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Old 11-02-2012, 07:27 PM   #101
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"Horsh*t.... for us small boaters"

for YOU maybe. I think Hemmingway would move to the next bar stool if you walked in with that shi**y attitude.

Daddyo, screw the idiots passing judgement. You know what they do not.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:35 PM   #102
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Marin

I've no quibble with Daddyo's outcome nor what you say. Daddyo chose to take his decision public and post his minute by minute swings, thus opening himself to kudos and criticisms. He could have stayed quiet and kept it less Hollywood, hardly popular in these Twitter and Facebook times.

You should realize better than anyone the printed word is subject to introspection and comment by others. Some of us have dealt with negative outcomes, hearings and assigning penalties and blame. Fortunately there is no right or wrong in this case, but since I was invited to the party by Daddyo's posts, I'm showing up.

Manhasset Bay along with other interior LI ports is and has been the port of refuge in these types (and there have been many along the mid-Atlantic) of storms for about 450 years. Anchoring safely when the winds are up in the protected waters of LI is no different than attempting to round Cape Caution when the winds are up and knowing the hidey holes on either side. It appears that Daddyo picked a good spot to anchor. Me, after anchoring would have gone to the high ground in Oyster Bay or Port Washington.
Sunchaser,
I never planned to go "Holywood" or anything of the type. In fact I have never even watched a single reality show. I don't Facebook or Twitter. My intentions were to share my situation initially for support and comradeship and then it occurred to me that others could learn from my experience no matter what the outcome. I consider your term "Holywood" to be highly offensive and inflammatory. To think that I would risk my family or myself for some kind of pathetic showmanship is outrageous. I did not invite Sandy into my home, she showed up. I dealt with her as best I knew to, using experience gained from facing other hurricanes, thousands of sea miles, many, many dozens of squalls. I never put my family nor myself at undue risk. Sometimes risk finds you and you mitigate/manage it to an acceptable level. Every time any of you get in your car you are taking on a real and demonstrable risk. How many died at sea in this storm vs land? Was land safer? The shore is littered with vessels left to fend for themselves. It's not black and white. Life happens in the grey
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:53 PM   #103
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Daddyo, You shouldnt waste your time explaining to some of the self-rightous onboard here. You will never persuade them and they will put you down to show that they are the smartest in the room. Most of these guys have more bluster than Sandy ever could...

I appreciate the info you have posted. Others do as well.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:06 PM   #104
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"Horsh*t.... for us small boaters"

for YOU maybe. I think Hemmingway would move to the next bar stool if you walked in with that shi**y attitude.

Daddyo, screw the idiots passing judgement. You know what they do not.
And I'm supposed to be impressed with Hemmingway? A sportfisher he was...a professional mariner he wasn't.

All I meant is that a skippers responsibility at dock is no less than at sea and deciding when to go or when to stay is no less great than when already out there...as many who have dies at sea can attest.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:54 PM   #105
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Hemmingway took a measure of a man. Period.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:26 PM   #106
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But what would have happened to Daddyo and his family if they had been on one of those boats?
Probably the same thing if they'd been in a building on shore that was collapsed in the storm, caught fire, etc.

You can second guess this thing from now to eternity but that won't change the outcome, which was that Daddyo made a decision that resulted in the preservation of his family and his boat. What you and I think of this decision, or if we feel a different course of action would have been more prudent is irrelevant. Daddyo got the desired outcome, so from his perspective it was a good decision.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:47 PM   #107
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Marin.... You should realize better than anyone the printed word is subject to introspection and comment by others. Some of us have dealt with negative outcomes, hearings and assigning penalties and blame. Fortunately there is no right or wrong in this case, but since I was invited to the party by Daddyo's posts, I'm showing up.
Absolutely. I've no issue at all with people expressing their opinions on Daddyo's decision and actions. If one says in a public forum "This is what I did," regardless if the "what I did" is varnish a stick or ride out a hurricane, other people are going to comment on it. And maybe if we're lucky we'll learn a thing or two from some of the comments.

