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Old 07-28-2011, 09:56 PM   #1
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Work in progress. 65' lugger reworked after a fire

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum and new to the big boat life...I've bought a 65' Lugger and am in the process of rebuilding every system on it since a fire gutted her last year. *I've got twin 6-71's and twin 12kw onan gensets which I am proud to announce this week I got all 4 engines running and one generator producing 220volts at 50 amps. *HUGE success. *I've had two of the four 250 gallon fuel tanks fabed and in place and a 1000 gallon water tank which needs to be cleaned. *Now to my question. *What are the best systems in your vessle and what would you do if you could do it all from scratch? *I am open to any ideas from solar to sewage treatement plants to propane. *I need to expand my brain a little and do the rebuild once. *Thanks in advance.


-- Edited by swampu on Saturday 19th of November 2011 09:40:00 PM
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:17 AM   #2
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Besides an engine I can count on , a DD 6-71 natural,

the two "best" cruising units are the hydraulic system , steering is easy , autopilot is easy , and the windlass will lift even our storm anchor an 80KG unit.White smoke does not come out if overloaded , it simply stops and refuses to work till I bump up the engine RPM.

As we are no dock cruisers , the propane reefer is the other delight. Ice cream for 3 weeks on a single 20# bottle (includes range and oven) allows unlimited days between engine runs , a 75W solar takes care of our minor DC needs and the batt sets daily internal losses.

Extended living at anchor is a breeze, and SILENT!
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:29 AM   #3
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

David I've got the Nordhavn site bookmarked and have been looking over every detail of that beauty. I will look up the Krogen and Selene brands thanks.

FF, You have to love the 6-71 naturals. I have two of them and they were in the middle of an engine room fire and still work like a charm. I've gotten quotes on an electric/hydraulic system for steering and autopilot but the materials alone were about $6,500 plus the install. I opted to keep the mechanical steering I have (two gear boxes which turn a long series of rods on pillow blocks) I looked into adding some solar cells to run the fridge and charge batteries all day and then run as long as possible on the batteries. It gets hot here in South Mississippi and I have a 3 ton ac unit on the roof so the generator will be standard issue in the summer swelter but it's beautiful the rest of the year. Does your solar system require a special inverter? I would like some more info on your solar. Thanks Paul
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:19 AM   #4
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If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

I would first make a schdule and budget of what has to be done and what shold be done first, making sure you do not take on to much at one time and things are done in the correct order.* One and/or a couple steps at a time.* First sript/gut the boat, clear/seal the boat.*
*
I tend to do what the long range and commercial due and use, NOT the pleasure boats. A lot depends on you intended use and budget.

If you have to rewire, use wire sized for 110 volt AC and 12 volt DC.* Wire sized for 220 volt AC and 24 Volt DC may not be big enough for the amp load of 110 volts AC and 12 volts DC.* Since 210 volt AC is really two lead/wire if 110 you could wire some/part of the boat for 220 volts and some 110 volts AC like a dirt house.* Also make sure you re wire to ABYC standard and have a marine electrician advise/help as the AC, DC and galvanic zinc wiring are connected.* If not wired correctly a good way to start another fire.* So how did the fire start?
*
Sound like the existing engines, gen set, steering and tanks are going to be use.* the only thing would advise to keep the each engines fuel, battery, controls completely separate from each other, and might want to install a fuel polishing/transfer system.* If multi tanks might already have one.* Most long range and commercial keep engines separate of each other, so if one thing fail if does not effect the other.* *
*
In re wiring remodeling try to reduce keep the AC and DC amps to the minimum, and try to convert as much to DC, propane, and/or diesel.* Keep in mind 50 amps AC is not much, and 1 amp 120 volt AC is worth 10 amps 12 volts DC.* When we bought the Eagle is was an AC power hog, so over the years of convert heat, hot water, stove/oven, refrigerator to either DC, propane and or diesel.*
*

We have gone replace/remodel/repair 90% of the Eagle, and each step making the boat the best live aboard and long range boat as possible with*in*reason and our budget



-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 29th of July 2011 10:20:49 AM


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 29th of July 2011 11:06:05 AM
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:13 AM   #5
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

A watermaker would be nice if you are on the boat most of the time, if not "storage" of ROs can be a pain.

Definitely install a 3 stage fuel filter setup (30u and* 10u Fleetguard spin ons*and on engine)- see/order from*boatdiesel website. That way you don't get caught up in all the fuel polishing BS that will quickly get tossed to you by "believers." With a 3 stage setup, the volume of return fuel on DDs acts as a "fuel polisher" anyway.

Electronics? Me, I went Furuno NN3, AIS*and Nobeltec

If you have dogs, tow them in a dinghy with an astroturf sole.

Paint - Awlgrip or Sterling two part.

Enjoy the journey, glad to see you are well prepared to do it right.
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:26 PM   #6
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If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:When we bought the Eagle is was an AC power hog, so over the years of convert heat, hot water, stove/oven, refrigerator to either DC, propane and or diesel.*
So, if most of the energy you*consume as a permanent dock fixture is used for heating,*it means you traded electrical heating*that cost*2.3 cents per 1000 BTUs (at current local prices*)*for propane heating at 4 cents per 1000 BTUs and diesel fuel heating at 4.4 cents per 1000 BTUs.

