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Old 01-27-2016, 06:51 AM   #81
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I would like to think that my 4 bilge pumps could keep up with a raw water hose failure, just curious what a ship of that class would be required to have?
Ted
If a raw water hose completely failed down stream of the raw water pump there is no way my 3 bilge pumps could handle that much water. Maybe with the engine at idle but even then I doubt it.

I have a high water alarm that I installed about 4" above my center bilge pump connected to a siren. If it sounds I'm preparing to run the boat aground or deploy the dinghy as the pumps have already failed to control the water coming in.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:03 AM   #82
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So on a vessel of that size, what would the dewatering capacity (bilge pumps) be? I would like to think that my 4 bilge pumps could keep up with a raw water hose failure, just curious what a ship of that class would be required to have?

Ted
Ted...I agree.


Not assuming you aren't experienced to know this, and actually as a diver you might have seen first hand some of this....but I am spelling it out for the newbies/curious.

In this case the boat just didn't take on water it sank.

We usually never hear of all the times boats have major issues begin but warning systems, good safety equipment and well prepared crews take care od business before it gets out of hand. Thus no news. Like in many areas of life.

In many accident reports I have reviewed, it usually was something dumb and even a second almost ridiculous mistake that made it turn from issue to accident.

Many progressive flooding accidents result from a small problem that gets away from the crew because a warning device was inoperable but they still sailed (known or not checked)...then as the flooding or fire progressed, it became near impossible to stop the initial issue and now other issues ass and this is where the second system failure nails the coffin.

In this case we suspect flooding (as reported by the crew). Even if that was unstoppable, as Spy pointed out, there originally were seemingly, plenty of watertight bulkheads.

So if it were my investigation...one track would be to determine where the water started. The other, how and why it got out of hand. As more info like Capt Bill brought up emerges, even more avenues to investigate are added.

Just because it was built and equipped not to sink, that could be a long stretch to the actual events leading to this sinking.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:19 AM   #83
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How much effort will be spent investigating a private recreational vessel sinking and is there a limit to how much public money will be spent.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:20 AM   #84
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So on a vessel of that size, what would the dewatering capacity (bilge pumps) be? I would like to think that my 4 bilge pumps could keep up with a raw water hose failure, just curious what a ship of that class would be required to have?

Ted
On the last two classes vessels I worked on we had a large capacity pump connected to a manifold system where you could manually pick which compartment to dewater by throwing valves.

And as I recall on at least one of them we had large Rule pumps in those spaces as well.

Of course we had high water alarm sensors in each compartment.

But even with all that a moderately large hole could overwhelm your dewatering capacity.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:22 AM   #85
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So on a vessel of that size, what would the dewatering capacity (bilge pumps) be? I would like to think that my 4 bilge pumps could keep up with a raw water hose failure, just curious what a ship of that class would be required to have?

Ted
If they say the draft was 11' so you know that all the bilge pumps now have an 11' head (at least) which diminishes their capacity by 60-70%.

If they were smart, the prop shafts would have been equipped with high capacity pumps like a fast flow pump, so that if the water gets to the shaft level, they hit the pumps, as long as the shafts are spinning.

Fast Flow Pumps - Bilge Pump

But perhaps the captain stops to see what happened, and to the bottom the boat went..
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:24 AM   #86
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How much effort will be spent investigating a private recreational vessel sinking and is there a limit to how much public money will be spent.
I was talking to the owner of a salvage company yesterday that does that kind of work, he said in most cases if the depth of the water the vessel sank in is over about 600' the insurance companies will not bother to try and inspect the vessel based on the costs involved to get to it and inspect it properly.

No public money will be spent either.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:27 AM   #87
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If they say the draft was 11' so you know that all the bilge pumps now have an 11' head (at least) which diminishes their capacity by 60-70%.
That should be addressed when you spec the pump.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:32 AM   #88
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How much effort will be spent investigating a private recreational vessel sinking and is there a limit to how much public money will be spent.
With no death and no foul play suspected...not sure if there even will be an investigation.

I used to be amazed at how may SAR cases I was involved in that stank up the room never were investigated...everything from fraud man overboard/missing person (possible murder).

The last big recreational vessel sinking I was involved with did have a file made up by the Marine Safety Office. It may have been concerned about the side show stuff more than anything like fuel/oil spill, etc....

But the investigator with the file stayed on it as the insurance company was spending the big bucks to have a barge and crane out 60 miles off Jersey for months. He would request helo flights out occasionally to observe. Usually as in USCG fashion, the flights were not dedicated but rolled into another or several mission profiles so not a lot of money was really being spent just on that accident.

Once the salvage was abandoned, I never heard another thing about it as even the media though it was old news.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:40 AM   #89
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Just wondering where the line is drawn as to when the Feds get involved in a boating accident/incident. On the flying side, the NTSB investigates all accidents, private or commercial.
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:19 AM   #90
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The Investigative Process


The National Transportation Safety Board was established in 1967 to conduct independent investigations of all civil aviation accidents in the United States and major accidents in the other modes of transportation. It is not part of the Department of Transportation, nor organizationally affiliated with any of DOT's modal agencies, including the Federal Aviation Administration. The Safety Board has no regulatory or enforcement powers.


