Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-02-2012, 04:57 PM   #81
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
You may be the last person standing who has no doubt ... it has become increasingly obvious he willingly exposed his ship and crew to their fate.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...ing-hurricanes
Pay particular attention to the statements made starting at 10:27 on the clip, and again at around 20:50
Not so. The captain knew exactly what he was doing and had full confidence in his ability to weather any storm.
I guess i am guilty of the same afliction as the Captain. He simply feels comfortable with the sea and liked to push the envelope for personnal satisfaction and this time he pushed it too far and paid for it with his life. God rest his soul
I tend to do this kinda thing but not with hurricanes or typhons, with toonies, river bars, jet boats, etc.
__________________
Advertisement

bfloyd4445 is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 05:18 PM   #82
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Not so. The captain knew exactly what he was doing and had full confidence in his ability to weather any storm.
I guess i am guilty of the same afliction as the Captain. He simply feels comfortable with the sea and liked to push the envelope for personnal satisfaction and this time he pushed it too far and paid for it with his life. God rest his soul
I tend to do this kinda thing but not with hurricanes or typhons, with toonies, river bars, jet boats, etc.
I counter bfloyd - If that Bounty Captain actually knew "exactly" what he was doing then he knew he was risking not just his life, but also the lives of his crew as well as the well-being of the boat itself. IMHO, no Captain has right to take that much liberty for their self aggrandizement in future years by taking uncalled for and unnecessary risks such as he took. He never should have ventured out into that massive and unpredictable storm. As a Captain he should have known better... Period!
__________________

Art is online now  
Old 11-02-2012, 05:30 PM   #83
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperdude View Post
Is there a court case after a rescue to determine if the person being rescued (At the peril of the rescuers.) is an idiot or just bad luck.
You always hear stories about rescues and wonder what the heck the idiot was doing in that situation in the first place.
I hope these people have to pay.

Sd
Not necessarily...most of the time...

Even when the rescuers died...if the SAR situation was enacted in good faith and no extreme negligence there might not even be a hearing if not a commercial vessel and definitely no bill.
psneeld is online now  
Old 11-02-2012, 05:31 PM   #84
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
I counter bfloyd - If that Bounty Captain actually knew "exactly" what he was doing then he knew he was risking not just his life, but also the lives of his crew as well as the well-being of the boat itself. IMHO, no Captain has right to take that much liberty for their self aggrandizement in future years by taking uncalled for and unnecessary risks such as he took. He never should have ventured out into that massive and unpredictable storm. As a Captain he should have known better... Period!
every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?
bfloyd4445 is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 06:03 PM   #85
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,363
Consequences of poor sailing decisions - witness the upcoming trial and possible manslaughter charges facing the Italian Captain.
sunchaser is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 06:16 PM   #86
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?
In most cases I would agree... but not in this one. Having listened closely to the Bounty Captain answer questions to an interviewer on a many minute video link (that was provided in a post on this thread) his words seemed to overstep a Captain's true need for total consideration on all persons and items concerned in Bounty situations prior to storm Sandy. And, who in their right mind as Captain, feels the safest measure is to take a 1960 wooden craft, designed in technology mode from centuries past, into open ocean waters wherein a storm the size of Sandy was approaching. I simply believe this Captain was a bit too high on his own worth/capabilities and too low on consideration for others. We all make mistakes and it is the prerogative of a Captain to take his best shot... but consideration for others is of paramount importance because the Captain is responsible for their lives too. I believe the Bounty Captain simply overstepped his bounds!
Art is online now  
Old 11-02-2012, 06:42 PM   #87
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?
Are you shi**ing me????

I have been either pilot or captain in command for over 30 years...maybe 1 in 100,000 decisions might have put a pax or crew in danger beyond scratches or being cold and wet for awhile.

I just road out Hurricane Sandy....the eye passed right over my hurricane hole that I was the ONLY ONE IN....the biggest wave I saw was 6 inches and the trees knocked the winds down below 60 for the whole ride. So while making decisions in command is part of the responsibility...making the right ones is the biggest part.

Going to sea and sailing at this storm in the Bounty cannot be seen as a good decision...the results prove it.
psneeld is online now  
Old 11-02-2012, 08:18 PM   #88
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Going to sea and sailing at this storm in the Bounty cannot be seen as a good decision...the results prove it.
And yet... It WAS the right decision at the time for him, his ship, and his crew. What keeps being overlooked here is that it was a major equipment failure that caused this. He and his ship had been is much larger and more powerful storms. Moreover, he was already beyond the SW edge of the storm when he had the failure.

