HMS Bounty/ Hurricane Sandy

[Delfin]

every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?

No, that is rubbish. The fact that a Captain makes a decision does not mean that the decision is good one. In fact in this case, the decision made was about as stupid as it gets since he unnecessarily put the lives of his crew at risk. Eric and Margaret Hiscock spent 40 years sailing around the world a few times and reported that they never encountered winds greater than 35 knots. That was because Eric Hiscock, as Captain, didn't risk his vessel or his crew as this knucklehead did. When very high winds were likely, they stayed in port. That is called responsible seamanship. Chasing hurricanes in a leaking vessel with known defective bilge pumps isn't a decision of a Captain. It is the decision of a fool. I don't like speaking ill of the dead, and I commend the Captain for apparently ensuring that almost everyone whose lives were put at risk by his decision were saved. However, I don't think it serves anyone to pretend that this was anything other than a tragedy that could have been averted if any competent mariner other than this person was Captain of that vessel.

 

[markpierce]

My greatest fear is to die in the upstairs shower, covering the drain, and flooding/ruining my two-story, townhouse home. But then, water flowing out the front door will probably mean recovering my body before it rots.

 

[Marin]

However, I don't think it serves anyone to pretend that this was anything other than a tragedy that could have been averted if any competent mariner other than this person was Captain of that vessel.

I've had no experience with storms at sea so I cannot express any opinion with regards to the course decided upon, the validity of trying to skirt a storm like this, and so on

But what does surprise me is the decision to take that vessel out into what would most certainly be rough seas even if the main part of the storm was skirted.

The fishing schooners that worked the Grand, Georges, and other banks in the North Atlantic in the late 19th and early 20th centuries got caught out in storms fairly frequently. Some of the boats succumbed to them but most made it through. But these wooden vessels were were being used regularly for fishing and presumably being maintained to survive in the conditions they encountered.

A replica ship like the Bounty, while it may have been well made to start with, is not, I think, going to get the same sort of ongoing scrutiny that most of those fishing schooners or wooden naval vessels got. I don't know the financial situation of the Bounty but it seems most of these sorts of organizations are always strapped for money and as a result things get deferred.

If the captain had had a different vessel--- a Navy frigate, a modern cargo vessel, etc.--- the same decision might have made more sense if there was a really compelling reason to get where he was going.

But to take a wooden replica ship with a known history of generator and pump issues out into what were going to be rough conditions no matter what, that is the aspect of the decision I find the most fault with.

 

[RickB]

And yet... It WAS the right decision at the time for him, his ship, and his crew. What keeps being overlooked here is that it was a major equipment failure that caused this.

That is frighteningly wrong! The captain was criminally negligent in leaving a safe haven in the face of an historic storm. He made that decision the same way he made previous decisions to "chase hurricanes." It was in search of glory and fame in his little world of hero worshipping volunteer crews and TV interviews from which his own admissions will eventually paint him for what he was, a dangerous fool whose actions killed an innocent passenger.

The "major equipment failure" was his driving the ship into conditions it could not survive. Of course the generators and engines failed, of course the pumps could not keep up with the flooding ... the fool drove the ship into a storm so strong and for so long the hull failed. That 60 year old structure worked until it opened up and flooded.

If you drive your car into the side of a building don't blame your injuries on the bricks.

 

[Peter B]

My understanding, from an interview we had on our tv was the owner loved the boat, and it has been a labour of love to continually put a lot of money into restoring her, and was devastated she was lost. I can't imagine he would be seeking any insurance payout as someone unfortunately suggested, and I doubt it sailed on his order. I suspect he was influenced, perhaps even intimidated, by the captains confidence? I guess all will come out in the enquiry...

 

[psneeld]

I'll grant that I may not have stayed in Connecticut when decision making on thursday...but if memory serves me right...almost all of the tracks were starting to firm up toward the mouth of the Chesapeake (the favored model) back to the New York area.

