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Old 09-24-2013, 08:41 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
.......It would appear that tactics have everything to do with the outcome (along with the obvious "shadow drive" Oracle must have. I have never seen a sail boat pass another one like Oracle did in that last race.) It'll be a real dog fight tomorrow!
Hey Walt - that's it - they must have a 'wing' engine..!
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:42 PM   #82
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I think that should be 1:00 on the west coast, Dwhatty. If my math is correct, that's 4:00 ET. It's been 2 hr coverage, so you should have it covered.

Right now, my 1300-1500 programming is showing Charlie Moore, Wakeboarding, The Crossover and Pro Football Talk. Since these AC Races are running more days than expected, I suspect the regularly scheduled programming is still listed in the on-screen guide and lot updated until the next day, if at all. Today's listings didn't update on my TV until a couple of hours before the race.

Here's a replay of today's races.

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Old 09-24-2013, 10:00 PM   #83
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This has become depressing for us Kiwi's although I have to give credit to Oracle who clearly sailed a good race and the Oracle crew are working that boat to the end.

After tomorrow I just hope the lawyers stay clear of the result on both sides, as word on the water is that Oracles attorneys will file suit if they lose claiming that they would have won except for the EXCESSIVE penalty for cheating.

If I were in Vegas I would bet 2 to 1 on Oracle but we are in MS boating so we will just keep our fingers crossed again.....
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:27 PM   #84
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I was fortunate to be an on water spectator for the 25th defense in 83. I am now fortuante enough to be a spectator of the 34th defense. I have to say these cats along with the media's technological advances have made this racing much more exciting to watch, especially now that is not a blowout anymore. Go Oracle!
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:22 AM   #85
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I'm totally loving this race series. You kidding me? 60 mph sailboats!!! I used to be a sailor and would truthfully say "the only sport where you drive to a marina at 60 mph, to go 6 mph all day". Used to come home after being off on a sailing trip for a week, and the first thing I would do would be to get in my 442 or 6.3 and ROAR up and down the McArthur Causeway at 100 mph, just to "get back to normal" after spending a week at "whoo-hoo we hit 8 coming down that wave". NOW?! Wow. Those cat's are outrunning high performance boats! For those who've run big fast power boats, you can imagine the wind coming across those cats. I would love to take a ride on one. First year I've ever enjoyed the America's cup. Can't beat the beautiful background of the Bay either. Some really NICE yachts there in the background too. It's always been a billionaire sport, but this is the first time it's appealed to thrill junkies. Certainly the first boat races I've found myself jumping out of my chair when those cat's fly. I mean- people DIE. Take that Nascar!
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:25 PM   #86
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Soooo! Great final race. Impressive.

But I am confused.

Can someone please tell me who won?

Did the Kiwis beat the Aussies, or vice versa?

Or did an American billionaire beat an Arab airline company?
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:27 PM   #87
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I can say without any hesitation that I have never seen a more classy and honorable opponent than ETNZ. Emirates set the bar, lived on the leading edge of the new technology and was the first to really grasp the concepts essential to winning the Cup. You dominated the competition with all other challengers and through half of the finals. What a record!!

Oracle was fortunate to be able to observe then compete with ETNZ to learn how to do it right. Without that example, I doubt we would have reached the pinnacle. Credit also goes to all those Oracle engineers sitting at computer screens until 5AM working out all the tweaks to the boat that ultimately made the Oracle boat just "that" much faster.

I have watched several America's Cup regattas but this was, by far, the most classy, the most interesting, the most evenly matched, the most exciting...and the longest... in history. No doubt this comeback and victory will go down in the annals of history as the most incredible comeback of all sporting events.

Thanks to the Aussies and the Kiwis for making this such a fantastic event. I hope the Americans have learned a thing or two about sportsmanship and class in sports by observing the competitors from your two countries. Sincerely, I wish we were more like you.

Thanks for a great Cup Regatta. I really can't wait for the next one. Might even find myself rooting for the challenger!

All I can say is WOW!!!


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Old 09-25-2013, 06:30 PM   #88
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Great to watch but.........
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:32 PM   #89
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Sometimes it gives me the s**ts when I'm right, and that is wrooooong...!

