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Old 11-27-2016, 05:09 PM   #21
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Seems like you may have found a pretty hungry (or inexperianced) delivery skipper. What the heck's a 60-ton license, anyway? Have you vetted him properly? The going rate for that delivery 10 years ago was $400/day for the skipper, $250/day for a deckhand, plus expenses. I expect the going rate is higher today. And no professional delivery skipper I know provides a reduced charge for the lay-days. The owner should expect to pay full pop whether the boat's at sea or not. Time is money to these guys, and you shouldn't expect them to discount there time if they are not underway.

Unless there's a REAL compelling reason to have the boat in SF immediately, my final piece of advice is to leave the boat in BC or Seattle until April, paying attention to WA state registration requirements to do so. Then, engage an experienced delivery skipper and deckhand, hop aboard as the third hand, and enjoy the trip south in the spring. Lots to learn, lots to see, fun to be had. And you don't have to practice bleeding to do so.

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60 Ton is an entry level Canadian term. Master Limited 60 ton - Transport Canada Certification

60 Ton is somewhat akin to a six pack in the US but requires much less experience, only 60 days.

You're right on a probable lack of experience.

60 days is the Washington limit and sales tax would also come into question unless paid elsewhere. There are a lot of complicating factors. I would hope you're using an agent to advise you on all of them.

Did you look into shipping the boat? Perhaps from Seattle?
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:48 PM   #22
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Have you looked into the cost and feasibility of trucking from Olympia WA?
I have not. I believe the fly bridge would need to be removed, which I wouldn't be thrilled about.
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:00 PM   #23
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I have not. I believe the fly bridge would need to be removed, which I wouldn't be thrilled about.
Well you will never know unless you ask. I would call Dudley Boat Transport and/or Associated Boat Transport, both out of WA and find out if in fact the bridge needs to be removed. They will know, and if doable give you a firm price. Both have stellar reputations.
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:09 PM   #24
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Michael B,

I am interested in learning about the insurance piece for this trip, please, if you are willing to share.

If it stays up here until spring, I can probably give you 4-5 days, maybe 7, for free. Please PM for my phone number if you want to discuss.

Jeff
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:19 PM   #25
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Well you will never know unless you ask. I would call Dudley Boat Transport and/or Associated Boat Transport, both out of WA and find out if in fact the bridge needs to be removed. They will know, and if doable give you a firm price. Both have stellar reputations.
Thanks, I'll definitely give them a call tomorrow. Appreciate it!
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:25 PM   #26
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MichalB1969 you’ve gotten some good advice, generally not to go. At least not until the boat and crew are fully ready and the weather has moderated in spring. I’ve worked the PNW inland and near coastal waters for decades and made the near coastal run many times. Personally unless I’m in a well found hell for stout boat that I am intimately familiar with I want to be off the ocean by Oct 10. I’m going to try to put the fear of Neptune in you!

My first comment is on a Capt with a 60 ton license. Generally US licenses less than 100 tons are issued to those with very limited experience. This is not to say big tonnage on the ticket equals experience or guarantees seamanship. But, under 100 tons? I’ve not met very many with less than 100 ton tickets that have the experience you are going to need. I see that BnB has learned that if this is a Canadian Capt they hold an entry level license.

Requesting 2 days familiarization is a sign the Capt either is a risk taker or does not understand the risks involved.

I am not familiar with the Beneteau Swift Trawlwer 44 so I had to find one on Yachtworld to look at. Too much glass. None of it the kind that can take boarding seas. If you’re trying to scoot across a bar to get out of a storm breaking seas may blow out a window.

Recreational boats in general do not have the stuff it takes to survive extreme conditions when things go wrong. Generally they don’t have water tight compartments and lack adequate de-watering equipment. Couple that with flimsy windows and you’re begging for trouble.

Regarding weather windows. Well, anyone who has tried to play that game in winter on the west coast has gotten spanked. From BC to SF it’s not a matter if you will get spanked, it’s how often and how bad. Weather forecasts are just that. Forecasts, best guesses if you will. Sometimes they are plain wrong. Yes, they’ve gotten much better in recent years but when they are wrong and you are many hours from safe harbor that is small comfort.

