America's Cup 2013

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Soooo! Great final race. Impressive.

But I am confused.

Can someone please tell me who won?

Did the Kiwis beat the Aussies, or vice versa?

Or did an American billionaire beat an Arab airline company?
Click to expand...

Not to pick a fight but the NHL back in the late 60's, just 2% of the players were US born. Lena's family is from Quebec so I know the argument. :) And yes an American billionaire beat an Arab airline company, Yaho!!
 
Peter B and Kiwi, I take my hat off to you both. You are real sportsmen. The fastest boat won, simple as that. OK, not quite as simple as that but you know what I mean. Maybe we should swop boats and race again!

A fantastic series and in typical Kiwi fashion, you pushed the US to the limits. Well done!

Now if you could only play rugby....
 
looks like the next AC races could be held in San Francisco Bay again :thumb:
 
The race organisers must be pleased with the regatta, had it all really.Do feel for the Kiwi's though.
 
dimer2 said:
Peter B and Kiwi, I take my hat off to you both. You are real sportsmen. The fastest boat won, simple as that. OK, not quite as simple as that but you know what I mean. Maybe we should swop boats and race again!

A fantastic series and in typical Kiwi fashion, you pushed the US to the limits. Well done!

Now if you could only play rugby....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the laugh about the Rugby - the news back down under is that we push ourselves to the phscological limit in ALL our sports.

I dont remember it being this bad back in the 70's when I bought my first "P class" sailing dingy a 7 foot trainer with 49 sq foot of sail that most Kiwis learned to sail on.

It is a different world and I guess we all have to adapt.......:eek:
 
Just curious, do you think the Oracle corporation can write this whole campaign off as an advertising expense? The name Oracle was plastered on everything related to the campaign and surely helped their name recognition.

In any case, it was, without a doubt, the most exciting sailboat racing ever seen up to now. I can't wait to see what will happen in the next challenge. Can they top this?

Ron
 
I went to most of the races, but had to leave town and missed the last few. I kept rescheduling my trip, but couldn’t hold it off anymore. But, at least I was able to watch them all on YouTube, which was better than broadcast TV as they had no commercials. As mentioned before, I live for this stuff. Observations –

It may not have been the biggest, or most popular. But, without a doubt, it was the most incredible sporting event ever. You couldn’t make this stuff up. Of course, Red Sox fans may not agree, but their comeback was nothing compared to this. They could have made an error or two and still win the game. And, they only had to do it 4 times. Oracle had zero cushion and had to do it 8 times. No comparison.

We were all lucky – the boats were very close speed wise. None of the experts were expecting much competition and I agreed with them. The reason is because these are early developmental boats with steep learning curves (as mentioned many times on TV) and it’s quite common in such a scenario for one boat to be much faster than the other. The one sided non-competitive LV Cup only added to this prediction. And, understand that the LV cup has always had better racing than the AC. I was worried.

Upwind speed always kills. Everytime. No exceptions.

If you wanted interesting and valuable news on the races and all things related, The New Zealand Herald was the place to turn to. If you wanted technical info, the sailinganarchy forum was by far the best place. A lot of smart sailboat racers there.

Get rid of the last leg. It’s for show only and good for the people at the finish line (pier 27-29), but nobody else. No chance for close finishes as whoever rounds the last mark will win the race easily. Normal finish line next time please.

When down 8-1 and Jimmy Spithill said “Imagine our comeback ...”, did anybody other than me wonder which asylum he just escaped from? Or, how many minutes after the press conference it would take before he was put in a straight jacket?

I don’t feel sorry for Oracle and their minus 2 points. Even though it occurred over a year ago and in a different regatta, they signed off on the rules.

And, I don’t feel sorry for ETNZ or their fans because of the time and wind limits either. They also signed off on the rules. Can you imagine if the wind was just a knot or two higher when their boat almost capsized? Most likely their entire regatta would have ended right then and there. Safety, safety, safety.

