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Old 11-01-2012, 12:39 PM   #81
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Hyperbole. If he and his crew were lost, we'd be having a different discussion. In the one we ARE having. He seems to have made the right choice.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:57 PM   #82
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Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, there's no risk to it, and we all do it. But a real situation can only be judged and decided about by the people involved in it and their decisions will be based on factors some of which we have no idea about.

An entire neighborhood in Queens burned to the ground. People were killed or injured by falling trees and flying debris. Being on shore could be every bit as life-threatening as being on a boat. It all depends on the who, what, where, when, how, and why.

People are usually at their best in situations in which they have the most confidence in themselves, their equipment, and their environment. Daddyo's decision may have been the best one for him. The same decision with the same boat in the same location under the same circumstances may not have been the best one for someone else.

Whatever the reasons for Daddyo's decision, and no matter how logical or convincing an argument could be made by someone else about what THEY would have done, I think the only thing that's relevant here is that Daddyo and his family made a decision to take a particular course of action in the face of the storm and their decision and actions proved to be the right ones for them. Their boat's in one piece and on top of the water and they are all in one piece and uninjured on top of the boat. How that outcome could be improved upon is beyond me.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:21 PM   #83
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Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, there's no risk to it, and we all do it. But a real situation can only be judged and decided about by the people involved in it and their decisions will be based on factors some of which we have no idea about.

An entire neighborhood in Queens burned to the ground. People were killed or injured by falling trees and flying debris. Being on shore could be every bit as life-threatening as being on a boat. It all depends on the who, what, where, how, and why.

People are usually at their best in situations in which they have the most confidence in themselves, their equipment, and their environment. Daddyo's decision may have been the best one for him. The same decision with the same boat in the same location under the same circumstances may not have been the best one for someone else.

Whatever the reasons for Daddyo's decision, and no matter how logical or convincing an argument could be made by someone else about what THEY would have done, I think the only thing that's relevant here is that Daddyo and his family made a decision to take a particular course of action in the face of the storm and their decision and actions proved to be the right one for them. Their boat's in one piece and on top of the water and they are all in one piece and uninjured on top of the boat. How that outcome could be improved upon is beyond me.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:06 PM   #84
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I think many if not all of the points brought up here are good ones. I'll try to shed some more light on our course of action. I had described our chain as "inadequate " but that was not entirely accurate. The chain is nearing the end of it's life and needs replacing soon as a matter of preventive maintenance, and when I do so then I will go a bit bigger as with ground tackle bigger is always better if the extra weight forward is not a factor. With regards to our decision to ride this one out as some here have said it was arrived at due to our very specific circumstances. The forecast winds for Sandy were substantially less then I and Grace had endured just last fall when I had gone solo on the hook against Irene with no problem. I knew my tackle would hold and knew the boats behavior in these conditions. Last fall I had no choice as she wasn't insured at the time. This year the interruption to our lives as liveaboards if she was damaged due to leaving her unattended was a factor in the decision to stay aboard. We also felt the level of danger was very, very, very unlikely to ever reach life threatening as shore was always reachable in our Boston Whaler. We knew the dangers on shore could include serious injury or worse. By the time we got her settled in and the wind direction settled into it's final pattern it was too late to leave without undue risk. I chose this location by first selecting a few spots on the charts. I then spoke with some locals to get their opinions and then the day before moving to the location I took the boat and 1st mate and we looked at and sounded three areas we had chosen. This location was chosen based on water depths and composition and the match with our tackle. Swing room and likelihood of other boats not being nearby and most importantly not upwind from me, and last but not least was the elevation of the upwind landmass at the direction of the highest wind period were all critical in choosing this location. This was not the right decision for everyone or even me if just a few or possibly any of these factors were changed. You must have a fact based confidence in your situation before choosing the course of action that best suits you.

Now we are on unlimited hold as we wait for the East River and NY Harbor to be reopened by the USCG. I just put the family accept for one in a rental car and back to Raleigh for the Thanksgiving holiday period as I move the boat south before rejoining them.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:56 PM   #85
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Well done and you've certainly got a much dearer connection to your boat and her capabilities now. As we say in the Navy: "Fight the Ship!" and you did that and came out on the other side just fine. Kudos.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:21 PM   #86
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The true measure of success is that you attain the outcome desired and planned for. Daddyo "Captain" and/or any one of his family could have been hurt or killed by falling trees, windswept debris, maybe loose high tension wires or a number of other hazard items on shore. Bottom line on any seagoing craft is that The Captain has unrivaled right to make decisions and then clearly articulate his decisions to his crew. In this case Daddyo “Captain” made his carefully thought through decision, bet his hand, and won BIG Time! – Period!! Congratulations on your success! End of discussion.