That power hog*keeps*getting fatter with each improvement.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Electricity @ .08kWh*100 percent conversion efficiency*

Propane @ 3.00 gallon* 80 percent conversion efficiency

Diesel @ 3.99 gallon* 65 percent conversion efficiency



-- Edited by RickB on Friday 29th of July 2011 01:33:52 PM


-- Edited by RickB on Friday 29th of July 2011 02:13:39 PM
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Old 07-29-2011, 03:38 PM   #7
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Quote:
DavidM wrote:
Electricity can be even cheaper than you think for heating.
*Yes I understand that.*We use very high efficiency (19+ SEER)*"split" air conditioner/heat pumps on my Florida houses.

I just used the resistance heating value since*it established a very simple baseline from which to compare the other conversions.*
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:02 AM   #8
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

I wouldn't buy a boat too big.* But then I haven't yet.
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Old 07-30-2011, 04:29 AM   #9
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

I would like some more info on your solar.

Our solar is low tech , sufficient for keeping the batts up , as the boat sits on a mooring in CT , or in FL at our dock with no power hose.

A single 85W panel , Trace 12A charge controller , and a friend that checks the batt water sometime mid summer ( 90 days) is all it takes.

The electrics aboard when cruising are so minor , a few lamps , and a min or two of inverter to warm something does not start to lower the charge.

We use DEEP CYCLE 8D , not truck start batts as both house and starts.

Not what would normally be chosen , but the 6-71 has started so easily in our temps that it has been no problem.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:21 AM   #10
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Phil Fill, Great advice on the wiring. The boat was struck by lightning and I believe the batteries blew up and she slowly started to burn. The lighting entered the VHF antenna.

Sunchaser, I don't need the watermaker yet, I've got 1000 gallon water tank. It would be nice to get rid of the tank. I would like an icemaker, possibly a sal****er ice maker. I am with you one the opinion of the fuel polishing, I have two new tanks and the two old tanks I am going to cut a hole in the top and clean them before I cover them up. But I do like the pumps and levers the FP adds to the control room. I've got dogs but the dingy goes on the roof so I guess there staying home.

RickB, what is that crazy solar set up in your sig. Do you have that on your vessel? Please tell more.

My bilge area is huge, Long as the boat and wide. Is there a commercial wiring set up that can hold the wire yet open to run a new wire. I've been looking online and haven't had luck yet. I thought about 4" pvc but I don't want to have to "fish" the wire though. Should I get my fuel lines made with pressed ends or should I use the clamps? I am going to make a panel for the fuel filters should I use starboard or aluminum. I would like to us aluminum but I don't know about it being a conductive material if this would be a good idea.
Does anyone have a sewage treatment system. I can buy one here for about $2800 I believe, that will treat about 75 gallons per day.
Water heater-should I use an instant hot. I think when its time to shower, everyone will want to shower at the same time and I could fire up the generator.
I am not setting up for long term crusing just yet, I still work the 60hr/week grind but I am planning some long weekend to the barrier islands maybe a few trips to Destin and Pensacola every year.
Probably have three or four couples every trip, with kids.
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Old 07-31-2011, 05:35 AM   #11
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Quote:
swampu wrote:RickB, what is that crazy solar set up in your sig. Do you have that on your vessel? Please tell more.
*

http://www.planetsolar.org/

Pictures taken when it was in Miami.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:17 PM   #12
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

I don't need much heat here in winter in the Galveston Bay area, so I mostly use a couple of electric space heaters. I think they are more effective than the reverse cycle heaters, since they just heat up a coil and run a small fan. OTOH, I've heard that the reverse cycle heaters are efficient since they use heat that is already there, but it's hard to believe that they are more efficient than the little space heaters. When they run, there is a compressor, fan, and water pump running. Anybody have a definitive answer on this?
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:13 AM   #13
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

you typically get 2.5 watts for each watt of electrical energy.

The newest water units claim 5 to one over a heat strip.

This is great if you actually are billed for juice used in your slip.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:43 AM   #14
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If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