A couple of sea stories for your entertainment. We departed Seattle late October bound for Astoria Oregon. We knew the weather was not good so intended to lay over in Neah Bay waiting for a weather window. We weren’t the only ones waiting. Ocean going tugs, off shore commercial trawlers, smaller work boats and a number of recreational boats. Finally things started looking up after 5 days. The big tugs pulled out, the commercial trawlers pulled out and everyone was getting ready to go. The storm we’d been waiting on was easing up, not gone yet but easing up. A new storm was headed in but according to forecasts if we departed at midnight we’d be crossing the Columbia River bar in daylight at slack tide in the relative calm between storms. When I say relative calm I mean something like 8’ - 10’ seas. Well the forecast was wrong. The first storm did not die off as much as predicted and the next came in earlier and stronger. We didn’t make Astoria. We were in 24’ confused seas approaching Grays Harbor. Yes, actual sea height as verfied by the wave data buoy. I decided to try to make Grays Harbor. We did but it was terrifying. When we did finally head to Astoria we again played the weather window game. We crossed the bar just before the Cape Disappointment CG closed the bar for two weeks.

Mind you that was in a 65’ steel work boat with proper doors, hatches and windows.

This next one is not a wither story but relates to sliding glass doors on the aft end of the house. On another coastal transit we departed Seattle bound for Eureka Ca in June. At first it really wasn’t a bad trip, a bit of lump and bump, some nice weather. Just a summer run down the coast for a workboat. As we worked south the weather kicked up. Stronger than predicted so I decided to duck into Coos Bay Oregon for a break and to top up the tanks. She rides better with a belly full of fuel. We got stuck there for 3 days waiting out a blow. Among the other transient boats was a pleasure boat about the size of yours with the same kind of doors on the aft end of the house. Unfortunately he’d taken boarding seas crossing the bar and the sliding doors had been blown out. Had he blown the doors out at sea I doubt he would have survived. Continued boarding seas would have flooded the boat and without watertight compartments and adequate de-watering gear would have killed the engines in short order. The delivery Capt was a cocky sort, a legend in his own mind. Long on ego and short on experience.

When choosing a delivery Capt. I’d want to see a proven track record of near coastal transits. I’d want the Capt to ask questions like “When was the last time the tanks were polished?” “When and where did you last fuel up?” “How is your stock of fuel filters? Spares?” “Do you have the tools needed to handle problems?” “Has your life raft (do you even have one) been inspected?” If a delivery Capt told me he'd be ready for a winter coastal transit after 2 days I'd say "Thank you for your time. Your services won't be needed."

Heed the advice of others and don’t go or send the boat. It’s not worth the risk. You’re just asking for trouble.

I'm not at all familiar with the tax consequences of leaving the boat in Wa over winter. Maybe you could beat the tax man by having the boat shuttled between Sydney BC and Friday Harbor Wa several times over the winter?
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:48 PM   #27
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Have you looked into the cost and feasibility of trucking from Olympia WA?

This would be my thought as well.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:27 PM   #28
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Have you looked at the weather for December?

This year, so far, we have had the worst October on record. November has been no better, though we are not at the end yet, so this may be less bad than other Novembers. With that as precedent, how can you consider going anywhere in December?

Then there is the boat. Beneteaus are pretty boats, not ugly like Nordhavns. There is a reason for that difference. With my views on the weather, stated above, I wouldn't be taking a Nordy down the Oregon coast this December, and certainly not a Beneteau. I consider my own boat to be quite a bit more of a sea boat than a Beneteau and would never consider trying to move it to SF in the winter.

Then the crew.......

Close on your purchase in the spring.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:06 PM   #29
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60 Ton is an entry level Canadian term. Master Limited 60 ton - Transport Canada Certification

60 Ton is somewhat akin to a six pack in the US but requires much less experience, only 60 days.

You're right on a probable lack of experience.