However, there is one reason to feel sorry for the Kiwi fans – TVNZ announcers Martin Tasker and Peter Lester didn't have any idea about the 40 minute time limit. So the poor Kiwi fans thought that they had the AC won until it was called off without warning! They weren't too happy about that. I have a feeling that the best sailing announcer in history, PJ Montgomery, who was doing NZ radio broadcast didn't make the same blunder. At least the U.S. announcers warned everyone pretty much from the beginning so it was no surprise here.

The time limit is necessary if high speed races are wanted. However, the 5 knot low end wind limit was not very well thought out beforehand. Fortunately, everybody agreed to change it to 10 knots.

But, as we saw, these boats don't perform very well (or excitingly I should say) at 10 knots.

Which brings me to the next point – Larry Ellison has kicked around other venues for the next cup races (as he did previously for this cup also), such as Newport, San Diego, and even around his island of Lanai! If he wants to keep using this type of boat, the problems are, of course, not enough winds for these exciting boats at the first 2 locations, and too rough of conditions at the last option. These boats could be made to withstand the conditions, but I don't think they would be able to foil very well in 4'-6' seas. Plus, I think it would be too dangerous for the sailors. Bottom line – these boats need relatively flat water combined with good winds in order to have a chance to reproduce these exciting races. Where else on Earth is there a place similar to this, other than SF?

However, can you blame him for kicking around other venues? He’s had to deal with the treehugging, liberal morons that make up the SF city council. One of them even said 3 days ago “I think we should give San Diego the opportunity to subsidize Larry Ellisons hobby”. This idiot goes on to admit that he enjoyed watching the event live and on TV. Is this a joke? Can he possibly be taken seriously? Wouldn’t blame you Larry if you just flipped them the big bird and packed up.

Who knows how much money was brought into the local economy, but I can guarantee you that there were a lot of people there because of this event. More than I’ve ever seen. You could hardly walk around pier 39, even during a weekday. And I know I spent a lot of money.

Hell, even Vallejo made out. I don’t know if the city makes money on the ferry service itself, but I paid for parking every day and fed 2-4 people breakfast every day at the ferry building. The ferry’s were pretty much full (with lots of AC fans) everyday, and in fact, left people on the dock on the weekends. Haven’t seen that before.

These boats are very dangerous, I don’t care what Dean Barker says. And, I wish I could say that they’ll keep racing them until somebody gets killed, but unfortunately that’s already happened. Remember seeing them going downwind at 40+knots with one boat just a few meters behind the other one? Not off to the side, but right behind. If the lead boats has any sort of issue at all and slows down just a little at that point, it’ll be catastrophic. I don’t want to see it.

Slow boats make a tactician look bad and fast boats make tacticians look good.

And, damn, I don’t want to write this as I’m a Kostecki fan, but after watching the races again, Oracle should have won the 3rd race, and could have won the 5th race if it weren’t for a couple of inexcusable, boneheaded tactical blunders. Many say that ETNZ was much faster upwind early in the regatta. That’s simply not true. They may have been a tiny bit faster, but that’s all. What they were though, was much better tacking upwind – on the first day only. By the 3rd race (second day), Oracle was much improved (still not as good as ETNZ though) tacking and pretty much keeping up with ETNZ speed wise, but falling behind tactically. After taking a couple of races to get comfortable, the afterguard was excellent. Combine that with improved upwind speed and things began to turn around for Oracle

If the races do end up in SF again –

Pier 27-29 was excellent for activity (dock out, the teams, etc.) and seeing the finish. But, you could only see the bottom third to half of the course!

Jeremiah O’Brian – You could see two thirds of the course, but literally had to climb ships ladders to see the upper third of the course. Admiral like being aboard, but wasn’t happy with the sight lines. Didn’t go back there.

Marina Green – the best, as you could see the entire course except the finish (which didn’t matter as the race was virtually over at the 5th mark anyway).

Jimmy Spithill is the new Paul Cayard. Ever watch a Paul Cayard race? Win, lose or draw, there was going to be some excitement. Collisions, or near collisions almost everytime. Lots of protests. Close, exciting and fun to watch! Jimmy Spithill’s aggressiveness was the single, most important factor contributing to this most exciting regatta.

