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Old 05-22-2014, 05:05 AM   #1001
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Hey Matt, I've been doing lots of research into sound insulation (but still have yet to put it into action as it is very complicated) You, on the other hand, are looking at it at the right time.

From what I've read/heard/experienced the biggest factor to control noise is to seal the source of the noise. Build your ER completely air tight with the exception of your air intake. Then you can get away with using less than space-age products to insulate the noise.
If you have the space, anything which has lots of mass, and "floats" rather than is fixed solidly will insulate well. You pay big bucks to do that in an inch of thickness, but if you have the space, the acoustic batts between two sealed plywood boxes would work just as well or better. Don't fix both sides solidly, otherwise the sound will transfer. Use a Z-bar system or acoustic caulking to minimise the transfer.

A good seal on your hatch and you won't even know your engine is running.
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:07 AM   #1002
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Coming in at 1001, then.
Matt, I used the pink batts material behind the teak veneer I relined the front cabin where the PO lost momentum after ripping out the old water-stained lining. The thing is it is retained nicely by the teak veneered ply. In that situation it works well, deadening the slapping of water on the hull and preventing condensation, and keeping the front cabin warmer in cold weather, cooler in the heat. How would you achieve the same in the engine room to fix it in place. You want it sealed off, or the tiny fibreglass fibres permeate everywhere.

That (rather expensive) shiny sound deadening material at least has the advantage of being self-contained, and tacky-backed with adhesive, so easy to fix, and the silvered surface reflects heat as well as sound back into the ER,. There is usually 2 layers of foam of a different density separated by a sheet of something between them to further increase the deadening effect as well. To get the same deadening effect, you would need much thicker batts and some way of covering and sealing it off, and at the same time fixing it to the hull, and underfloor surfaces. Could be tricky - possible with imagination, and I know you have that, but tricky…

Bugger it Auscan, you pipped me...
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:23 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
Hey Matt, I've been doing lots of research into sound insulation (but still have yet to put it into action as it is very complicated) You, on the other hand, are looking at it at the right time.

From what I've read/heard/experienced the biggest factor to control noise is to seal the source of the noise. Build your ER completely air tight with the exception of your air intake. Then you can get away with using less than space-age products to insulate the noise.
If you have the space, anything which has lots of mass, and "floats" rather than is fixed solidly will insulate well. You pay big bucks to do that in an inch of thickness, but if you have the space, the acoustic batts between two sealed plywood boxes would work just as well or better. Don't fix both sides solidly, otherwise the sound will transfer. Use a Z-bar system or acoustic caulking to minimise the transfer.

A good seal on your hatch and you won't even know your engine is running.


Hey mate.
Cheers for the info. I will be installing 12mm ply sheeting to the underside of the floor joist giving the bilge area a ceiling. The batts will then go in then I will put the ply flooring in, sandwiching the batts between the two sheets. Moving to the fwd section, I will do the hull and the engine room bulkheads to reduce lap noise and temperature extremes. The batts will be encapsulated and all will be sweet IMO.

Should work a treat ay?!



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Old 05-22-2014, 07:31 AM   #1004
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Coming in at 1001, then.
Matt, I used the pink batts material behind the teak veneer I relined the front cabin where the PO lost momentum after ripping out the old water-stained lining. The thing is it is retained nicely by the teak veneered ply. In that situation it works well, deadening the slapping of water on the hull and preventing condensation, and keeping the front cabin warmer in cold weather, cooler in the heat. How would you achieve the same in the engine room to fix it in place. You want it sealed off, or the tiny fibreglass fibres permeate everywhere.

That (rather expensive) shiny sound deadening material at least has the advantage of being self-contained, and tacky-backed with adhesive, so easy to fix, and the silvered surface reflects heat as well as sound back into the ER,. There is usually 2 layers of foam of a different density separated by a sheet of something between them to further increase the deadening effect as well. To get the same deadening effect, you would need much thicker batts and some way of covering and sealing it off, and at the same time fixing it to the hull, and underfloor surfaces. Could be tricky - possible with imagination, and I know you have that, but tricky…

Bugger it Auscan, you pipped me...

