2 Stern Lights....?

[LN-RTP]

My boat came from the factory with the “usual above the swim platform” stern light and the usual 2 red/green bow lights and a steaming light above the arch.
Then the previous owner switched to LEDs and installed a 360 degree combined steaming and stern light above the arch. (Combined with anchor light.)
Then he pulled the bulb on the “above swim platform”stern light.
All good, everything in compliance.

Now, what if I stick a bright LED bulb in the old stern light fixture and run with 2 stern lights.?
Is that still legal? (You can have as many anchor lights as you want, how about stern lights?)

Been reading up on the requirements, but they only show minimum required lights, not maximum..

I sure as heck don’t want to run an illegal or confusing boat at night, but at the same time I hate to have a piece of non-working gear. (Old stern light)

I have called the USCG in the past with other questions and keep being passed over from one person to the next, to the next and in the end, never get an answer.

 

[psneeld]

the only conflict is really someone would mistake it for 2 vessels or a tow...and take greater care than necessary...which is a thin arguement.

My suggestion is dont, most transom lights tend to dissapear at some speed between hull and planing so many are illegal anyhow.

keep the upper and just use the transom one as aux lighting.

 

[Cigatoo]

the only conflict is really someone would mistake it for 2 vessels or a tow...and take greater care than necessary...which is a thin arguement.

My suggestion is dont, most transom lights tend to dissapear at some speed between hull and planing so many are illegal anyhow.

keep the upper and just use the transom one as aux lighting.

What Sneed said. Keep it legal

 

[LN-RTP]

What Sneed said. Keep it legal

Yup, of course I want to keep it legal. The question however if it IS legal to display 2 stern lights....?
(So far I have not seen any language either way, just the minimum required.)

 

[Moonfish]

I agree with psneeld. Any combination of lights beyond the minimum required begins to convey at night you are something more than just a single recreational vessel underway. No need to introduce any confusion into that situation!

 

[tozz]

Yup, of course I want to keep it legal. The question however if it IS legal to display 2 stern lights....?

(So far I have not seen any language either way, just the minimum required.)

Rule 23 states the regulation.

 

[Comodave]

As shown above “a sternlight”. A means one, not two. If you were to be involved in a collision I suspect that it would be a problem.

 

[markpierce]

As rule 23 says, a second masthead light is an option for small boats if appropriately placed, but a stern light is singular.

 

[koliver]

Your "Sternlight" is the one on the transom, as it is in compliance with Rule 21 c:
"Sternlight means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel."
If you are less than 12m, you are also permitted, per Rule 23 d:
"(i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 metres in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights."
though I suspect you are over 12m, or your vessel would have been so equipped.

Your Previous Owner may have used Weaver Davits, so had obscured the sternlight while the dinghy was tilted up in front of it (a frequent source of failures in our marina, where safety checks are a condition of moorage and compliance with the Colregs is required). His solution, though not ideal, worked.

If you relocate the sternlight to the aft brow of the upper deck and remove the upper all round white, you can be in perfect compliance once again.

If you are, in fact, less than 12m, just remove the stern fixture.

You haven't mentioned the location of the original steaming light. There is no restriction on having a second steaming light, though the higher one must be abaft the lower:
Rule 23(a)
"A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) a masthead light forward,

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one; except that a vessel of less than 50 metres in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such light but may do so,"

 

[LN-RTP]

Thanks Gentlemen, looks like all of you confirmed what I suspected: No option for 2 “stern lights”, or as pointed out above, really a stern light and an all round white light.
I will probably install a switch in the wiring so as to leave the stern light off at all times, but should I lose my 360 white light I can re-activate the stern light and perhaps use the search light as a temporary steaming light.

My boat is an Albin 28, less than 12 meters.

 

[LN-RTP]

Contacted the USCG about this issue, with pictures of my boat with both the Stern and the All around white masthead light illuminated, and with just the 360 white light on.
This was the answer I got:

You must cover 360 degrees with one all around light or using two lights as shown in the picture. Additional white stern light is optional and is not Illegal.

Sometimes I do charters at night on the New River in Fort Lauderdale with rain showers and bad visibility.
Following boats can not see my stern or the name of the boat. (For radio calls)
Heavy traffic and strong currents, I want to be illuminated, now the local CG said it is okay.
Perfect.

BTW, the boat is less than 12 meters, no, there was never any davits on the stern blocking the original light.

Picture of boat:
OdinCharters| WireFrame Home
Or Facebook “Odin Charters” with links to the USCG conversation (the local CG Office is active on Social Media now. Alvaro Fernando is the Officer posting on behalf of the Miami Coast Guard Office addressing “Uninspected Passenger Vessel & Bareboat Charter Community” = 33 CFR § 83.22 - Visibility of lights (Rule 22) )

 

[rslifkin]

As far as I understand the rules, under 12 meters you can have either a 360* white masthead or a a 225* masthead + 135* sternlight, but not both. Above 12 meters you must have the 225 + 135 setup.