60 days is the Washington limit and sales tax would also come into question unless paid elsewhere. There are a lot of complicating factors. I would hope you're using an agent to advise you on all of them.

Did you look into shipping the boat? Perhaps from Seattle?

Regarding time limits in WA, I thought it was a total of 6 months in any one year but in two 3 month blocks. Time between them can be as short as one day. But note that a 3 month block can be extended if the boat is having repairs being done. You just go down to the local licensing office and fill in the form, it is very straightforward.

Mike, I assume the 'not feasible to spend a season in BC' relates to work requirements for either you or your wife, plus school for your daughter. Fair enough. But here's another alternative. Take a bit of time over the Xmas period, and spend it with your family on the boat. If you can get at least two weeks take the boat through the Gulf Islands, and the San Juans, down to Port Townsend. If you don't have that much time, mooch about in the Vancouver area. Then get your delivery skipper to take the Bendy (ok, a nickname for their sail boats, the power ones might have stiffer layup) down to Port Townsend.

Either way, once in Port Townsend, haul out. There are bound to be some things that need to be done that you or the delivery captain will have identified. And being on the hard there is cheaper than being in a slip. If you need to wait until April/May then fine, your time on the hard for repairs is easily added to the 2 or 3 month limit that otherwise applies to the WA cruising permit.

Whatever you do, take heed of Pau Hana re: insurance considerations and many others regarding risks involved in attempting the trip south in an unknown boat at that time of year.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:19 PM   #30
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Regarding time limits in WA, I thought it was a total of 6 months in any one year but in two 3 month blocks. Time between them can be as short as one day. But note that a 3 month block can be extended if the boat is having repairs being done. You just go down to the local licensing office and fill in the form, it is very straightforward.

Mike, I assume the 'not feasible to spend a season in BC' relates to work requirements for either you or your wife, plus school for your daughter. Fair enough. But here's another alternative. Take a bit of time over the Xmas period, and spend it with your family on the boat. If you can get at least two weeks take the boat through the Gulf Islands, and the San Juans, down to Port Townsend. If you don't have that much time, mooch about in the Vancouver area. Then get your delivery skipper to take the Bendy (ok, a nickname for their sail boats, the power ones might have stiffer layup) down to Port Townsend.

Either way, once in Port Townsend, haul out. There are bound to be some things that need to be done that you or the delivery captain will have identified. And being on the hard there is cheaper than being in a slip. If you need to wait until April/May then fine, your time on the hard for repairs is easily added to the 2 or 3 month limit that otherwise applies to the WA cruising permit.

Whatever you do, take heed of Pau Hana re: insurance considerations and many others regarding risks involved in attempting the trip south in an unknown boat at that time of year.
If your tax info is correct, that is encouraging. And yes, the not feasible part is work-related. We are actually going to Playa Del Carmen for the holidays, we booked it before we had any idea we'd be closing on a boat!

I'm going to call the trucking companies to see if that's an option, speak to much more experienced delivery captains who have made the trip many times, and also consider keeping it up north until April/May...and and see where it leads me.

Thanks for everyone's input. It's super helpful. This is a great forum!

Mike
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:28 PM   #31
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Regarding time limits in WA, I thought it was a total of 6 months in any one year but in two 3 month blocks. Time between them can be as short as one day. But note that a 3 month block can be extended if the boat is having repairs being done. You just go down to the local licensing office and fill in the form, it is very straightforward.

.
At 60 days you must obtain a non-resident vessel permit. Now, it gets more complicated because exemptions in registration are based on a boat registered in another state. Only boats legally registered elsewhere can get the non-resident permit. Sales tax will exempt or credit if you've paid elsewhere, but you can't get by with having paid none anywhere.

When we purchased in Washington, we registered at the time of purchase in Florida and paid Florida sales tax. Then we made sure we didn't consecutively stay in Washington over 60 days, by trips to Oregon, BC, and Alaska.

Now, add to all that the fact he's importing the boat. If he's going to keep it in California, he may be best off paying California sales tax immediately and registering there. Or, he could pay sales tax elsewhere and delay California entry.

Just get expert advice. I'd suggest a documentation company, even if not documenting.

