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Old 08-29-2015, 09:31 AM   #21
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Most people would be surprised at how many "suspicious" events like this occur.


Hard to tell from the news report.....but in 70 feet of water....some anwers might be available after a couple dives are made.
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:44 AM   #22
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What gets me is this, the Capt. Seen the vessel was not riding right and settling in the water. From what I have read thus far and seen, the Capt. Never tried to contact the 40’ fishing vessel to seen anything was wrong.


The Capt. Of the 40’ fishing vessel may have been unconscious below beck we simply do not know. I feel the Capt. should have tried to contact the vessel or at least contact the USCG about the vessel, not simply just watch it! These two actions would not have endangered his vessel or his crew or made him liable for anything.


Now I do not want to be too hard on the Capt. He may have tried to contact that 40’ vessel, again we do not know, but he sure as heck did not say that in his statement to the press.


I am with O.D. I could not sit by without doing something if someone may be in trouble and I am sure many of us here on T.F. feel the same way.


Happy and safe cruising.
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:51 AM   #23
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Too many unknowns....

Wasn't the bystander the Capt of a party fishing boat?

To be fair...if the other boat was only "suspicious" for a vertical short time...this guy might have had his hands full and made a mental note...and by the time he looked again..it was going dow.

News reports are terribly misleading sometimes.....too many unknowns for me to even speculate beyond this.

Another thin report....

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...322948221.html

Based on the 2 reports...sounds like the timeline was very short.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:02 AM   #24
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Too many unknowns....

Wasn't the bystander the Capt of a party fishing boat?

To be fair...if the other boat was only "suspicious" for a vertical short time...this guy might have had his hands full and made a mental note...and by the time he looked again..it was going dow.

News reports are terribly misleading sometimes.....too many unknowns for me to even speculate beyond this.
I agree with the unknowns and I believe so on the party fishing boat. However, how long does it take to key a mic? The key word is "suspicious" and in the words of the Capt. himself, the vessel was not riding right and settling.

So I take it from that statement he understood something was wrong with the vessel and well as his statement of "He had never seen a boat go down so fast" that he was able to tell when a vessel is taking on water.

I also agree the press will mess things up, but thus far they all have said about the same thing.

Happy cruising to you.

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Old 08-29-2015, 10:13 AM   #25
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I agree with the unknowns and I believe so on the party fishing boat. However, how long does it take to key a mic? The key word is "suspicious" and in the words of the Capt. himself, the vessel was not riding right and settling.

So I take it from that statement he understood something was wrong with the vessel and well as his statement of "He had never seen a boat go down so fast" that he was able to tell when a vessel is taking on water.

I also agree the press will mess things up, but thus far they all have said about the same thing.

Happy cruising to you.

H. Foster
Not sure how many vessels you have seen sink in front of you...but I would say I have about a dozen now in open water..and probably another 25 or so while tied up.

If a party boat captain is out of the wheelhouse and helping or chatting up pax at the stern...glancing up and seeing something off doesn't require a mad dash to the wheelhouse to make a call. I wouldn't depending on just what I saw either....it isn't so cut and dry as many might think.

The 2 boys fishing reported it happened very fast.

Again..you can think you might have done something different...and wanted to...but reality is most hesitate till the are sure...and in this case..a few seconds might have been as long as you had.

Second guess all you want...but that is all it is without more info.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:36 AM   #26
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not good :-(
(body found)


Divers Find Body in Sunken Fishing Trawler: NJ State Police | NBC New York
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:38 AM   #27
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Not sure how many vessels you have seen sink in front of you...but I would say I have about a dozen now in open water..and probably another 25 or so while tied up.

If a party boat captain is out of the wheelhouse and helping or chatting up pax at the stern...glancing up and seeing something off doesn't require a mad dash to the wheelhouse to make a call. I wouldn't depending on just what I saw either....it isn't so cut and dry as many might think.

The 2 boys fishing reported it happened very fast.