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but we have to respect his decision because we will all have to make them eventually. Sometime they are right, sometimes not, but the armchair quarterbacking here is not helping anything.

Tom-
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 09:48 PM   #89
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoF1 View Post
And yet... It WAS the right decision at the time for him, his ship, and his crew. What keeps being overlooked here is that it was a major equipment failure that caused this. He and his ship had been is much larger and more powerful storms. Moreover, he was already beyond the SW edge of the storm when he had the failure.

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but we have to respect his decision because we will all have to make them eventually. Sometime they are right, sometimes not, but the armchair quarterbacking here is not helping anything.

Tom-
Tom, well said. I guess u said what i have said in diferent words but your words do a better job
I wish i knew more of the Bounty's last moments in order to answer the questions we all have.

That said. This could happen to any mariner, even a rowboat captain as myself. I just pray that it will never happen to another each night.

God bless
bfloyd4445 is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 10:03 PM   #90
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Tom, well said. I guess u said what i have said in diferent words but your words do a better job
I wish i knew more of the Bounty's last moments in order to answer the questions we all have.

That said. This could happen to any mariner, even a rowboat captain as myself. I just pray that it will never happen to another each night.

God bless
----------------------------------------

Well. . . . . .with enough evidence and witnesses, I think we will all get what we are looking for eventually. That should at least answer the question once and for all??

Rear Adm. Steven Ratti, USCG, said Friday. An investigating officer will receive evidence and testimony using formal rules and procedures.

The investigation will consider whether any failure of equipment or personnel contributed to the crew member's death. It will also determine if further investigation is needed. The investigation is expected to take several months.

LB
Edelweiss is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:45 AM   #91
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
every decision any captain makes can cost the lives of crew passengers or ship. Thats the nature of the job. On your vessel, if your the catain all your decisions at sea have the potential to be live threatening.
Sorry captain you cannot pass the buck, the buck stops in the Captains lap...period...
and i'm sure, any decision you or the Bounty's captain would make would be what he you thinks is the best course of action under current conditions to take.

Do you not agree?
No, that is rubbish. The fact that a Captain makes a decision does not mean that the decision is good one. In fact in this case, the decision made was about as stupid as it gets since he unnecessarily put the lives of his crew at risk. Eric and Margaret Hiscock spent 40 years sailing around the world a few times and reported that they never encountered winds greater than 35 knots. That was because Eric Hiscock, as Captain, didn't risk his vessel or his crew as this knucklehead did. When very high winds were likely, they stayed in port. That is called responsible seamanship. Chasing hurricanes in a leaking vessel with known defective bilge pumps isn't a decision of a Captain. It is the decision of a fool. I don't like speaking ill of the dead, and I commend the Captain for apparently ensuring that almost everyone whose lives were put at risk by his decision were saved. However, I don't think it serves anyone to pretend that this was anything other than a tragedy that could have been averted if any competent mariner other than this person was Captain of that vessel.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 01:07 AM   #92
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
My greatest fear is to die in the upstairs shower, covering the drain, and flooding/ruining my two-story, townhouse home. But then, water flowing out the front door will probably mean recovering my body before it rots.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 01:43 AM   #93
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
However, I don't think it serves anyone to pretend that this was anything other than a tragedy that could have been averted if any competent mariner other than this person was Captain of that vessel.
I've had no experience with storms at sea so I cannot express any opinion with regards to the course decided upon, the validity of trying to skirt a storm like this, and so on

But what does surprise me is the decision to take that vessel out into what would most certainly be rough seas even if the main part of the storm was skirted.

The fishing schooners that worked the Grand, Georges, and other banks in the North Atlantic in the late 19th and early 20th centuries got caught out in storms fairly frequently. Some of the boats succumbed to them but most made it through. But these wooden vessels were were being used regularly for fishing and presumably being maintained to survive in the conditions they encountered.

A replica ship like the Bounty, while it may have been well made to start with, is not, I think, going to get the same sort of ongoing scrutiny that most of those fishing schooners or wooden naval vessels got. I don't know the financial situation of the Bounty but it seems most of these sorts of organizations are always strapped for money and as a result things get deferred.