Me...I think I would have headed towards the top side of Cape Cod/Boston area...and hoped that distance would help or get a glancing blow even if it veered more northeastward...certainly NOT directly into the hurricanes path.

 

[Blue Heron]

My experience in the Navy has been, move assets out of harms way. Aircraft fly away and ships sortie to the sea. The ones left behind are either unable to secure for sea or are unable to get underway. Subs, well they submerge. I have ridden a few monsters out and we always came back.

 

[charles]

Interview with Captain Walbridge of the Bounty | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

See this, particularly at the ten minute mark.
Interview with the captain this summer. It MAY lend some light to this discussion, or Monday morning quarterbacking that is going on, so to speak.

 

[Delfin]

A replica ship like the Bounty, while it may have been well made to start with, is not, I think, going to get the same sort of ongoing scrutiny that most of those fishing schooners or wooden naval vessels got. I don't know the financial situation of the Bounty but it seems most of these sorts of organizations are always strapped for money and as a result things get deferred.

If the captain had had a different vessel--- a Navy frigate, a modern cargo vessel, etc.--- the same decision might have made more sense if there was a really compelling reason to get where he was going.

But to take a wooden replica ship with a known history of generator and pump issues out into what were going to be rough conditions no matter what, that is the aspect of the decision I find the most fault with.

I'm not sure to what degree this vessel was a Potemkin village replica serving as a movie prop rather than having the scantlings of the original, which woule have been designed to withstand cannon ball fire. Further even if it was built as well the original compliment of crew needed to sail her would have been a whole lot greater and a whole lot more experienced than 14 male and female hippies.

 

[bfloyd4445]

I'm not sure to what degree this vessel was a Potemkin village replica serving as a movie prop rather than having the scantlings of the original, which woule have been designed to withstand cannon ball fire. Further even if it was built as well the original compliment of crew needed to sail her would have been a whole lot greater and a whole lot more experienced than 14 male and female hippies.

I've wondered about such a small crew on a square rigged vessel. I sluffed it off thinkjing that the ship was likelyt equiped with the latest technology so that it could properly be handled by a skeleton crew.

The inquiry will tell all. Isnbt it time we ler her rest in peace?

 

[Marin]

Having directed a film shoot with the Lady Washington I can tell you that it takes a BIG crew to sail one of these ships effectively.

 

[psneeld]

yes but a single handler or a couple can move a boat that takes 10 or so to race...you just have to have it rigged properly for short handing and be careful...and know the new limitations.

 

[bfloyd4445]

yes but a single handler or a couple can move a boat that takes 10 or so to race...you just have to have it rigged properly for short handing and be careful...and know the new limitations.

is it possible to rig a square rigger to be short handled???? This ship aint no race yatch u know

 

[Underway]

According to an interview with a survivor, she was under power (twin 375 John Deeres).

 

[bfloyd4445]

According to an interview with a survivor, she was under power (twin 375 John Deeres).

under powered is what he may have meant. according to the captain she was grossly under powered and he only liked to use the engines in harbours

if she was under power it may have been a last ditch attemp to save the ship

 

[psneeld]

is it possible to rig a square rigger to be short handled???? This ship aint no race yatch u know

yes... and I know....

 

[bfloyd4445]

yes... and I know....

sorry, didnt mean to be sarcastic

 

[jwnall]

This particular horse may have already been beaten enough, but the following quote from a story in the New York Times this morning is kind of interesting:

"Dan Moreland, the captain of another tall ship, the Picton Castle, told The Chronicle Herald of Nova Scotia that the approaching storm had persuaded him not to set sail. “It’s a huge system, and that made the decision very simple,” he said. Captain Moreland also said that while he knew Captain Walbridge to be an experienced seaman, he was shocked by his decision to sail. “Yes, I have to say yes, I can’t say anything else,” he said. “When I first heard the Bounty was out there, I thought, ‘You’ve got to be kidding.’ ”