I really feel for Dean and his crew now - they will be feeling about as low, as Jimmy Spithill and his crew are feeling high...but in the end, they were beaten by a faster boat. They did nothing wrong, if you discount the hiccup when they tipped up and let Oracle through for her first win back at race 4 I think. Then there was the wind peaking out and robbing them twice, then dropping to low and the time limit robbing them - any one of which would have clinched the Cup. But, that's the way it played out, and whereas they had learnt to wring the max out of their boat during Luis Vuitton, so there was little left to discover, Team USA was still learning to get the max out of theirs, and did end up with a faster boat. Otherwise there is no way you come back from 8:1 down, so all credit to them, it sure was exciting racing.

Now what next eh...? The sad thing is NZ may not challenge again, it has got so expensive. I hope they do, but won't be surprised if they don't.
Congrats USA..!
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:15 PM   #90
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I am one of 4 million gutted Kiwi's but congrats to Oracle they sailed their boat well and gave it 150% and deserved the win.

The ball is in Larry Ellison's camp again I just hope he sets the rules for the next cup so that more than 4 nations can compete. At this point he may be the only one showing up to race in 4 years if things dont change.

Now back to working on my trawler's to do list instead of waiting for the daily fix of Americas Cup racing.

I feel for TNZ......
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:42 PM   #91
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Soooo! Great final race. Impressive.

But I am confused.

Can someone please tell me who won?

Did the Kiwis beat the Aussies, or vice versa?

Or did an American billionaire beat an Arab airline company?
Not to pick a fight but the NHL back in the late 60's, just 2% of the players were US born. Lena's family is from Quebec so I know the argument. And yes an American billionaire beat an Arab airline company, Yaho!!
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:47 PM   #92
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Peter B and Kiwi, I take my hat off to you both. You are real sportsmen. The fastest boat won, simple as that. OK, not quite as simple as that but you know what I mean. Maybe we should swop boats and race again!

A fantastic series and in typical Kiwi fashion, you pushed the US to the limits. Well done!

Now if you could only play rugby....
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:48 PM   #93
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looks like the next AC races could be held in San Francisco Bay again
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:12 AM   #94
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The race organisers must be pleased with the regatta, had it all really.Do feel for the Kiwi's though.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:24 PM   #95
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Did these boats ever have names?

All I ever saw was "17" on the Oracle boat. No reference to boat names that I was aware of.

We've come a long way from the days of old. Here's an historic film shot by Thomas Edison of J.P. Morgan's Columbia win in 1899.

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Old 09-26-2013, 07:22 PM   #96
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Peter B and Kiwi, I take my hat off to you both. You are real sportsmen. The fastest boat won, simple as that. OK, not quite as simple as that but you know what I mean. Maybe we should swop boats and race again!

A fantastic series and in typical Kiwi fashion, you pushed the US to the limits. Well done!

Now if you could only play rugby....
Thanks for the laugh about the Rugby - the news back down under is that we push ourselves to the phscological limit in ALL our sports.

I dont remember it being this bad back in the 70's when I bought my first "P class" sailing dingy a 7 foot trainer with 49 sq foot of sail that most Kiwis learned to sail on.

It is a different world and I guess we all have to adapt.......
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:31 PM   #97
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Just curious, do you think the Oracle corporation can write this whole campaign off as an advertising expense? The name Oracle was plastered on everything related to the campaign and surely helped their name recognition.

In any case, it was, without a doubt, the most exciting sailboat racing ever seen up to now. I can't wait to see what will happen in the next challenge. Can they top this?

Ron
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:18 PM   #98
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Here is an interesting article about how Oracle may have been able to foil so well in the end.

This may put some vegemite in your sandwhich

Sail-World.com : America's Cup: Speculation on Oracle Team USA's foiling system
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Old 09-29-2013, 06:27 PM   #99
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I went to most of the races, but had to leave town and missed the last few. I kept rescheduling my trip, but couldn’t hold it off anymore. But, at least I was able to watch them all on YouTube, which was better than broadcast TV as they had no commercials. As mentioned before, I live for this stuff. Observations –

It may not have been the biggest, or most popular. But, without a doubt, it was the most incredible sporting event ever. You couldn’t make this stuff up. Of course, Red Sox fans may not agree, but their comeback was nothing compared to this. They could have made an error or two and still win the game. And, they only had to do it 4 times. Oracle had zero cushion and had to do it 8 times. No comparison.