If the captain had had a different vessel--- a Navy frigate, a modern cargo vessel, etc.--- the same decision might have made more sense if there was a really compelling reason to get where he was going.

But to take a wooden replica ship with a known history of generator and pump issues out into what were going to be rough conditions no matter what, that is the aspect of the decision I find the most fault with.
Marin is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 07:13 AM   #94
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoF1 View Post
And yet... It WAS the right decision at the time for him, his ship, and his crew. What keeps being overlooked here is that it was a major equipment failure that caused this.
That is frighteningly wrong! The captain was criminally negligent in leaving a safe haven in the face of an historic storm. He made that decision the same way he made previous decisions to "chase hurricanes." It was in search of glory and fame in his little world of hero worshipping volunteer crews and TV interviews from which his own admissions will eventually paint him for what he was, a dangerous fool whose actions killed an innocent passenger.

The "major equipment failure" was his driving the ship into conditions it could not survive. Of course the generators and engines failed, of course the pumps could not keep up with the flooding ... the fool drove the ship into a storm so strong and for so long the hull failed. That 60 year old structure worked until it opened up and flooded.

If you drive your car into the side of a building don't blame your injuries on the bricks.
RickB is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 07:59 AM   #95
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
My understanding, from an interview we had on our tv was the owner loved the boat, and it has been a labour of love to continually put a lot of money into restoring her, and was devastated she was lost. I can't imagine he would be seeking any insurance payout as someone unfortunately suggested, and I doubt it sailed on his order. I suspect he was influenced, perhaps even intimidated, by the captains confidence? I guess all will come out in the enquiry...
Peter B is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 08:59 AM   #96
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
I'll grant that I may not have stayed in Connecticut when decision making on thursday...but if memory serves me right...almost all of the tracks were starting to firm up toward the mouth of the Chesapeake (the favored model) back to the New York area.

Me...I think I would have headed towards the top side of Cape Cod/Boston area...and hoped that distance would help or get a glancing blow even if it veered more northeastward...certainly NOT directly into the hurricanes path.
psneeld is online now  
Old 11-03-2012, 09:21 AM   #97
Guru
 
City: Pensacola
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 748
My experience in the Navy has been, move assets out of harms way. Aircraft fly away and ships sortie to the sea. The ones left behind are either unable to secure for sea or are unable to get underway. Subs, well they submerge. I have ridden a few monsters out and we always came back.
Blue Heron is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:11 AM   #98
Senior Member
 
charles's Avatar
 
City: patterson
Country: usa
Vessel Model: CHB 45 Pilot House
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 158
Interview with Captain Walbridge of the Bounty | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

See this, particularly at the ten minute mark.
Interview with the captain this summer. It MAY lend some light to this discussion, or Monday morning quarterbacking that is going on, so to speak.
__________________
Charles C Culotta, Jr
Patterson, La.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
charles is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:22 AM   #99
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post

A replica ship like the Bounty, while it may have been well made to start with, is not, I think, going to get the same sort of ongoing scrutiny that most of those fishing schooners or wooden naval vessels got. I don't know the financial situation of the Bounty but it seems most of these sorts of organizations are always strapped for money and as a result things get deferred.

If the captain had had a different vessel--- a Navy frigate, a modern cargo vessel, etc.--- the same decision might have made more sense if there was a really compelling reason to get where he was going.

But to take a wooden replica ship with a known history of generator and pump issues out into what were going to be rough conditions no matter what, that is the aspect of the decision I find the most fault with.
I'm not sure to what degree this vessel was a Potemkin village replica serving as a movie prop rather than having the scantlings of the original, which woule have been designed to withstand cannon ball fire. Further even if it was built as well the original compliment of crew needed to sail her would have been a whole lot greater and a whole lot more experienced than 14 male and female hippies.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline  
Old 11-03-2012, 02:09 PM   #100
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I'm not sure to what degree this vessel was a Potemkin village replica serving as a movie prop rather than having the scantlings of the original, which woule have been designed to withstand cannon ball fire. Further even if it was built as well the original compliment of crew needed to sail her would have been a whole lot greater and a whole lot more experienced than 14 male and female hippies.
I've wondered about such a small crew on a square rigged vessel. I sluffed it off thinkjing that the ship was likelyt equiped with the latest technology so that it could properly be handled by a skeleton crew.

The inquiry will tell all. Isnbt it time we ler her rest in peace?
__________________

bfloyd4445 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012