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Old 04-10-2014, 01:22 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by hollywood8118 View Post

Ok,
So if they pipe it down to LA then is flows to the sea through LA Harbor vs the Golden Gate....
Yes So Cal needs to do more desalination, solar powered would be great.

The thing is most water isn't being consumed to the point it goes away... there are more consumers in Cal and that is the issue.
The BIG water issue in Cal is farming, farms need to have water to feed people. Orchards have to be watered or you loose them.. which starts a 10 year or so cycle if you have to replace them.
Even though I do not work or live in the Central Valley in Cal any longer I do know how important the farming that takes place there is to the entire US.
I always have to laugh at people where I live talking about conserving water... Mine comes from a well.. my sewage is a septic system that eventually recycles the water and it ends up back in the well (except for the water that evaporates when I water the lawn...or when I get a drink at home then pee in town)!

HOLLYWOOD
Well you are correct. But by diverting the water so far upstream in the Sacramento river, the lower Sacramento river/Delta salinity levels are rising. Word in the delta area is that farmers are in danger of losing their farmland there because of rising salinity levels in the irrigation water that were not present there decades ago. By building the twin pipes, even more fresh water will be diverted further raising salinity levels to the point where they cannot use the water for irrigation. Of course the rising salinity levels affect much more than just the farming- fish, birds, sealife, ecology, etc.So it's not as simple as "LA is just recycling the water into the ocean so it's ok."
I found when i briefly researched the twin pipes project, the consequences are very complicated and difficult to predict. Professional opinions vary greatly regarding the consequences.
If you 'follow the money' in regards to the project you wouldn't be happy as a california tax payer as we are supposed to foot a large portion of the bill for it without a guaranteed return on investment. But many water companies, power plants , and farms will yield massive profits from the twin pipes.

My personal perception is that it will be good for LA and the south central valley farming community, but very bad for the delta ecology, farmers, and marine industries.


PS I'm not a treehugger- really.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:31 AM   #22
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I totally agree

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Well you are correct. But by diverting the water so far upstream in the Sacramento river, the lower Sacramento river/Delta salinity levels are rising. Word in the delta area is that farmers are in danger of losing their farmland there because of rising salinity levels in the irrigation water that were not present there decades ago. By building the twin pipes, even more fresh water will be diverted further raising salinity levels to the point where they cannot use the water for irrigation. Of course the rising salinity levels affect much more than just the farming- fish, birds, sealife, ecology, etc.So it's not as simple as "LA is just recycling the water into the ocean so it's ok."
I found when i briefly researched the twin pipes project, the consequences are very complicated and difficult to predict. Professional opinions vary greatly regarding the consequences.
If you 'follow the money' in regards to the project you wouldn't be happy as a california tax payer as we are supposed to foot a large portion of the bill for it without a guaranteed return on investment. But many water companies, power plants , and farms will yield massive profits from the twin pipes.

My personal perception is that it will be good for LA and the south central valley farming community, but very bad for the delta ecology, farmers, and marine industries.


PS I'm not a treehugger- really.
Follow the money. If you look at the retail price of water vts the wholesale price per acre ft it's unbelievable.
But my concern really has to do with the lack of well studied environmental reports on what the Delta will look like without the fresh water flush from this Sacramento river water. I think the results would be obvious and the water contractors know it. We really don't need another Owens valley rape. Alaska and Canada have lots of surplus water, let's the south land buy it from Canada an idea Jerry Moonbeam Brown campaigned against he he wanted limit California population growth. We pipe oil and gas. bottled water costs more than gas.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:44 AM   #23
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If it's any consolation, California recently shipped water to Mexico to save an endangered desert fauna.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:57 AM   #24
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Much of what you say I'm sure is true. But water for the last few million years or so has drained down from the mountains and out to the ocean through the GG bridge. Now much (sometime much too much) of that clean , fresh, mountain water is being diverted very far upstream for irrigation and domestic use in LA.
That whole equation started changing with the Gold Rush and hydraulic mining, which changed the nature of the rivers and the water flow forever. Not long after that practice was ended, the construction of the Delta began, adding new demands for agricultural water in addition to the vast growth in farming in the valley proper (which reduced the San Joaquin above Stockton almost to a creek). Then came the aqueducts, another tragedy depending on your point of view.

What is really ironic is that Southern California , water supply wise, is not experiencing much of a "drought" at all! What's wrong with that picture?!
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:19 PM   #25
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Ok,
Yes So Cal needs to do more desalination, solar powered would be great.
HOLLYWOOD
And there is the solution for SO CA! Let those folks pay for the desalination plants if they want more water.

They need to leave the rivers in central and northern CA alone and stop stealing their water and farm lands. CA also needs to wake up and flush those little "protected" fish down river and open the valve for the farmers that feed ME and my family!
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:21 PM   #26
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The San Joaquin River must be the most "abused." I've backpacked in its headwaters between Yosemite and Kings Canyon national parks. Soon below timberline a series of reservoirs begin to collect water for electrical generation and then for irrigation diversion. By the time I cross the great Central Valley on the way home, long before reaching the Delta, the riverbed is completely dry. None of the west-flowing water of the southern Sierra Nevada Mountains reaches the Pacific.
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:06 PM   #27
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Those "little protected fish", the Delta Smelt, are like the canary in the coal mine. Ignore them at your own peril. These fish are very low on the food chain and the ripple effect from their extinction will flow through the food chain affecting nearly all the delta wildlife.