They need to change something regarding penalties. You could barely tell that the penalized boat paid a price. Obviously, they can’t go back to the 270 degree turn as the other boat would pull away by hundreds of meters, but maybe slow them down to 30 knots downwind for 5 seconds and upwind to 15 knots or so for 5 seconds. I don’t know what the best answer is, but they need to think about it, because it was a joke.

Dean Barker – class. He was frustrated, but never once did he complain about time or wind limits or try to point the finger at anybody or anything.

The capsize save – the announcers correctly pointed out that the grinders kept grinding and therefore the hydraulic pressure came back and corrected the sail orientation, which in turn saved the boat. Not entirely true. If you watch closely from overhead, the boat is already coming back into the wind before the sail switches over to the correct side. In other words, Dean Barker saved the boat and their regatta.

In the UK, the news says that Sir Ben is what got Oracle over the hump. Fine with me.

One of Larry Ellison’s stated goals was to expose sailing to everyone and up the interest. I can state first hand that he has done it. For years, I’ve tried to get my family interested in the AC to no avail. Not only were they going to the races with me, but they went when I was away also, on their own! And, we have a couple of sailing kayaks on a lake that are slow, but evenly matched, so therefore good for racing. Couldn’t get them to race me. Always had to get friends to do it. Now, they’ve challenged me. Next weekend it’s on!

Another stated goals is to get the cost down next time so there will be more competitors. And one of the biggest costs is the wingsails., so going back to softsails would obviously help a lot. Don’t know how much that would affect speed though. Need to ask the smart guys on sailinganarcy.

Comment #1 we’ve all probably heard – “this is not a race between countries, it’s a race between technologies”. Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

Comment #2 we’ve all probably heard – “this is a money race between zillionaires and/or government money” Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

I didn’t change my socks or underwear for 3 days when I was out of town (my wife wasn’t with me so she didn’t know). But, I’m not superstitious (just kidding about the underwear part).

The boat names - ENTZ Aotearoa, Oracle 17
 
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Awesome Post!!!

My wife and I scheduled our day around racetime. It was an amazing series.

I have lots of questions.
Where were the boats berthed? Away from prying eyes?
Where are the camera batteries stored? Boat telemetrY?
Did the crew all stay in a hotel or rent apts?

I read some of the NZ papers and there was some implication that Oracles new found speed was a result of .....something ...bad.

I love Frisco but hate the politics. (Yes I know..Frisco)

Nsail said:
I went to most of the races, but had to leave town and missed the last few. I kept rescheduling my trip, but couldn’t hold it off anymore. But, at least I was able to watch them all on YouTube, which was better than broadcast TV as they had no commercials. As mentioned before, I live for this stuff. Observations –

It may not have been the biggest, or most popular. But, without a doubt, it was the most incredible sporting event ever. You couldn’t make this stuff up. Of course, Red Sox fans may not agree, but their comeback was nothing compared to this. They could have made an error or two and still win the game. And, they only had to do it 4 times. Oracle had zero cushion and had to do it 8 times. No comparison.

We were all lucky – the boats were very close speed wise. None of the experts were expecting much competition and I agreed with them. The reason is because these are early developmental boats with steep learning curves (as mentioned many times on TV) and it’s quite common in such a scenario for one boat to be much faster than the other. The one sided non-competitive LV Cup only added to this prediction. And, understand that the LV cup has always had better racing than the AC. I was worried.

Upwind speed always kills. Everytime. No exceptions.

If you wanted interesting and valuable news on the races and all things related, The New Zealand Herald was the place to turn to. If you wanted technical info, the sailinganarchy forum was by far the best place. A lot of smart sailboat racers there.

Get rid of the last leg. It’s for show only and good for the people at the finish line (pier 27-29), but nobody else. No chance for close finishes as whoever rounds the last mark will win the race easily. Normal finish line next time please.

When down 8-1 and Jimmy Spithill said “Imagine our comeback ...”, did anybody other than me wonder which asylum he just escaped from? Or, how many minutes after the press conference it would take before he was put in a straight jacket?

I don’t feel sorry for Oracle and their minus 2 points. Even though it occurred over a year ago and in a different regatta, they signed off on the rules.