What I was referring to by AC electricity hog is that most docks power is limited to 50 amps.* I agree AC dock electricity is cheaper but alternative sources might have to be used.*So keep in mind the total AC and DC amps demand required*wiring and installing new systems.* When we bought the Eagle, heat, hot water, cooking was all AC electric. However we had 50 amps AC, so we had to convert/limit the AC electric items. From May to October we are on electric, and November to April electric and diesel.* We have gone for a week with out dock AC electricity, and two weeks with out water and sanitation.*
*
The Microphor sanitation system requires not electricity and/or chemicals, just use it.* Its sort of like a dirt septic tank.** http://www.microphor.com/html/sanitation-marine.html** We have a 50 gallon holding which we use in the marina, and get pump each week, but when the marina/water freezes we change over to the Microphor.*
*
You could cut the plastic pipe in and lay the wire in the 1/2 and/or use multi stand wire.* When re wiring the pilot house I used bronze hand rail/shower curtain tubing and cut the back side out, so the tubing fits over and hides the wiring.* Make sure you read/follow the ABYC standards as it requires a double throw breakers at the main panel, addtional breakers/fuses and GFI.* We had an insurance audit/review and had to being the AC and DC wiring up to ABYC standard, which required some requiring and additional breakers which I did 90% but had a marine electrician advise and bless the work done.* Most marine electrician are to busy and do not like going grunt work, so some will work with you.
*
We have an Ever Hot water heater which is heated by the Webasto diesel hot water heating system.**In the*summer we can close the valves and heat just the water for the Ever Hot.* In the PNW heat is more important than air conditioning* Shoot we are still in the 50 and 60 and it's August 1<sup>st</sup>?* We have air conditioning but most of the time during the year we use the fan mode to move the air around.** ****

*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Monday 1st of August 2011 11:18:54 AM
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:29 PM   #15
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If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Here are some new pictures since I finally got some time to work on her. I ended up pulling the Starboard fuel tanks after scoping them and not seeing shiny metal. I was glad I did, there was up to 1" of funk in the bottom of them. Trying to get the genset to run as it is suppose to, using the control box and wiring to a remote start. If any body has any advice please fire away. Like I said earlier I am new to this and sometimes cant see the forest for the trees so to speak. Thanks

The other pictures are of the deck on the port side which I had already repaired but am preparing to fair it out so the water drains better. *The other picture is the cabin, had some cracks from when the cabin fell into the hull after the fire. *The last picture is the access holes we cut to get to the slime in the tanks.


-- Edited by swampu on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 07:32:39 PM
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:23 AM   #16
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If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

one thing I did was redesign the heads.* I used RV*toilets that drop(flush) vertically into small holding tanks under the deck and then macerators move to a large holding tank (I haven't yet but may relocate it high enough so it can gravity drain so I need one less macerator).

The advantage of RV heads is they are foot flush (easy to use), use little water and are*virtually silent.* No noise in the middle of the night and only a soft whir when you empty the small holding tanks to the larger one once a day or so.* If your boat can handle large holding tanks under or nearly under the toilets...then the system can be simpler.

Another plus...the RV toilets are inexpensive.* Each head renovation cost me less than $200 with toilet and plumbing.


-- Edited by psneeld on Thursday 17th of November 2011 06:34:13 AM
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:49 AM   #17
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

There is a guy who hangs on curisers forum who has completed a simuliar project as yours If I can remember his name ill let you know
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:24 AM   #18
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Paul, did you make it to the Wooden Boat Festival in Madisonville, there was a Lugger class and there were several beautiful refits, but none the length of yours as I recall. Could have been a goldmine of ideas. Personally I would consider keeping the new fuel tanks and removing the old. We have 450 gallon capacity and that is WAY too much. I think that today with so many places to buy fuel and Activecaptain it is unnecessary to carry so much fuel. I would also consider home style appliances given your generators. Stove, fridge, dishwasher, washer/ dryer. You're gonna be running the gen set anyway in our climate. Why bother with anything 12 volt besides lighting and a good inverter. We go out to Ship, Horn and Cat Islands when able and hope to see you out there next summer!
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:08 AM   #19
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If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Quote:
Forkliftt wrote:*I would also consider home style appliances given your generators. Stove, fridge, dishwasher, washer/ dryer. You're gonna be running the gen set anyway in our climate. Why bother with anything 12 volt besides lighting and a good inverter.
I will second that suggestion. I lived aboard my 65' tug conversion for a few years and went that direction. The boat was a 1944 wood boat with 120VDC so I had a large battery bank to power the DC lighting and other engine auxiliaries.*The boat had*a 20kW 2-71 to recharge batteries and power the heavier items like compressors,**but as minor components needed replacing I replaced them with modern AC powered units. I had an 8kW 220VAC genset for the AC items I couldn't live wthout while underway or when the dock power failed.

The stove was LPG, refrigeration was AC powered (repowered from DC)*semi-hermetic mounted in the engine room with coolers in the galley. Modern household appliances will hold up just fine in a larger boat that is constantly air conditioned - or at least dehumidified. Try and set up your branch circuits so that the infrequently used*heavy consumers can be powered by the second generator and try to avoid having both generators operating with light loads. If you can parallel them that is good but otherwise provide for a bus tie so everything can be run off one generator.

As far as DC lighting on your boat, why bother? Wire everything for 120VAC and keep it simple. That way you can have good deck lighting*plus floods and spots and use inexpensive off the shelf components.*You can install an emergency lighting sytsem powered off the batteries or a separate emergency battery in the wheelhouse that also supplies radios and basic nav equipment.


-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 17th of November 2011 09:10:30 AM
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:30 PM   #20
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RE: If you were starting with a clean slate, what would you do. Or not do????

Here are some more pictures of the deck work. Started grinding some bubbles here and there and ended up taking up a lot more than I was hoping for. Had my helper today.
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