The politicians like Dianne Feinstein are financial benefactors to the contributions of big water companies and water consumers like the Westlands Water District and Paramount Farms/Louis Resnick. They are now beholden to the water companies and big company farmers to produce the water as part of the quid pro quo for their financial contributions/bribes. Listen here from 31:50 through about 41:30 for further discussion about CA Delta water export politics.

Don't be fooled by their claimed need to provide for the small farmer when it's the small delta farmer who is getting his fresh water sent south to the big farm companies like ADM. Our local farmers are being told that the salinity dams will be installed as soon as next month and their water supplies in Sutter and Steamboat Sloughs will become brackish and unsuitable for farming.

The big company farms have for years, even before the drought, been leaving strips of land go fallow along Interstate 5 to give the false impression of a lack of water. Flying over the area, it's blatantly obvious as you can plainly see the green fields of crops just a few hundred yards away from the interstate and in the middle of the thousand acre farms lie these huge 5000+ sq ft mansions with gated circular driveways, tennis courts and luxury pools and gardens.

Their annual water allocations far exceed their needs and they then resell the water during high water years at a huge profit. Their true 100% need lies at about 60% of their annual allocation. So they get 40% more water than they need during a 100% allocation year to resell and line their pockets. So when you drive down I-5 and see their many signs complaining that they are only getting 60-75% of their allocation, know that they are still meeting their needs and even making a profit on that water that they don't need.

Farmers throughout the central valley who are dependent on the delta water have been told for decades that they are not to plant enduring crops (not the right term) like trees/vines producing walnuts, grapes, pecans, almonds due to the unreliability of the water source. The plan was for them to plant annually based upon projected water supplies. They have ignored that recommendation and now plead for pity that their investment in fruit trees and vines are going to be lost. They are victims of their own greed and ignorance.
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Old 04-10-2014, 06:07 PM   #28
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"Infusion of river water hits restoration site": fresh infusions of water reached a key Colorado restoration site in Baja California, Mexico. The flow consists of 105,000 acre-feet of water-enough to supply 200,000 American households for a year. What water shortage?
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:17 PM   #29
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So when you drive down I-5 and see their many signs complaining that they are only getting 60-75% of their allocation, know that they are still meeting their needs and even making a profit on that water that they don't need.

.
Actually,
Years ago before moving to the PNW I did a lot of business in the Southern Central Valley for farmers. Some of them would of been called "corporate" farmers.. because of the size of their operations. They were all 3+ generation family farmers but farmed 1000's of acres.

Most of the "native" land you see next to I-5 has been placed in a program that some agency came up with the idea to "trade" land to be developed in other so cal areas for land there to be left "native". The parcels have to be let to go to a native state so the kangaroo rats and such have a place to call home. I and everybody I knew that farmed in the Valley thought it was a crock of shit. Farmers would rather not farm the acreage adjacent to the hwy as it is a liability issue due to being sued for water overspray on the highway, dust from plow down, chemical spray concerns and a bunch of other issues. So the farmers got rid of land they didn't really like to farm and sold it for the program.

The entire central valley is really a high desert environment and there have been water issues forever. If climate change didn't bring such drought conditions it probably wouldnt be much of a issue.
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:19 AM   #30
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Some of the signs by farmers

Some signs seen along I5. In photo #3, you can even see the green fields in the background. It's all a fraud.








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Old 04-11-2014, 12:37 AM   #31
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I've never read a discussion of the effects to the Bay Area when water is cut and diverted. It seems that when the water flow (velocity) is cut through the north and central bay that higher amounts of sediment will fall out of suspension resulting in increased rate of siltation. Shipping could suffer from higher costs of dredging, etc. Frank Quan complained how the water diversion in the '60s ruined his shrimping at China Camp.

Has anyone heard about the effects on the San Francisco Bay Area after another, and larger, diversion?
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:45 AM   #32
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Don't they get much of their water from Hetch Hetchy, bypassing the Delta and its exports?

Hetch Hetchy Water System | BAWSCA
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:06 AM   #33
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SF tried to buy(steal) water from Oakdale (a small foothill community) and the officials almost got it through until the farmers and the rest of the community found out and put a stop to it at a board meeting a few weeks ago. Big city with all the money and votes greases the palms of a few officials then they steal someone else's water. LA drains the Colorado and the Delta while the bay area drains the headwaters of the Sierras. California needs to be split into two or more states. Glad I no longer reside there.
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:22 AM   #34
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Don't they get much of their water from Hetch Hetchy, bypassing the Delta and its exports?

Hetch Hetchy Water System | BAWSCA
Not referring to drinking water. More a natural water flow from the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers being reduced resulting in lower flow and velocities through the Bay. If the flow is reduced, small particles will fall out of suspension causing an increase in the rate of siltation. The economic impact to the few remaining industries around the bay could be real and measured.
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