And, I don’t feel sorry for ETNZ or their fans because of the time and wind limits either. They also signed off on the rules. Can you imagine if the wind was just a knot or two higher when their boat almost capsized? Most likely their entire regatta would have ended right then and there. Safety, safety, safety.

However, there is one reason to feel sorry for the Kiwi fans – TVNZ announcers Martin Tasker and Peter Lester didn't have any idea about the 40 minute time limit. So the poor Kiwi fans thought that they had the AC won until it was called off without warning! They weren't too happy about that. I have a feeling that the best sailing announcer in history, PJ Montgomery, who was doing NZ radio broadcast didn't make the same blunder. At least the U.S. announcers warned everyone pretty much from the beginning so it was no surprise here.

The time limit is necessary if high speed races are wanted. However, the 5 knot low end wind limit was not very well thought out beforehand. Fortunately, everybody agreed to change it to 10 knots.

But, as we saw, these boats don't perform very well (or excitingly I should say) at 10 knots.

Which brings me to the next point – Larry Ellison has kicked around other venues for the next cup races (as he did previously for this cup also), such as Newport, San Diego, and even around his island of Lanai! If he wants to keep using this type of boat, the problems are, of course, not enough winds for these exciting boats at the first 2 locations, and too rough of conditions at the last option. These boats could be made to withstand the conditions, but I don't think they would be able to foil very well in 4'-6' seas. Plus, I think it would be too dangerous for the sailors. Bottom line – these boats need relatively flat water combined with good winds in order to have a chance to reproduce these exciting races. Where else on Earth is there a place similar to this, other than SF?

However, can you blame him for kicking around other venues? He’s had to deal with the treehugging, liberal morons that make up the SF city council. One of them even said 3 days ago “I think we should give San Diego the opportunity to subsidize Larry Ellisons hobby”. This idiot goes on to admit that he enjoyed watching the event live and on TV. Is this a joke? Can he possibly be taken seriously? Wouldn’t blame you Larry if you just flipped them the big bird and packed up.

Who knows how much money was brought into the local economy, but I can guarantee you that there were a lot of people there because of this event. More than I’ve ever seen. You could hardly walk around pier 39, even during a weekday. And I know I spent a lot of money.

Hell, even Vallejo made out. I don’t know if the city makes money on the ferry service itself, but I paid for parking every day and fed 2-4 people breakfast every day at the ferry building. The ferry’s were pretty much full (with lots of AC fans) everyday, and in fact, left people on the dock on the weekends. Haven’t seen that before.

These boats are very dangerous, I don’t care what Dean Barker says. And, I wish I could say that they’ll keep racing them until somebody gets killed, but unfortunately that’s already happened. Remember seeing them going downwind at 40+knots with one boat just a few meters behind the other one? Not off to the side, but right behind. If the lead boats has any sort of issue at all and slows down just a little at that point, it’ll be catastrophic. I don’t want to see it.

Slow boats make a tactician look bad and fast boats make tacticians look good.

And, damn, I don’t want to write this as I’m a Kostecki fan, but after watching the races again, Oracle should have won the 3rd race, and could have won the 5th race if it weren’t for a couple of inexcusable, boneheaded tactical blunders. Many say that ETNZ was much faster upwind early in the regatta. That’s simply not true. They may have been a tiny bit faster, but that’s all. What they were though, was much better tacking upwind – on the first day only. By the 3rd race (second day), Oracle was much improved (still not as good as ETNZ though) tacking and pretty much keeping up with ETNZ speed wise, but falling behind tactically. After taking a couple of races to get comfortable, the afterguard was excellent. Combine that with improved upwind speed and things began to turn around for Oracle

If the races do end up in SF again –

Pier 27-29 was excellent for activity (dock out, the teams, etc.) and seeing the finish. But, you could only see the bottom third to half of the course!

Jeremiah O’Brian – You could see two thirds of the course, but literally had to climb ships ladders to see the upper third of the course. Admiral like being aboard, but wasn’t happy with the sight lines. Didn’t go back there.

Marina Green – the best, as you could see the entire course except the finish (which didn’t matter as the race was virtually over at the 5th mark anyway).