 

[LN-RTP]

As far as I understand the rules, under 12 meters you can have either a 360* white masthead or a a 225* masthead + 135* sternlight, but not both. Above 12 meters you must have the 225 + 135 setup.

Coast Guard said I can have both: Official blessing and being a workboat I always want to be in compliance with the Rules.

 

[boatruptcy]

I have the same boat and am running the same setup. My anchor light is a 360 all around on my hardtop and my running lights are transom light, the aforementioned 360 light and of course the red and green side markers.

 

[LN-RTP]

I have the same boat and am running the same setup. My anchor light is a 360 all around on my hardtop and my running lights are transom light, the aforementioned 360 light and of course the red and green side markers.

So you use the 360 all around masthead AND the transom light at the same time?
That was my question initially, glad the USCG clarified it.

 

[boatruptcy]

Yes, when underway. My masthead light is forward on my hardtop not on the rocket launcher aft so not as high as yours probably.

 

[LN-RTP]

Yes, when underway. My masthead light is forward on my hardtop not on the rocket launcher aft so not as high as yours probably.

Glad I am not the only one..

 

[boatruptcy]

I zoomed in on a pic I had, you can see mine on the backside of the spotlight, forward on the top.

 

[psneeld]

I don't believe the USCG meant "stern lights" I believe they were discussing 2 masthead lights.

Your call but I don't think the discussion was clear.

 

[LN-RTP]

I don't believe the USCG meant "stern lights" I believe they were discussing 2 masthead lights.

Your call but I don't think the discussion was clear.

Did you take a look at the FB conversation I had with the CG, with pictures.?

And did you see this CG comment?

Additional white stern light is optional and is not Illegal.

They said Stern Light Loud and Clear..

 

[Ski in NC]

I run the same setup on my 38. All around white on radar mast, and a transom light. My transom light is pretty low when running. I want to be SEEN when some go-fast is coming up behind me. In high traffic areas I sometimes also put the deck lights on which shine aft from radar mast to the cockpit and a little behind.

At 38' I guess I am right around the 12m line.

 

[psneeld]

Did you take a look at the FB conversation I had with the CG, with pictures.?

And did you see this CG comment?

They said Stern Light Loud and Clear..

With 23 years in the USCG, the answer you got is not one I would bet on.

I don't believe there is one picture in the nav rules that shows 2 white lights showing aft except for tugs with tows, a RAM , a pilot vessel, trawler, or long aground.

 

[boatruptcy]

Ignore this guy OP, he thrives on online bickering and needs major attention.

 

[psneeld]

Ignore this guy OP, he thrives on online bickering and needs major attention.

If you can show me an example in the Navrules that I didn't point out, then I will consider not "bickering" anymore.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. b. Re: Post #22. I REALLY hope you are NOT referring to our Mr. ps. He knows his stuff and he is the LAST person I would question on USCG regulations. Yes, he occasionally might make a mistake but he has always been quick to admit such PLUS he has a really funny Donald Duck story.

 

[boatruptcy]

I am referring to him, having knowledge of some things doesn't give you a pass to be a jerk. Every interaction I've seen with this guy is unbearable. Besides, he wants to tell the OP that the coast guard is wrong? Get over yourself is what I say. The omission of something doesn't mean it's illegal or not up to regs. A shame that all that knowledge is wrapped up in such an unhappy person. I'd rather stay ignorant than deal with a guy like that.

 

[psneeld]

Best to slam me than answer my question on the actual rules.....

 

[boatruptcy]

Well I'll go by what the coast guard says, let them answer your question.

 

[LN-RTP]

. With 23 years in the USCG, the answer you got is not one I would bet on.

Jeez, okay: The CG is wrong...?
Who do I turn to, the Supreme Court? The Maker himself.?
I will print the answer to my question and carry aboard just in case of a conflict.
In the meantime, I prefer safety first, in bad viz, show more lights, more stern lights: What can it be
mistaken for?
Not running lights as there is no red and green in the picture, not anchor lights as the vessel is moving. Voila..A well lit up stern with name and hailing port clearly visible and a 360 white above it: Stern Lights, no doubt..
All good, at least until proven wrong, or proven dangerous. So far, Neither.

 

[CaptTom]

My first thought is that some PR officer isn't an attorney, and doesn't speak for the entire Coast Guard.

You are allowed additional lights, as long as they can't be confused with the required lights. In this case, it can certainly be argued that they can.

If something bad happens, I suspect that your odd arrangement will be called into question. It doesn't matter if some PR guy said you can do it. It doesn't matter if other people do it. I've seen the red and green sidelights reversed. That doesn't make it right.

Do what you want. But what you're doing is questionable, if not flat-out wrong. And pointless. There's no possible advantage to having the lower-level light.