John

 

[captrigney]

I posted this on another thread and many of you have probably seen this, but it seems fitting here:

 

[Jimbo]

In answer to the question ,"does the Navy send ships to sea during hurricanes?'' the answer is yes. I was stationed aboard the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Midway, CVA-41 in the fall of 1954 which at time was Navy's largest ship . I don't remember which hurricane it was, there were three that hit the east coast that fall, but we were in Norfolk at the time, and were sent out along with several distroyers. I was a 21year old white hat , and frankly it was exciting for me, but unfortunately it was tragic for others. According to the Midway's history, which I just read on the internet, the ship was nose heavy, and while plowing through a large wave, or swell the forward gun turret was ripped loose - I later heard that it went flying down the flight deck and off the fantail, part of the flight deck was rolled back, and two young officers whoes quarters were under the forward flight deck were killed. None of this was mentioned in the internet history, nor was the the loss of 18 men and twenty-eight aircraft that occured on the Med cruise that we had recently returned from. We buried two at sea.

 

[psneeld]

Anyone trying to compare going to sea in a Navy vessel compared to a small recreational vessel or even the Bounty is really trying to stretch it.

I see Rick's point that not everyone on a Navy ship has even the remotest of navigation, weather, ship handling or even command experience that many recreational and small commercial skippers have.... but they are serving as seaman in an honorable service...(even though not all of them are perfect...)

 

[Blue Heron]

I think my experience is apples to apples.

 

[markpierce]

I see Rick's point that not everyone on a Navy ship has even the remotest of navigation, weather, ship handling or even command experience that many recreational and small commercial skippers have.... but they are serving as seaman in an honorable service...(even though not all of them are perfect...)

On a TV show a sailor was interviewed and asked if he liked the Navy. He hated it. His job consisted mostly of cleaning urinals and toilets.

 

[psneeld]

On a TV show a sailor was interviewed and asked if he liked the Navy. He hated it. His job consisted mostly of cleaning urinals and toilets.

Sounds like my job on my boat...

at least I get to decide whether I replace the plastic on my mast stays...

 

[bfloyd4445]

hey you guys, anit nuttin to get upset about. I'm sure no disrespect was meant by anyone. The Bounty traggidy is close to all of our hearts because we all love the sea wether we be navy professionals, merchant marine, commercial fishermen or just weekend or retired pleasure boaters.
So stop the bickering or I'm gonna have belly up to the plate and put you both in your place!!! GRRRRR.......

 

[Blue Heron]

Psneeld, my last job in the navy was in charge of the AW school house and Aircrew Division. I flew many hours enlisted in helo's and ended up commissioned. So your son may yet become familiar with rules of the road. I wish him success as I know the path he is on. Don't be surprised if he makes it a profession.

 

[psneeld]

hey you guys, anit nuttin to get upset about. I'm sure no disrespect was meant by anyone. The Bounty traggidy is close to all of our hearts because we all love the sea wether we be navy professionals, merchant marine, commercial fishermen or just weekend or retired pleasure boaters.
So stop the bickering or I'm gonna have belly up to the plate and put you both in your place!!! GRRRRR.......

With that kinda talk...sounds like you should have been on the Bounty...matey...

 

[psneeld]

Psneeld, my last job in the navy was in charge of the AW school house and Aircrew Division. I flew many hours enlisted in helo's and ended up commissioned. So your son may yet become familiar with rules of the road. I wish him success as I know the path he is on. Don't be surprised if he makes it a profession.

Thanks...I'm not sure...but he is now 3rd generation helo crew....something I'm proud of.

 

[Blue Heron]

And with that, I will drink to you and his service. Cheers

 

[ARoss]

The captain is lost... the ship is lost....and so it will be up to the many lawyers, insurance companies, and others with financial interests in the Bounty to assign culpability. ... another tragedy of our legal system. Once the body is dead, the hyenas will fight over the carcass.