Again..you can think you might have done something different...and wanted to...but reality is most hesitate till the are sure...and in this case..a few seconds might have been as long as you had.

Second guess all you want...but that is all it is without more info.
To answer your question, I have seen a number of vessels go down, and in fact I was on one that went down when we were hit but another vessel. I also know when a vessel was riding low in the water when there was no reason for it to be. As I did say, there are unknowns but I can only go by what the Capt. himself said. he was keeping an eye on it.

Sure many things could have been happing that the Capt. had to do and as I said, I do not want to be to hard on the Capt. but I cannot help but wonder why some one would not simply try and call the vessel? It only takes a few moments.

I do not want you to take me wrong here Psneeld. I am not trying to place blame on the Capt. nor and I saying he is at fault. I am just saying it never hurts to take a closer look at things when they do not look right. That is just the way I was taught.

I have enjoyed our chat. It's great to get different view point other than your own.

Cheers and happy cruising to you.

H. Foster.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:39 AM   #28
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If worried about being sued for assisting...just carry a few "Open Salvage Agreements" aboard and strike out the compensation area and add all you wish is not to be sued.

It won't keep you from being sued , like real salvage companies often are, but it might help, especially being a good Samaritan and not a pro.
I'm not talking about assistance towing or anything other than driving over to the boat that has obvious problems and asking if there is anything you can do to help ... even just making a radio call in case the boat had lost electrical power or something.

The witness didn't say he saw the boat sink while he was motoring toward it, he said he kept on fishing and was surprised at how fast it sank.

The issue is someone sat and watched a boat with obvious difficulties until it sank before even asking if help was required. There is no liability in asking if everything is under control or if they would like you to help.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:48 AM   #29
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Thanks O.D.

I guess that clears up one thing (If I read the story right) The body was found in the wreckage! Well that would mean he was onboard! Damn. I feel sorry for the fella's family. My thought go out to them.

Thanks again O.D.

Happy cruising to you and yours my friend.

Cheers

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Old 08-29-2015, 10:54 AM   #30
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Without an actual timeline...it's hart to tell what coulda, woulda, should have been done.

Sure the checklist of things to do is great...but if number one is notice sinking boat, two is start assistance checklist but the boat sinks between number one and number two....kinda hard to fault anyone..especially when a second set of eyewitnesses saw it and proclaimed there was nothing they could do.

Hey...I hate the "suit crazed" world and still offer tows with my big old tubby trawler... I think assistance towing is stupid...but with the vast majority of boaters unable to tie a bowline...it probably is a good idea and saves fingers, eyes, lots of damage and maybe lives to boot from chuckleheads towing chuckleheads.

Just after being head of a safety organization that was responsible for conducting investigations..,and seeing all the jumped to conclusions and the pressure to get reports out...whether accurate or not...my tendency is to sit back and wait and see what the evidence shows...not news reports.

Yes Rick and everyone else, taking a moment to check things out should have risen to the top of that captain's priority list....I just wish I knew how much time he had to make that call.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:03 AM   #31
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Without an actual timeline...it's hart to tell what coulda, woulda, should have been done.

Sure the checklist of things to do is great...but if number one is notice sinking boat, two is start assistance checklist but the boat sinks between number one and number two....kinda hard to fault anyone..especially when a second set of eyewitnesses saw it and proclaimed there was nothing they could do.

Hey...I hate the "suit crazed" world and still offer tows with my big old tubby trawler... I think assistance towing is stupid...but with the vast majority of boaters unable to tie a bowline...it probably is a good idea and saves fingers, eyes, lots of damage and maybe lives to boot from chuckleheads towing chuckleheads.

Just after being head of a safety organization that was responsible for conducting investigations..,and seeing all the jumped to conclusions and the pressure to get reports out...whether accurate or not...my tendency is to sit back and wait and see what the evidence shows...not news reports.