Now, tell us more about your great adventure... Please
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:25 PM   #87
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Daddyo, I spent many years making my hurricane plans at home port (Biloxi) and I believe i've fine tuned it. I applaud you for thinking on the fly and making something happen in a strange port of call and being successful. That is the sign of good seamanship. I know this sounds stupid but when you have time to reflect on what you did maybe you could start a new thread and educate the rest of us. Did you have the main engines running to take some strain off of your ground tackle? What was the plan if the front windows blew out.( I think I would have boarded them) I would like to pick your brain. Paul
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:51 PM   #88
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Daddyo

Congrats on a safe outcome. You are a Captain!
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:20 PM   #89
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So Daddyo You have been praised and chastised for your actions during the storm.
There will always be naysayers in events like this.

I once caught a burglar in a business I owned and it came to blows between me and the perpetrator. I Won.
The news paper and TV called me a Rambo. They said what if he had a gun. I say he was lucky I didn't.

There was a big forest fire here in Alaska a few years ago. One of the Iditarod musher's was ordered to evacuate. With his dog lot of 40 or so dogs it just wasn't feasible to do so.
He stayed and fought the fire with what ever means at his disposal. He won. Once again was chastised for his actions.
They said I should never take the law into your own hands.

Not the point with you.
But sometimes a man just has to do what he feels is right.

If I were in your shoes I would have done as you.
Don't let any of these bleeding hearts get you down.

To many people would rather turn the other cheek or call the cops rather than stand and fight.

I for one applaud you.

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Old 11-02-2012, 02:39 PM   #90
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The exact same thing could be said about the Skipper of the Bounty. And yet, it's not...
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:06 PM   #91
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The exact same thing could be said about the Skipper of the Bounty. And yet, it's not...
That said: The measurable difference between a Captain that risks and wins and one that risks and loses is as night and day. Also, to determine the Captain's validity and right-mindedness regarding any risk the conditions and actions taken during the risk need to be carefully dissected and weighed after the fact - no matter the outcome!

Additionally, and very importantly, in reverse to what you say above: Daddyo was purposefully taking many precautions to best protect the safety of his craft and crew... acting as a mature and knowledgeable ship's Master. Whereas Bounty Captain was not taking safety precautions, but rather he was purposefully tempting the fate of his craft and crew... he was acting as an immature ship's Master (a wild cowboy - so to say)! Therefore no matter which of the two captains were to win or lose in the outcomes that unfolded... the weight of correct actions goes to Daddyo Captain - NOT Bounty Captain!
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:23 PM   #92
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My question earlier was why Daddyo stated his rode as inadequate and anchored out with family anyway. He answered that by saying he mispoke. But not knowing Daddyo's options, such as staying or retreating well north until the storm passed, it seems the bigger question is why he and family stayed aboard.

I have a bunch of friends who moor their boats in Manhasset Bay who were quite happy to let their boats float it out (the boats did fine) while the owners and their families stayed on higher ground (they did fine too).


Dude, to compare this well publicized in advance anchoring event to fighting off a burglar is a bit odd. Unless you invited the burglar into your place to get praise and adoration after you subdued him.

As Felix the balloon jumper said 3 weeks ago, "I'll never do that again!" Some learn, some don't. We joke about Darwin Award happenings, hard to say if Daddyo's fits in since it all worked OK.
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:44 PM   #93
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The comparison was that sometimes you have to tale things in your own hands and do what you think is right.

This particular fellow had hit my place before. I laid in wait for him.

I didn't receive praise. More ridicule for protecting me and mine.

Like the old saying. Some times you have to take the bull by the horns.

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:52 PM   #94
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The measure of a Captain, isn't when the ship is docked or in harbor. (To paraphrase the famous quote).
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:11 PM   #95
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Over the past couple of decades I have watched our "rescue, our fire services, our police services " etc etc working more and more under "work safe" mandates. These wonderfull folk that took on this work now no longer make the call. It is now done by mangement, insurance companies, and goverment.

Over this time the hard working, honest , average , folk just dont seem to get a break. F'd if you do Fd if you dont.

I can still see the images from Katrina. Evacuate to the dome. Then these average folk are HELD like prisoners while the rest of the world moves to the new news story. Sorry but that real. What is real is folk trying to survive an event like this and struggle along with rifles pointed at em !

I am sposed to believe these guys have my back ? Realy

Insurance ? realy how is that working out for us regular folk? Sure I buy insurance and realy have no problem to date. But am I going to simply walk from my home to a percieved saftey zone with the thought I will be made whole again if I loose everything ?

After 911 it was declared an act of war. Bam no insurance for me and ya cool I was not in new york and did not suffer from that attack directly.

But no insurance pay out for me , no bail out for me , I just get to hold the bag full of shit and carry on. Totaly accountable , personaly , for all the taxes, all the transport cost, all my employee holiday pay, tax remitance , rent , insurance bills incured by my company. Prior, though, and after! Everything I had in the air on that Tuesday Morning was lost. Zero biz for weeks following but the bills they just keep rolling along. Great I get to start my bussiness all over again.

Nice to know there be a bunch of folk living in a perfect world that when stuff goes south they get made whole.

For us average guys that is not the end fact.