We were all lucky – the boats were very close speed wise. None of the experts were expecting much competition and I agreed with them. The reason is because these are early developmental boats with steep learning curves (as mentioned many times on TV) and it’s quite common in such a scenario for one boat to be much faster than the other. The one sided non-competitive LV Cup only added to this prediction. And, understand that the LV cup has always had better racing than the AC. I was worried.

Upwind speed always kills. Everytime. No exceptions.

If you wanted interesting and valuable news on the races and all things related, The New Zealand Herald was the place to turn to. If you wanted technical info, the sailinganarchy forum was by far the best place. A lot of smart sailboat racers there.

Get rid of the last leg. It’s for show only and good for the people at the finish line (pier 27-29), but nobody else. No chance for close finishes as whoever rounds the last mark will win the race easily. Normal finish line next time please.

When down 8-1 and Jimmy Spithill said “Imagine our comeback ...”, did anybody other than me wonder which asylum he just escaped from? Or, how many minutes after the press conference it would take before he was put in a straight jacket?

I don’t feel sorry for Oracle and their minus 2 points. Even though it occurred over a year ago and in a different regatta, they signed off on the rules.

And, I don’t feel sorry for ETNZ or their fans because of the time and wind limits either. They also signed off on the rules. Can you imagine if the wind was just a knot or two higher when their boat almost capsized? Most likely their entire regatta would have ended right then and there. Safety, safety, safety.

However, there is one reason to feel sorry for the Kiwi fans – TVNZ announcers Martin Tasker and Peter Lester didn't have any idea about the 40 minute time limit. So the poor Kiwi fans thought that they had the AC won until it was called off without warning! They weren't too happy about that. I have a feeling that the best sailing announcer in history, PJ Montgomery, who was doing NZ radio broadcast didn't make the same blunder. At least the U.S. announcers warned everyone pretty much from the beginning so it was no surprise here.

The time limit is necessary if high speed races are wanted. However, the 5 knot low end wind limit was not very well thought out beforehand. Fortunately, everybody agreed to change it to 10 knots.

But, as we saw, these boats don't perform very well (or excitingly I should say) at 10 knots.

Which brings me to the next point – Larry Ellison has kicked around other venues for the next cup races (as he did previously for this cup also), such as Newport, San Diego, and even around his island of Lanai! If he wants to keep using this type of boat, the problems are, of course, not enough winds for these exciting boats at the first 2 locations, and too rough of conditions at the last option. These boats could be made to withstand the conditions, but I don't think they would be able to foil very well in 4'-6' seas. Plus, I think it would be too dangerous for the sailors. Bottom line – these boats need relatively flat water combined with good winds in order to have a chance to reproduce these exciting races. Where else on Earth is there a place similar to this, other than SF?

However, can you blame him for kicking around other venues? He’s had to deal with the treehugging, liberal morons that make up the SF city council. One of them even said 3 days ago “I think we should give San Diego the opportunity to subsidize Larry Ellisons hobby”. This idiot goes on to admit that he enjoyed watching the event live and on TV. Is this a joke? Can he possibly be taken seriously? Wouldn’t blame you Larry if you just flipped them the big bird and packed up.

Who knows how much money was brought into the local economy, but I can guarantee you that there were a lot of people there because of this event. More than I’ve ever seen. You could hardly walk around pier 39, even during a weekday. And I know I spent a lot of money.

Hell, even Vallejo made out. I don’t know if the city makes money on the ferry service itself, but I paid for parking every day and fed 2-4 people breakfast every day at the ferry building. The ferry’s were pretty much full (with lots of AC fans) everyday, and in fact, left people on the dock on the weekends. Haven’t seen that before.