Yes Rick and everyone else, taking a moment to check things out should have risen to the top of that captain's priority list....I just wish I knew how much time he had to make that call.
I agree. Many great statements in this post.

Happy cruising to you.

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Old 08-29-2015, 11:03 AM   #32
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I just wish I knew how much time he had to make that call.
In my view, he had time enough to interpret the condition of the vessel as having a problem, and time enough to decide to keep on fishing. In my opinion, a prudent mariner would have decided to take a look.

If the boat sank as soon as he recognized something was amiss then it is one thing but deciding that something was amiss then deciding to keep on fishing until it sank is quite another.

Whether we credit him with quick thinking or slow, the timeline has been established. He had time to decide what he would do and he decided that fishing was more important to him. That is undeniable.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:25 AM   #33
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In my view, he had time enough to interpret the condition of the vessel as having a problem, and time enough to decide to keep on fishing. In my opinion, a prudent mariner would have decided to take a look.

If the boat sank as soon as he recognized something was amiss then it is one thing but deciding that something was amiss then deciding to keep on fishing until it sank is quite another.

Whether we credit him with quick thinking or slow, the timeline has been established. He had time to decide what he would do and he decided that fishing was more important to him. That is undeniable.

As I have said many times on T.F. It's always great to get other's point of views on things.

In my view, I would say the Capt. would be credited with slow thinking and to be fair to him. I will say he did have the people aboard his vessel to worry about and the safety of his own vessel. The slow thinking in my view was due to the fact of not picking up the Mic. Other than that, I really do not believe he could not have done much more without endangering himself, his crew and his vessel. But yet, the one question I would like to know is how long did he watch the vessel before it went down? That is the key to me.

Happy cruising.

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Old 08-29-2015, 11:37 AM   #34
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... I really do not believe he could not have done much more without endangering himself, his crew and his vessel.
Having no onscene knowledge or information about conditions I can only ask why you believe that? How would he endanger his vessel or pax by moving a short distance from his location?

He never said he couldn't operate his vessel safely or get closer, he never said the seas or weather were too dangerous to steer a course toward the apparently distressed vessel. Apparently he didn't think it was too dangerous to go to the location where it sank after it sank to look for survivors that according to his own statement he had no reason to believe might be there because he saw no one onboard while he watched it sink.

I personally don't think his actions or inactions are defensible.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:57 AM   #35
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Having no onscene knowledge or information about conditions I can only ask why you believe that? How would he endanger his vessel or pax by moving a short distance from his location?

He never said he couldn't operate his vessel safely or get closer, he never said the seas or weather were too dangerous to steer a course toward the apparently distressed vessel. Apparently he didn't think it was too dangerous to go to the location where it sank after it sank to look for survivors that according to his own statement he had no reason to believe might be there because he saw no one onboard while he watched it sink.

I personally don't think his actions or inactions are defensible.
My reason are these Rick, and this is only my view.

If the Capt. could not made contact with the vessel, he would have two choices. 1: Call the USCG and sit and wait or 2: Try going aboard the vessel to see if there were any crew on board. The second one places him or his crew endanger as well as his vessel.

Moving closer would have been nice, but does not help anything. Call's do.


They all said the vessel went down fast. I myself would not want to take a chance on boarding a vessel that is settling in the water. That is a 50/50 call. You do not know when the vessel will slip under or roll or whatever, with you or one of your crew on the vessel.

That is why I would like to know how long he watch that vessel before it went down. Even so as I said. it's 50/50 boarding a vessel like that. I would have to know someone is onboard to take that chance or have good reason to believe someone was onboard.

I hope that answers your question.

Happy cruising to you.

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Old 08-29-2015, 12:31 PM   #36
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All throughout - I was astounded we were the only vessel that not only went to assist- but no-one else even bothered turning on or responding to radio after THREE red flares went off. There were about 8-10 boats within 1-3 miles from us. No way we were the only ones that saw the flares. Needless to say - it has shaken my longstanding belief that fellow boaters give a crap about 'the other guy' - at least when they're on the water.
Great response on your part. I hope that you are around if I am ever in trouble.