Jimmy Spithill is the new Paul Cayard. Ever watch a Paul Cayard race? Win, lose or draw, there was going to be some excitement. Collisions, or near collisions almost everytime. Lots of protests. Close, exciting and fun to watch! Jimmy Spithill’s aggressiveness was the single, most important factor contributing to this most exciting regatta.

They need to change something regarding penalties. You could barely tell that the penalized boat paid a price. Obviously, they can’t go back to the 270 degree turn as the other boat would pull away by hundreds of meters, but maybe slow them down to 30 knots downwind for 5 seconds and upwind to 15 knots or so for 5 seconds. I don’t know what the best answer is, but they need to think about it, because it was a joke.

Dean Barker – class. He was frustrated, but never once did he complain about time or wind limits or try to point the finger at anybody or anything.

The capsize save – the announcers correctly pointed out that the grinders kept grinding and therefore the hydraulic pressure came back and corrected the sail orientation, which in turn saved the boat. Not entirely true. If you watch closely from overhead, the boat is already coming back into the wind before the sail switches over to the correct side. In other words, Dean Barker saved the boat and their regatta.

In the UK, the news says that Sir Ben is what got Oracle over the hump. Fine with me.

One of Larry Ellison’s stated goals was to expose sailing to everyone and up the interest. I can state first hand that he has done it. For years, I’ve tried to get my family interested in the AC to no avail. Not only were they going to the races with me, but they went when I was away also, on their own! And, we have a couple of sailing kayaks on a lake that are slow, but evenly matched, so therefore good for racing. Couldn’t get them to race me. Always had to get friends to do it. Now, they’ve challenged me. Next weekend it’s on!

Another stated goals is to get the cost down next time so there will be more competitors. And one of the biggest costs is the wingsails., so going back to softsails would obviously help a lot. Don’t know how much that would affect speed though. Need to ask the smart guys on sailinganarcy.

Comment #1 we’ve all probably heard – “this is not a race between countries, it’s a race between technologies”. Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

Comment #2 we’ve all probably heard – “this is a money race between zillionaires and/or government money” Duh, yeah, just like the last 33 AC’s

I didn’t change my socks or underwear for 3 days when I was out of town (my wife wasn’t with me so she didn’t know). But, I’m not superstitious (just kidding about the underwear part).

The boat names - ENTZ Aotearoa, Oracle 17
Click to expand...
 
A very rich Aussie has become the challenger or record within seconds of Oracle winning that way they will have a say in the race rules 4 years from now.

For me I was pleased that TNZ received a great "welcome home" back in Auckland today.

Good onya mate
 
BigJim

Frisco! Damn, you beat me to it! I always say Frisco as that's what everybody called it when I was growing up.

Then some snobby, uppidy type person decided it wasn't dignified enough and word spread around town. I'm definitely anti-politically correct and love to use every time I'm around someone that I think may be offended.

ETNZ was just south of the bay bridge, but I don't remember what the pier number was. Oracle was a bit confusing. I think they were officially listed at pier 50 south of the bridge and I would see them sailing in from that direction sometimes. But they also had a large complex at Treasure Island and when I was flying out of Oakland (with tears in my eyes), Oracle was sailing from Treasure Island towards "Frisco" for that day's races.

When the boats went back to their bases, the wingsails were removed pretty fast and the hulls went into the sheds.

Don't know anything about the batteries or telemetry.

Yes, the crews were in rented apartments.

The people that are spreading rumors about something bad are poor losers and probably also insist that the US government planned the 911 tragedy.

Understand, that both boats were re-measured (inspected) after every modification. Neither could get away with anything illegal no matter what the crybabies say.
 
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gwkiwi said:
A very rich Aussie has become the challenger or record within seconds of Oracle winning that way they will have a say in the race rules 4 years from now.

For me I was pleased that TNZ received a great "welcome home" back in Auckland today.

Good onya mate
Click to expand...

If this turns out to be official and not a rumor, the official Challenger of Record will actually be the Hamilton Island Yacht Club from Queensland and not Bob Oatley himself. And, delivering the official challenge within seconds of completing the AC regatta is customary. Happens every time.