These boats are very dangerous, I don’t care what Dean Barker says. And, I wish I could say that they’ll keep racing them until somebody gets killed, but unfortunately that’s already happened. Remember seeing them going downwind at 40+knots with one boat just a few meters behind the other one? Not off to the side, but right behind. If the lead boats has any sort of issue at all and slows down just a little at that point, it’ll be catastrophic. I don’t want to see it.

Slow boats make a tactician look bad and fast boats make tacticians look good.

And, damn, I don’t want to write this as I’m a Kostecki fan, but after watching the races again, Oracle should have won the 3rd race, and could have won the 5th race if it weren’t for a couple of inexcusable, boneheaded tactical blunders. Many say that ETNZ was much faster upwind early in the regatta. That’s simply not true. They may have been a tiny bit faster, but that’s all. What they were though, was much better tacking upwind – on the first day only. By the 3rd race (second day), Oracle was much improved (still not as good as ETNZ though) tacking and pretty much keeping up with ETNZ speed wise, but falling behind tactically. After taking a couple of races to get comfortable, the afterguard was excellent. Combine that with improved upwind speed and things began to turn around for Oracle

If the races do end up in SF again –

Pier 27-29 was excellent for activity (dock out, the teams, etc.) and seeing the finish. But, you could only see the bottom third to half of the course!

Jeremiah O’Brian – You could see two thirds of the course, but literally had to climb ships ladders to see the upper third of the course. Admiral like being aboard, but wasn’t happy with the sight lines. Didn’t go back there.

Marina Green – the best, as you could see the entire course except the finish (which didn’t matter as the race was virtually over at the 5th mark anyway).

Jimmy Spithill is the new Paul Cayard. Ever watch a Paul Cayard race? Win, lose or draw, there was going to be some excitement. Collisions, or near collisions almost everytime. Lots of protests. Close, exciting and fun to watch! Jimmy Spithill’s aggressiveness was the single, most important factor contributing to this most exciting regatta.

They need to change something regarding penalties. You could barely tell that the penalized boat paid a price. Obviously, they can’t go back to the 270 degree turn as the other boat would pull away by hundreds of meters, but maybe slow them down to 30 knots downwind for 5 seconds and upwind to 15 knots or so for 5 seconds. I don’t know what the best answer is, but they need to think about it, because it was a joke.

Dean Barker – class. He was frustrated, but never once did he complain about time or wind limits or try to point the finger at anybody or anything.

The capsize save – the announcers correctly pointed out that the grinders kept grinding and therefore the hydraulic pressure came back and corrected the sail orientation, which in turn saved the boat. Not entirely true. If you watch closely from overhead, the boat is already coming back into the wind before the sail switches over to the correct side. In other words, Dean Barker saved the boat and their regatta.

In the UK, the news says that Sir Ben is what got Oracle over the hump. Fine with me.

One of Larry Ellison’s stated goals was to expose sailing to everyone and up the interest. I can state first hand that he has done it. For years, I’ve tried to get my family interested in the AC to no avail. Not only were they going to the races with me, but they went when I was away also, on their own! And, we have a couple of sailing kayaks on a lake that are slow, but evenly matched, so therefore good for racing. Couldn’t get them to race me. Always had to get friends to do it. Now, they’ve challenged me. Next weekend it’s on!

Another stated goals is to get the cost down next time so there will be more competitors. And one of the biggest costs is the wingsails., so going back to softsails would obviously help a lot. Don’t know how much that would affect speed though. Need to ask the smart guys on sailinganarcy.

Comment #1 we’ve all probably heard – “this is not a race between countries, it’s a race between technologies”. Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

Comment #2 we’ve all probably heard – “this is a money race between zillionaires and/or government money” Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

I didn’t change my socks or underwear for 3 days when I was out of town (my wife wasn’t with me so she didn’t know). But, I’m not superstitious (just kidding about the underwear part).

The boat names - ENTZ Aotearoa, Oracle 17
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:09 PM   #100
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Awesome Post!!!

My wife and I scheduled our day around racetime. It was an amazing series.

I have lots of questions.
Where were the boats berthed? Away from prying eyes?
Where are the camera batteries stored? Boat telemetrY?
Did the crew all stay in a hotel or rent apts?

I read some of the NZ papers and there was some implication that Oracles new found speed was a result of .....something ...bad.