If I had been anchored in the area at that time in the evening, I may not have seen the flares. I would have been below in my plastic bottle with no real visibility outside. I also may have had the VHF turned off. I can easily see me missing the entire thing. Makes me wonder think that when in a more remote anchorage, I might keep the VHF on, particularly during a slow season like April.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:41 PM   #37
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Hey...I hate the "suit crazed" world and still offer tows with my big old tubby trawler... I think assistance towing is stupid...but with the vast majority of boaters unable to tie a bowline...it probably is a good idea and saves fingers, eyes, lots of damage and maybe lives to boot from chuckleheads towing chuckleheads.
I resemble that remark.

When I towed the drifting sailboat, the captain (ok the 20 something kid) tossed me his one genoa sheet as a tow line. It wasn't as long as I would like, nor was it in very good condition, but after watching him tie it to his anchor roller, I didn't want to try to send him another line. The handiest line I had was a 40 foot dock line anyway and it would have taken a while to dig out the spare anchor rode to pass him. Anyway, chucklehead that I was, I didn't pay enough attention when cleating the short tow line and it ended up slipping off my cleat.

Yeah, it was embarrassing.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:44 PM   #38
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Going to have to toss my 2 cents in the ring on this. I have been keeping an eye on this for several reasons, one of them being that it is not far outside my home inlet. Anyone who has the slightest hint that a boat/ship/watercraft is having difficulty (especially taking on water) has a moral obligation to act in some way shape or form. Not attempting to render aide boarders on a criminal act in my eyes. The Captain of the El Jeffe could have been laying on the floor after having a heart attack, still alive, praying that someone would come to his aide only to drown to death as someone sat on his ass fishing. This may be speculation on my point but we will never know because someone did not have the human decency to act. Sorry if this seems a bit harsh but to me someone that does not "get involved" in a situation like this is either a coward or a sorry excuse for a human being. There was no danger to a vessel going in to take a closer look, infact the condition in this area have been extremely calm for the past week. If you were in the El Jeffe's situation what do you think another boat's captain should have done, what does your wife think he should have done, what do your kids think he should have done. I will get off my soapbox now.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:47 PM   #39
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Going to have to toss my 2 cents in the ring on this.
Hear hear!

And worth a lot more than 2 cents. Thank you for posting that.
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Old 08-29-2015, 01:15 PM   #40
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Going to have to toss my 2 cents in the ring on this. I have been keeping an eye on this for several reasons, one of them being that it is not far outside my home inlet. Anyone who has the slightest hint that a boat/ship/watercraft is having difficulty (especially taking on water) has a moral obligation to act in some way shape or form. Not attempting to render aide boarders on a criminal act in my eyes.
I agree with you but.....

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They all said the vessel went down fast. I myself would not want to take a chance on boarding a vessel that is settling in the water. That is a 50/50 call. You do not know when the vessel will slip under or roll or whatever, with you or one of your crew on the vessel.
H. Foster makes an excellent point. We all have to weigh risks to ourselves while making these decisions. Where we each come down on that will depend on a number of things. My wife tends to be much more risk averse than I am in situations. I probably don't tend to give risks to myself enough thought. For example, I would probably have attempted to board that vessel to check for occupants. If I found it empty, or felt it was empty, I would get off as fast as I could.

But then my grandfather jumped into the surf at age 80 to save a drowning women and my father entered a burning house at aged 70 to get a family out. In the case of the house, he didn't know it was occupied but he felt that there was a high enough likelyhood that he couldn't stand by.

We each have our own decisions to make and I won't criticize those that make rational decisions to not put themselves at risk. We also all have different skills, experience, and knowledge that comes into play. Now, those that don't render aid because they don't want to be inconvenienced is another matter.
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