My opinion is that Daddyo made a good decision and got a good result. Was it the only good decision possible under the circumstances? Probably not. But from his explanation it sounds to me as though he thought through the situation, considered the consequences of the various options, sought out local advice, used his previous and I assume considerable experience, and put it all together to come up with Plan A. Which worked.

I have not gotten the impression that his decision was a rash one, or a knee-jerk one, or one made under the pressure of panic, or one hobbled by ignorance or inexperience. So I think he did the right thing in a situation where I believe the end justifies the means.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:18 PM   #108
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Daddyo: At the risk of sounding incontemplative about the whole matter, it looks as if you've provided an opportunity for us all to be discuss how we might handle a similar situation, which few of us are likely to face. I greatly appreciate the chance to think about it now instead of when there is only time to act. The info on anchoring, scope, positioning, type of bottom and other considerations are invaluable performance results instead of paper calculations. Sincere congrats and thanks for sharing you reasoning process. I'm glad you all came through safely.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:04 AM   #109
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Probably the same thing if they'd been in a building on shore that was collapsed in the storm, caught fire, etc.
Closer to the facts or possible (all too often probable) scenario is what might happen to the trusting passenger in a small aircraft who thinks his pilot has the judgement and skill to safely fly under a bridge.

Just because the outcome was not a disaster does not make the act safe, sensible or even rational.

A question that was asked but never answered is - did remaining on boat that boat during the hurricane that tossed many other boats ashore prevent its loss? Did an act of the "captain" or "crew" save the boat during the storm or were they indeed, simply along for the ride and beyond any reasonable degree of control?

Was it prudent, ethical, or rational to expect the crew and rescue personnel to share the risk of death in order to "save" a low value and insured recreational toy? Consider the ethics of calling rescue personnel away from a "real" accident such as someone trapped in rising waters by a fallen tree or any of the other scenarios that posters here wrote might have befallen those ashore.

The tripe posted here about seamanship is eerily akin to that coming from the tall ships bunch who honestly believe the Bounty captain was a hero ... he killed one innocent and trusting passenger and only the skills and courage of CG SAR crews saved the rest. If he lived he should go to prison, not a pedestal, the same applies to this situation.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:27 AM   #110
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I'll offer one scenario for riding out a Cat 1 or 2 hurricane.

For years I searched for hurricane holes and have studied the reports and models of hurricane damage and storm surges....

What I decided was to put at least 15 foot of terrain and at least 10 miles of trees/buildings between me and the coast. The terrain would resist the wind driven storm surge and wave damage, the 10 miles of trees/buildings would knock down the winds.

Another big requirement is that the hurricane hole will be small enough and protected from the wind enough and close by shallow water that if something totally unexpected happens you can get off and wade to safety.

It would also have to be close enough to reach in one day at 6-7 knots and have enough survivable infrastructure around it to provide support during/after the storm.

I knew of a very secure city owned bulkhead in a stretch of river with my requirements. Saturday when my 50 hour decision making limit arrived, my skin was crawling about this storm. I have stayed put and been missed by many through the years so my plan is to never react till I'm worried and then have a decent plan.

I left Saturday afternoon and headed to my hurricane hole. Not a sole was there as hurricanes are so foreign to most people in the Jersey area, everyone thinks pull your boat and hope for the best.

The storm turned west and wound up further north than many were betting and now I was directly in the path of the eye. As it turned out, until the eye passed at around 2000, there was barely a ripple in the river as the trees blocked the wind. When the wind swung to the south (the ONLY bad direction where I picked because of the direction of the river)....it came with a vengeance but still only caused 6 inch wavelets but pinned us firmly to the bulkhead with 60 knot gusts.

The tidal surge broke all records and almost floated us over the pilings, only had inches to spare...but even then it was a confined area and at any time my girl and I could have stepped off and waded through knee deep, calm water to the town.