Of course like many times in Govt......if the accident is newsworthy and it hits home one way or another with important enough people.....any Govt agency can be drug into it.


Not sure about vessels that are foreign flagged or have other than plain vanilla status with the US...that could also force Feds in to side by side with the state on simple boating accidents.
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:15 AM   #91
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If a raw water hose completely failed down stream of the raw water pump there is no way my 3 bilge pumps could handle that much water. Maybe with the engine at idle but even then I doubt it.
My little John Deere has a raw water flow rate of 35 GPM at WOT. After derating the bilge pumps for head pressure, I theoretically am still over 125 GPM (know it will be significantly less than that). Nice to have a small engine with 1.25" raw water hose. Happiness is when your bilge pump hoses are bigger in diameter than the engines raw water hose.

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Old 01-27-2016, 10:24 AM   #92
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Even then...if you have a problem with raw engine water exiting the vessel...it would have to be after the injection point by quite a bit if you have an exhaust alarm.


Then there are high water alarms or just the unusual motion of the boat is noticeable....enging raw water related sinkings are rare...because they are self correcting for the most part...the engine gets wet enough and shuts down or signals in other ways...the operator pulls the engine to idle to see what is up (eventually) and the problem is all but corrected.


I have hovered over a couple boats knowing by their description this or taking water over the bow into bad hatch covers or anchor lockers that they weren't going to sink (no I didn't wait till they were treading water...comes from knowing boats and experience) and saved the boat and at least damage or injury from trying to deliver a pump or complete personnel evacuation.


My biggest fear would be a failure of the exhaust flange where water could slosh back in and now where I have to work to plug the hole is either on the swim platform and it is rough or the inside full of exhaust.


Not sure if the boat in the OP is water exhaust or dry stacked at that size.
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:50 AM   #93
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One of the keys for the NTSB, CG and others is the term "major accident." The sinking of one boat with no loss of life isn't one.

As to the insurer, this isn't a huge claim but isn't insignificant either. There will be plenty of investigation, just not of the sunken vessel. They will talk to crew and trace the most recent activities of the boat. The obvious thing they would look for would be any action on the part of others such as the work of a recent shipyard visited that they might attribute the accident to. Not being able to examine the boat would make that more difficult however. They'd also look for any known problems neglected by the owner. Still the basic questions such as why weren't the alarms sounding and why weren't the pumps pumping (if they weren't)? They will look for something to jump out at them.

If it doesn't, then they'll proceed to settlement negotiations. Could all be resolved in 6 weeks or could take years.
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:57 AM   #94
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Having spent time Involved with vessels in this size range, a failed hose should not cause flooding unless the sea cock is inoperable or no attention is being paid to ER happenings. A more catastrophic event is suggested. The crew has already said a cogent thought or two I betcha.
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:40 AM   #95
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If their sea water flow alarms were installed where the water enters the exhaust (most including Aqualarm are rated for hot water) then a blown seawater hose shows up as a no-flow alarm. I have always found this reassuring on my installations.
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:26 PM   #96
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Read somewhere?? they may have dropped a stabilizer fin. That could leave a big hole.
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:39 PM   #97
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Greetings,
Having transited Port Everglades countless times I know it is well marked, well lit, deep and wide. One would have to be way off the channel to ding anything even on a 105' vessel.
I remember visiting the USS Abe Lincoln at Port Everglades. One of my many thoughts was how in the heck did they get that big, huge, ship in this little space?!!! Figured the captain had to replace his under pants both arriving and leaving port.

Later,
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:56 PM   #98
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I remember visiting the USS Abe Lincoln at Port Everglades. One of my many thoughts was how in the heck did they get that big, huge, ship in this little space?!!! Figured the captain had to replace his under pants both arriving and leaving port.

Later,
Dan
tugs...the Navy loves them...even now the USCG employs outfits like Sea Tow to push/pull them in tight spaces after decades of denting ships because of egos.

It is amazing what you can do with multiple, moveable thrusters.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:12 PM   #99
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You guys talking about raw water flow seem to ignore the other end of the system: the intake through hull and attached hose. The further below the waterline a hole is, the more it admits into the boat.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...y8uwdv9kNytPZQ
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:57 PM   #100
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You guys talking about raw water flow seem to ignore the other end of the system: the intake through hull and attached hose. The further below the waterline a hole is, the more it admits into the boat.
The deeper the hole in the hull, the higher pressure it has trying to get in.

It would take quite a while for engine cooling water to fill an engine room and then the boat.

but, a 4" hole 10' below the waterline, that's over 1000 gallons a minute, every minute. Some say it slows down, but as the boat fills with water, it gets deeper, so the rate of flooding is just about constant. Unless you have shaft driven bilge pumps, you're gone before you can do much about it.

Even if they had a half dozen high output Rule pumps, it's a losing battle. Once the electrical system gets wet, they go down too.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Hole...odingtable.pdf
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