All Challenger of Records represent all of the challengers in race rules decisions. Just as it was this time. Nothing different here.

The other rumor is that Artemis (Royal Swedish Yacht Club) will be the Challenger of Record. I guess we'll find out in a couple of days.

And, it'll be good to get the Australians back. Them taking the cup in '83 is what really started to make this whole cup thing interesting. Thank you to two of my AC heroes - Alan Bond and John Bertrand!

Yes, ETNZ deserved a great "welcome home". Class act all around.
 
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I'll second the comments about NSail's most informative and knowledgeable analysis.

I still have the final race on my DVR and will probably watch it a few more times.... after thinking this AC series was going to be like watching paint dry, or grass grow.. it turned out to be an incredible experience.
 
I think we would all add amen, to that..
 
John Bertrand is still held in high esteem.
 
and Alan is still charismatic and can find diamonds down the back of the lounge suite.
 
Yeah, Bondy is one those truly lovable rogues...'course if you were one of those dudded by him, you would feel differently...
 
I think all of the above apply to Alan Bond.

On balance I think Aussies can live with a crook, as long as he/she is personable crook.You see we are descended from crooks(well some of us anyway). Though he is originally from England.

Also, his life has not been all plain sailing.(sorry, pun not intended)

As we are talking about the cup I will relate the following from a really great free magazine distributed around Sydney called 'Afloat', Bruce has mentioned this mag before.

One of the articles this month hark back to the fabled 83' challenge,written by a guy called Bruce Stannard, he covered the cup 83 regatta as a reporter and also wrote Ben Lexcen's & Dennis Conner's biography, so he knows what's what.

We had two challengers for that series, the first we all know about, the second was also a Lexcen design called 'Challenge 12' without the winged keel. Originally Bond owned it as a back up if the winged keel boat was a dud.It wasn't, so he sold it and the Royal Victoria Yacht Club entered it in the challenge series.

This boat as very competitive, claimed to be better down wind than Australia11. At the end of the first qualifying races, Australia 11was to race the Canadian challenger, which was not in the same league as the flying winged keel boat.

An accident happened on race day, that took out the bowman of Australia 11, and despite the offer from Challenge 12 to lend them their bowman, to enable them to race, they declined and forfeited the race to the Canadians, thereby knocking out Challenger 12 from the series on a point differential.

It seems they were not keen in racing Challenger 12 in the light airs that were prevailing.

Fancy that, Aussie on Aussie skulduggery! Don't you just love the America's Cup.

Postscript. After the elimination the crew were tossed out of the rented accommodation to make way for friends of the syndicate backer, Stannard says most weren't even in Rhode island to watch the main event.
 
This series certainly rekindled my interest. I sure hope they can get the costs down because the 40 kt boats seem to appeal to a much broader audience. They're not the romantic, sexy monohulls of yore, but, hey, this is a contest of speed, not nostalgia.
 
If anyone knows how to upload an mp3 file or convert it to another forum-compatible format, let me know.

I have an interesting phone interview with one of the Naval Architects, Paul Beiker in mp3 format. He describes design tweaks made to the foils and using a supercomputer to run analyses of proposed changes.
 
Aussie challengers for next AC were practising on Sydney Harbour last Sunday. Think this is the actual challenger boat, looked suitably sinister. sponsored by Bob Oatley Wines,(deep pockets, esp. after selling Rosemount to Fosters( now Treasury Wine Estates, for lots of $). Upwind tacks looked slow, but after tacking good boatspeed in about 10 knots of breeze.
 
Very plausible reason for improved performance. Probably one of many.



No, not the actual challenger boat. The actual 35th AC boat design, cup protocol and venue hasn't even been announced yet. Hopefully, by the end of the month.

This is the first Australian AC 45, which will be used for all of the run up events in the next few years. In fact, they were out practicing with Oracle the last few days.
 
Thanks Nsail, thought it seemed too early. I saw what I thought was a second boat at the Woolwich dock base with sail logo "Oracle".
Here`s hoping for an exciting challenger selection and race series. May it be more successful than one of our 12M challengers, 'Dame Patty" (named after the wife of a former Prime Minister), renamed "Damn Pity".
 
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