I will manage my risk best I see fit. If I need help!, it be nice if Goverment funded "rescue" helped. But I sure cant count on that based on what I am seeing. Even when I am paying the f'n bills for these goverment services.

Then add insult into injury now there be folk that suggest jail terms ? fines ? court action after such an event when some one makes a mistake.

Wow

Nice group !
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:13 PM   #96
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We joke about Darwin Award happenings, hard to say if Daddyo's fits in since it all worked OK.
Problem is, Tom, that you can sort of say that about anything. You decide when to step off the curb and cross the street. If you decide wrong, you could get run over. If you decide right, you reach the other side. So it worked out. Just about every decision involving a risk--- try crossing a street in China)-- will work out or it won't.

And the amount of perceived risk will vary from person to person.

When we bought our GB and were very new to the boat and this kind of boating we made a decision to not go out if the winds were forecast to be 15 mph or higher. We felt that the water conditions in the bay and elsewhere and the potential docking challenges would exceed our limitations given our inexperience.

At the same time, our friend Carey and his wife, who have vastly more boating experience than we do, had no qualms about going out in winds 15 mph or stronger. I don't recall what he told me their no-go decision strength was but it was considerably higher than 15 mph.

So did the fact that our decision in those early days was to stay at the dock if the winds were 15 or higher mean their decision to go out in winds 15 or higher was wrong?

Of course not. So while I do what everyone else does and judge someone else's makes by its outcome, I also believe that my judgment has no bearing on the reality of the situation as perceived by the other person. Nor does it take into account--- because I have no way of knowing--- the other person's experience, character, and ability to deal with the reality of the situation.

So I don't go along with the comments in this thread that Daddyo did a dumb thing or the wrong thing or made a bad decision or unnecessarily put his family at risk. He made a decision based on the situation as he assessed it and it proved to be a good one.

Had he elected to go ashore and the building he and his family were sheltering in had burned to the ground or a family member was killed by flying debris or a falling tree or any one of the infinite number of bad things that can happen had happened, people would be accusing him of making a bad decision and putting his family in jeopardy and they should have stayed "someplace else."

The fact that other people left their boats and went ashore and their boats did fine is great for them but if you look at the photos people have posted here of boats sunk, piled on the shore, or "rafted" together in the parking lot of a marina it's obvious that what worked fine for some people didn't work fine for others. So who knows what would have happened to Daddyo's boat if he'd left it to its own devices? Might of done fine, might not of.

So what he did worked. Might not have been what other people on this forum would have done, but who cares? The only relevant thing here is that he made a decision, acted on it, and proved to be a right decision. There could have been other right decisions he could have made, too, but we'll never know. All that's important to him--- and if he's smart he won't give a hoot in hell about anyone else's armchair judgements-- is that he got the desired outcome from the decision that he made. He got to the other side of the street without being run over. And I think that's all that matters.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:27 PM   #97
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...................... but if you look at the photos people have posted here of boats sunk, piled on the shore, or "rafted" together in the parking lot of a marina it's obvious that what worked fine for some people didn't work fine for others. So who knows what would have happened to Daddyo's boat if he'd left it to its own devices? Might of done fine, might not of................
But what would have happened to Daddyo and his family if they had been on one of those boats?
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:55 PM   #98
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I've no quibble with Daddyo's outcome nor what you say. Daddyo chose to take his decision public and post his minute by minute swings, thus opening himself to kudos and criticisms. He could have stayed quiet and kept it less Hollywood, hardly popular in these Twitter and Facebook times.

You should realize better than anyone the printed word is subject to introspection and comment by others. Some of us have dealt with negative outcomes, hearings and assigning penalties and blame. Fortunately there is no right or wrong in this case, but since I was invited to the party by Daddyo's posts, I'm showing up.

Manhasset Bay along with other interior LI ports is and has been the port of refuge in these types (and there have been many along the mid-Atlantic) of storms for about 450 years. Anchoring safely when the winds are up in the protected waters of LI is no different than attempting to round Cape Caution when the winds are up and knowing the hidey holes on either side. It appears that Daddyo picked a good spot to anchor. Me, after anchoring would have gone to the high ground in Oyster Bay or Port Washington.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:57 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
The measure of a Captain, isn't when the ship is docked or in harbor. (To paraphrase the famous quote).
Horsh*t.... for us small boaters

The measure of a captain is often ....

1. Haul
2. Stay in a slip aboard
3. Stay in a slip but get off
4. Move to a hurricane hole and stay
5. Move to a hurricane hole and leave
6. Move and haul

often much harder decisions than a Navy/USCG skipper has to make
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:14 PM   #100
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I just want to say, Daddyo, I'm glad you and your family and your boat are safe! I was seriously worried about you and yours, and I'm glad you are okay.

We all have to make decisions on what we need to do from time to time, and regardless of our choice, someone will have an opinion. In the end the only important thing is that you made it through. Life is short...enjoy each day...live it to the fullest...and love your people.

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