So the dangers were minimized and we had a nice shakedown for our trip south next month. Would I do it again??? Absolutely. What would I do differently? I would be further down the bulkhead to be better protected from the wind and I would possibly med-moor to prevent an even higher tide from taking us over the bulkhead.

At the marina I normally live at was flooded to 6 inches inside the buildings, lost pilings and a finger peir, no power and 4- 30-40 foot boats floated off blocks in the lot....another 3-6 inches of water or 30 degrees of easterly wind and almost ALL the boats would have floated free.

Good decision? I don't know for sure...but the calculated good odds greatly outweighed the bad ones and the boat and occupants survived without a scratch. I could have pulled and left my boat but as a liveaboard...I just felt uncomfortable about leaving it and at no time was I in any more danger than the other 20 million people within 100 miles.

For those that are interested seeing it...
Google Earth 39 26.97N 74 43.45W
Mays Landing, NJ
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:06 AM   #111
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So Daddyo You have been praised and chastised for your actions during the storm.
There will always be naysayers in events like this.

I once caught a burglar in a business I owned and it came to blows between me and the perpetrator. I Won.
The news paper and TV called me a Rambo. They said what if he had a gun. I say he was lucky I didn't.

There was a big forest fire here in Alaska a few years ago. One of the Iditarod musher's was ordered to evacuate. With his dog lot of 40 or so dogs it just wasn't feasible to do so.
He stayed and fought the fire with what ever means at his disposal. He won. Once again was chastised for his actions.
They said I should never take the law into your own hands.

Not the point with you.
But sometimes a man just has to do what he feels is right.

If I were in your shoes I would have done as you.
Don't let any of these bleeding hearts get you down.

To many people would rather turn the other cheek or call the cops rather than stand and fight.

I for one applaud you.

Sd
SD, I don't think you're going to get any praise here. I think most people will call the cops rather than stand and fight a burglar. It's just not worth it to most. Of course if that burglar had an affair with your wife, that would be another story. Heck, if Daddyo rode out the storm without his family, I would consider what you did to be more reckless.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:16 AM   #112
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Psneeld, that is a great story. Thanks for sharing. How many fenders and lines did you you use? Would fender boards helped or hurt in your situation?
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:25 AM   #113
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Was it prudent, ethical, or rational to expect the crew and rescue personnel to share the risk of death in order to "save" a low value and insured recreational toy?
You say "WAS" as if it played out like that. Closer to the fact is rescue personnel WERE NOT called upon.

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The tripe posted here about seamanship...
You're just being disrespectful now.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:38 AM   #114
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OK, let's put some logic into play here:

There was a severe storm. Daddyo and his family stayed aboard his boat and lived while several people on land were killed by the storm.

From these facts, we can deduce that during a severe storm, the safest place to be is on a boat.

Right?
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:42 AM   #115
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You're just being disrespectful now.
Respect is earned. Foolishly risking your own and other's lives is not worthy of respect, it should be ridiculed, not praised.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:47 AM   #116
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Closer to the facts or possible (all too often probable) scenario is what might happen to the trusting passenger in a small aircraft who thinks his pilot has the judgement and skill to safely fly under a bridge.

Just because the outcome was not a disaster does not make the act safe, sensible or even rational.

A question that was asked but never answered is - did remaining on boat that boat during the hurricane that tossed many other boats ashore prevent its loss? Did an act of the "captain" or "crew" save the boat during the storm or were they indeed, simply along for the ride and beyond any reasonable degree of control?

Was it prudent, ethical, or rational to expect the crew and rescue personnel to share the risk of death in order to "save" a low value and insured recreational toy? Consider the ethics of calling rescue personnel away from a "real" accident such as someone trapped in rising waters by a fallen tree or any of the other scenarios that posters here wrote might have befallen those ashore.