Now, one other factor in his rush to move the boat in December. If it's in California on December 31, it will be subject to Property Tax for the year. Later entry would delay that a year.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:50 PM   #32
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Yes to expert, current, WA tax advice. I'm 3 years out of date. My boat was foreign registered straight after purchase in WA, a different scenario again to what you describe. I was exempt in WA for the purchase. Had I not imported the boat into Australia I could have deferred paying any tax indefinitely as the boat's entry to Australia was the tax trigger, and not date of registration.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:01 PM   #33
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I got curious, here's another angle from the WA Dept Revenue relating to exemptions Vessel Tax Guide

Nonresident individuals bringing a vessel into Washington
A nonresident individual who acquired a vessel of 30 feet or longer outside Washington may also purchase a one-year use permit. The nonresident individual must, however, purchase a permit from a licensed vessel dealer within 14 days of first entering Washington with the vessel.

That website also has the Non-resident Vessel Repair Affidavit form I mentioned in a previous post. See link on contents page under 'Forms'. AFAIK you can get multiple extensions provided you meet the criteria. It 'stops the clock' on the shorter permits, effectively extending their duration.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:16 PM   #34
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I got curious, here's another angle from the WA Dept Revenue relating to exemptions Vessel Tax Guide

Nonresident individuals bringing a vessel into Washington
A nonresident individual who acquired a vessel of 30 feet or longer outside Washington may also purchase a one-year use permit. The nonresident individual must, however, purchase a permit from a licensed vessel dealer within 14 days of first entering Washington with the vessel.
That paragraph only applies to sales/use tax, but not to registration. The cost of that permit is $500 or $800 depending on size.

It's never as simple as it looks because we're dealing with registration, sales and use tax, import into the US, California residency, and more.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:32 PM   #35
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That paragraph only applies to sales/use tax, but not to registration. The cost of that permit is $500 or $800 depending on size.

It's never as simple as it looks because we're dealing with registration, sales and use tax, import into the US, California residency, and more.
I should probably engage with one of those experts that deal with marine tax issues. Good thing our tax laws are so simple...
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:46 PM   #36
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I should probably engage with one of those experts that deal with marine tax issues. Good thing our tax laws are so simple...
That's what happens when you have 50 states all with different laws.
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:45 PM   #37
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Wink

I don't mean to dissuade you, but here's a video I took 3 years ago while taking a 60' x 15' beam boat from Seattle to Stockton, CA. This was in June. We had planned for a 6 day trip but it took us 9 due to weather delays.

I'd give some serious thought to going along with the recommendations you're getting to not do the trip in December. Life's too short to spend it with King Neptune in Davy Jones' Locker.

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Old 11-28-2016, 01:02 AM   #38
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I should probably engage with one of those experts that deal with marine tax issues. Good thing our tax laws are so simple...
Pacific Maritime Title is who you want to call on all things title related, including taxes, permits, etc. Kim George is my go-to gal.

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Old 11-28-2016, 01:22 AM   #39
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+1 for Pacific Maritime Title. Great little group of people.
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Old 11-28-2016, 03:06 AM   #40
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MichaelB1969, have you made a decision yet? You haven't indicated your personal level of experience, but there are alot of very experienced people stating very strong reasons not to undertake the trip in December.

But just to give you my input:
I made the trip from Seattle to Los Angeles, as captain (500 ton license) of a 65ft steel motorboat that had recently returned from a trip to Australia. I made the trip in early May but got hit off the coast of Northern Oregon with un-forecast weather. 3 straight days running before 25-30 ft seas, hand steering with a crew of 3. We stayed in constant contact with USCG during the trip, being handed off between stations down the coast, but could not even attempt to cross any bars..... I would never attempt during December.

So it would seem you have at least three options: (1) pay your captain his $21,000 to baby your boat for 3 months trying to make it down the coast; (2) leave it at a nice snug marina in WA until June, occasionally enjoying it with the family; or (3) pay a trucking company to ship it.

Let us know what you decide and best of luck and enjoyment to you.
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