I love Frisco but hate the politics. (Yes I know..Frisco)

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I went to most of the races, but had to leave town and missed the last few. I kept rescheduling my trip, but couldn’t hold it off anymore. But, at least I was able to watch them all on YouTube, which was better than broadcast TV as they had no commercials. As mentioned before, I live for this stuff. Observations –

It may not have been the biggest, or most popular. But, without a doubt, it was the most incredible sporting event ever. You couldn’t make this stuff up. Of course, Red Sox fans may not agree, but their comeback was nothing compared to this. They could have made an error or two and still win the game. And, they only had to do it 4 times. Oracle had zero cushion and had to do it 8 times. No comparison.

We were all lucky – the boats were very close speed wise. None of the experts were expecting much competition and I agreed with them. The reason is because these are early developmental boats with steep learning curves (as mentioned many times on TV) and it’s quite common in such a scenario for one boat to be much faster than the other. The one sided non-competitive LV Cup only added to this prediction. And, understand that the LV cup has always had better racing than the AC. I was worried.

Upwind speed always kills. Everytime. No exceptions.

If you wanted interesting and valuable news on the races and all things related, The New Zealand Herald was the place to turn to. If you wanted technical info, the sailinganarchy forum was by far the best place. A lot of smart sailboat racers there.

Get rid of the last leg. It’s for show only and good for the people at the finish line (pier 27-29), but nobody else. No chance for close finishes as whoever rounds the last mark will win the race easily. Normal finish line next time please.

When down 8-1 and Jimmy Spithill said “Imagine our comeback ...”, did anybody other than me wonder which asylum he just escaped from? Or, how many minutes after the press conference it would take before he was put in a straight jacket?

I don’t feel sorry for Oracle and their minus 2 points. Even though it occurred over a year ago and in a different regatta, they signed off on the rules.

And, I don’t feel sorry for ETNZ or their fans because of the time and wind limits either. They also signed off on the rules. Can you imagine if the wind was just a knot or two higher when their boat almost capsized? Most likely their entire regatta would have ended right then and there. Safety, safety, safety.

However, there is one reason to feel sorry for the Kiwi fans – TVNZ announcers Martin Tasker and Peter Lester didn't have any idea about the 40 minute time limit. So the poor Kiwi fans thought that they had the AC won until it was called off without warning! They weren't too happy about that. I have a feeling that the best sailing announcer in history, PJ Montgomery, who was doing NZ radio broadcast didn't make the same blunder. At least the U.S. announcers warned everyone pretty much from the beginning so it was no surprise here.

The time limit is necessary if high speed races are wanted. However, the 5 knot low end wind limit was not very well thought out beforehand. Fortunately, everybody agreed to change it to 10 knots.

But, as we saw, these boats don't perform very well (or excitingly I should say) at 10 knots.

Which brings me to the next point – Larry Ellison has kicked around other venues for the next cup races (as he did previously for this cup also), such as Newport, San Diego, and even around his island of Lanai! If he wants to keep using this type of boat, the problems are, of course, not enough winds for these exciting boats at the first 2 locations, and too rough of conditions at the last option. These boats could be made to withstand the conditions, but I don't think they would be able to foil very well in 4'-6' seas. Plus, I think it would be too dangerous for the sailors. Bottom line – these boats need relatively flat water combined with good winds in order to have a chance to reproduce these exciting races. Where else on Earth is there a place similar to this, other than SF?

However, can you blame him for kicking around other venues? He’s had to deal with the treehugging, liberal morons that make up the SF city council. One of them even said 3 days ago “I think we should give San Diego the opportunity to subsidize Larry Ellisons hobby”. This idiot goes on to admit that he enjoyed watching the event live and on TV. Is this a joke? Can he possibly be taken seriously? Wouldn’t blame you Larry if you just flipped them the big bird and packed up.

Who knows how much money was brought into the local economy, but I can guarantee you that there were a lot of people there because of this event. More than I’ve ever seen. You could hardly walk around pier 39, even during a weekday. And I know I spent a lot of money.

