strong now- more boats would be gone too.

I was tracking this beauty till I found it sold and went to NZ.

1983 DeFever 1983 52 Plus 7 Yu Ching Marine DeFever powerboat for sale in North Carolina

 

[N4712]

PHKing funny, look what I found....
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/Vripack-54-2726458/Ft-Lauderdale/FL/United-States#.VMP0cYE8KrU

 

[pilothouse king]

PHKing funny, look what I found....
1993 Vripack 54 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

She's a beautiful boat but I don't understand the relevance as any sorta comp as we were talking leftover late model single engine boats. Your really aren't trying to compare a 2010 basically new boat with a single engine to a 1993 model with twin Iveceo engines and 3300 hours are you? There's tons of "twenty something "year old boats for sale. That's the problem with the brokerage market as most folks with cash to burn prefer as new as possible but for used boat kind of money, and few were built, and fewer still exist in the USA. There's plenty of old big boats you likely could get for free (or pretty damn cheap) if you just asked. Especially metal ones.
Lets see which boat sells first-the 2011 55' asking $550k, or this 1993 55' boat asking $595k which has already supposedly been refit (how many times by now? Things are only original or virgins once). I know that everytime I've bought an old boat, most of my time and money has been to undo the previous owners "upgrades" to start it again from scratch. On cars and boats if they don't have albums of photos showing the restoration-I assume the worst.
In ten years from now one will only be 14 years old, the other? When you purchased that lovely Nordhavn why didn't you instead buy a much older boat for more money?