The tripe posted here about seamanship is eerily akin to that coming from the tall ships bunch who honestly believe the Bounty captain was a hero ... he killed one innocent and trusting passenger and only the skills and courage of CG SAR crews saved the rest. If he lived he should go to prison, not a pedestal, the same applies to this situation.
Rick,
To answer a few of your points:
No as it turned out my presence was not needed thankfully, as I did not end up needing to make any adjustments. I was there to monitor the situation and act if needed ie: start the engines to prevent dragging, drive the boat to better protection if wind direction forecasts proved wrong, drive the boat to protection should the ground tackle fail, mop up any water intrusion, adjust or replace chafe protection.

I never put responders at risk as the lee shore was only a couple of hundred yards away. Our vessel is taller then the water was deep. Our dingy is an unsinkable Boston Whaler. If we were to drift or break free the shore behind us would allowed us to walk off the boat.

Our vessel is not a "low value recreational toy" it is our home as we are living aboard this year. The time lost being able to cruise with the kids would not have been replaceable with insurance money.

"If he lived he should go to prison, not a pedestal, the same applies to this situation" are you out of your freaking mind??!! I should go to prison? I committed a crime? I used to enjoy your albeit heated post in the past but you sir do not have a place in the world of rational debate. I feel sorry for you unless of course you somehow miss-typed?
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:58 AM   #117
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I should go to prison?
Read carefully ... if you had killed a "crewmember" I think you should have been charged with criminal negligence or manslaughter and faced jail time. It was an unnecessary and pointless act and exposing others to that kind of risk was phenomenally irresponsible.

You got lucky ... plain and simple. Your "crew" probably doesn't have a clue how fortunate they are and that fortune has nothing to do with "seamanship."

You and others may not like what I say about this but you are going to have to work a lot harder to make a case for such an absurd risk. You weren't saving lives, carrying the cure for a smallpox epidemic or anything else ... your vacation plans are hardly a reason to put others at risk.

I stand by my comments. Tell your story to the CG or any other maritime safety organization and see what they have to say if my comments are too offensive to you. I hope someone else benefits though.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #118
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In July 2012, I met Emily. Who's Emily? She is a 4’ xx” Belgium citizen, 73 years old lady sailing around the globe alone in a thirty years old 26' wooden sail boat. That's right! 26 feet.
She has been doing this since her husband died in Martinique 25 years ago. She has lots of stories to tell, including surviving earthquakes and the Far East Tsunami few years ago. She has already been rescued 3 times due to mast/sails problems. Yet, she always managed to get her boat repaired and ready to go.

What this story has to do with Daddy? Well, this is just to illustrate how people can be different. 99% of us, big captains full of opinions based rarely on experience and mostly in readings, would never live on a 30 years old 26’ wooden sailboat for many reasons that are irrelevant at this point. Going around the Globe continuously would not even be considered. By the way, most of us in this forum are weekend sailors or summer ones who rarely leave the piers to go somewhere with a boat.

Daddy’s decision, if not supported by wisdom or common sense, according to some of us, was based on strong knowledge of his own boat and other factors like the environment, conditions of the moor, geographical position, and etc.

He made a decision that proved to be the right one. We don’t need to say anything else. He had already enough aggravation and all we have to do is to learn about what he did. That will give us enough baggage to allow us to make our own decisions if/when we need to.

Who in the eyes of God are we to use this forum to address criticism to somebody who has just gone thru such an ordeal of gigantic dimensions?

A bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks who in face of disgrace would run away from a fight? God Bless America!
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:15 AM   #119
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Rick,
You seem to be completely disregarding everything I have said about our particular situation. This isn't a vacation it is life. I have talked with the police here as well as the CG during the event and no one has criticized my actions. In fact the local police somewhat rolled out the red carpet for us on our return to the town docks. They barricaded the docks from public use but welcomed our presence. I did not take our boat out to the open sea hundreds of miles from shore in monster waves. Apples and oranges. We were not "lucky" we were well prepared and very fortunate to not have to execute any of our back up plans. None of our scenarios involved loss of life or serious injury as a demonstrable possibility. You are over the top and out of line.
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:15 AM   #120
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... it should be ridiculed, not praised.
I've only been here a short time, but I can see that is your place on this forum.
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