Hell, even Vallejo made out. I don’t know if the city makes money on the ferry service itself, but I paid for parking every day and fed 2-4 people breakfast every day at the ferry building. The ferry’s were pretty much full (with lots of AC fans) everyday, and in fact, left people on the dock on the weekends. Haven’t seen that before.

These boats are very dangerous, I don’t care what Dean Barker says. And, I wish I could say that they’ll keep racing them until somebody gets killed, but unfortunately that’s already happened. Remember seeing them going downwind at 40+knots with one boat just a few meters behind the other one? Not off to the side, but right behind. If the lead boats has any sort of issue at all and slows down just a little at that point, it’ll be catastrophic. I don’t want to see it.

Slow boats make a tactician look bad and fast boats make tacticians look good.

And, damn, I don’t want to write this as I’m a Kostecki fan, but after watching the races again, Oracle should have won the 3rd race, and could have won the 5th race if it weren’t for a couple of inexcusable, boneheaded tactical blunders. Many say that ETNZ was much faster upwind early in the regatta. That’s simply not true. They may have been a tiny bit faster, but that’s all. What they were though, was much better tacking upwind – on the first day only. By the 3rd race (second day), Oracle was much improved (still not as good as ETNZ though) tacking and pretty much keeping up with ETNZ speed wise, but falling behind tactically. After taking a couple of races to get comfortable, the afterguard was excellent. Combine that with improved upwind speed and things began to turn around for Oracle

If the races do end up in SF again –

Pier 27-29 was excellent for activity (dock out, the teams, etc.) and seeing the finish. But, you could only see the bottom third to half of the course!

Jeremiah O’Brian – You could see two thirds of the course, but literally had to climb ships ladders to see the upper third of the course. Admiral like being aboard, but wasn’t happy with the sight lines. Didn’t go back there.

Marina Green – the best, as you could see the entire course except the finish (which didn’t matter as the race was virtually over at the 5th mark anyway).

Jimmy Spithill is the new Paul Cayard. Ever watch a Paul Cayard race? Win, lose or draw, there was going to be some excitement. Collisions, or near collisions almost everytime. Lots of protests. Close, exciting and fun to watch! Jimmy Spithill’s aggressiveness was the single, most important factor contributing to this most exciting regatta.

They need to change something regarding penalties. You could barely tell that the penalized boat paid a price. Obviously, they can’t go back to the 270 degree turn as the other boat would pull away by hundreds of meters, but maybe slow them down to 30 knots downwind for 5 seconds and upwind to 15 knots or so for 5 seconds. I don’t know what the best answer is, but they need to think about it, because it was a joke.

Dean Barker – class. He was frustrated, but never once did he complain about time or wind limits or try to point the finger at anybody or anything.

The capsize save – the announcers correctly pointed out that the grinders kept grinding and therefore the hydraulic pressure came back and corrected the sail orientation, which in turn saved the boat. Not entirely true. If you watch closely from overhead, the boat is already coming back into the wind before the sail switches over to the correct side. In other words, Dean Barker saved the boat and their regatta.

In the UK, the news says that Sir Ben is what got Oracle over the hump. Fine with me.

One of Larry Ellison’s stated goals was to expose sailing to everyone and up the interest. I can state first hand that he has done it. For years, I’ve tried to get my family interested in the AC to no avail. Not only were they going to the races with me, but they went when I was away also, on their own! And, we have a couple of sailing kayaks on a lake that are slow, but evenly matched, so therefore good for racing. Couldn’t get them to race me. Always had to get friends to do it. Now, they’ve challenged me. Next weekend it’s on!

Another stated goals is to get the cost down next time so there will be more competitors. And one of the biggest costs is the wingsails., so going back to softsails would obviously help a lot. Don’t know how much that would affect speed though. Need to ask the smart guys on sailinganarcy.

Comment #1 we’ve all probably heard – “this is not a race between countries, it’s a race between technologies”. Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

Comment #2 we’ve all probably heard – “this is a money race between zillionaires and/or government money” Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

I didn’t change my socks or underwear for 3 days when I was out of town (my wife wasn’t with me so she didn’t know). But, I’m not superstitious (just kidding about the underwear part).

The boat names - ENTZ Aotearoa, Oracle 17
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