Condensation, how do the batts go with that Pete? Much water retention?

Fibres won't be an issue as there will be a ceiling in the engine room/bilge sealing the batts in.



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Old 05-22-2014, 08:25 AM   #1005
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Greetings,
Mr. H. I would be VERY, VERY hesitant about encapsulating any insulating material in the decks or walls. Rot is dependent on moisture and dead air. The more areas one can move air around in the better IMO. Ventilation is the key to a sweet smelling boat and I don't mean only after a night out at Taco Bell.
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:58 AM   #1006
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Woohoo ... Thanks for contributing guys! ... I appreciate everyone's input ... I wouldn't be where I am today without everyone's help, generosity and more importantly your friendship! ... Cheers

Attachment 30074


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# 1000 - Right On!

What's cha gonna du when ya hit 2K??? I figure that mark will be bout AXE's Big SPLASH!!! Might even happen at 1.5K or sooner the way you get with things! Just on this thread you must have near a 1000 geat pictures too...

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Old 05-22-2014, 10:09 AM   #1007
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# 1000 - Right On!

What's cha gonna du when ya hit 2K??? I figure that mark will be bout AXE's Big SPLASH!!! Might even happen at 1.5K or sooner the way you get with things! Just on this thread you must have near a 1000 geat pictures too...

Happy Boat Builden Daze! - Art

Hey Brother! ... Great to hear from ya :-) ... Yeah can only imagine how much data I've spent uploading pics lol. I should factor this site into the construction costs for AXE lol.



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Old 05-22-2014, 10:34 AM   #1008
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Hey Matt - You may have already answered these:

What type flooring you going to use? What will your sole sub floor material be over AXE's engine compartment?

Another post wisely mentioned to make the engine compartment sealed best as possible except for large quantity of outside air ventilation. That will help keep noise contained.

Another post wisely mentioned to be real careful on enclosed insulation due to moisture entrapment that can cause rot.

IMHO (works well on our Tolly): Along with sealed engine compartment. Over marine plywood sub floor we have 1/2 thick water proof, mildew resistant carpet underlayment pad with top quality Berber carpet and over rugs atop that where desired. Real comfy on bare feet and easy to keep clean This goes wall to wall in our salon in which twin gassers and gas 7.5 gen set sit underneath. The Big Hatches that open salon floor wide for engine access have limited amount of insulation to help deaden/absorb sound and fit so closely together that one cannot be start-lifted without also lifting the other... Final couple inch of together for closing is actuated by slight foot pressure. Pad and carped go fully over piano hinges and simply fold when hatches are open. This set up allows us to cruise at 3400 rpm and still keep salon voices to standard levels. On the hook with gen running it can hardly be heard... even under tall load. Exhaust put-put and splashing water flow out hull side is loudest gen sound. We close stbd salon door and that too becomes minimal.


We're testing our Tolly's soun-deadening qualities for 6 days this holiday weekend!

Cheers! Art
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:27 PM   #1009
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Hey mate,
Thanks for the link. Yep similar stuff to over here and is as pricey as hell.
Do you have similar in Moonstruck? Is it worth the cost.


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Yes, and Moonstruck's helm deck is directly above the engines. Standing over 1000 hp at 2500 rpm and 26 knots we can converse. It works. When the engine hatch goes down the sound reduction is amazing.
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:04 PM   #1010
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Matt,

I used the 2" Soundown with the barrier in the center on a previous boat. As Don said, the difference when the engine room door is shut is astounding. I thought it was pricey too but absolutly worth it.

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Old 05-22-2014, 07:19 PM   #1011
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There are plenty of pink batts left over from a suddenly terminated installation program.
Hope no one minds, but numerous Aussies and friends see this thread, and some are known revheads.
Sir Jack Brabham, three times Formula 1 winner, the last in a car of his own design and construction, died at age 88. He famously pushed unassisted his out of fuel car 100 yards to the finish line, finishing 4th in that race and sealing the F1 championship win. He did much to put Australia into the elite area of F1 and was much revered nationwide.
As his health began to decline he famously declared " I intend to die without any enemies", adding" I`m going to outlive the bastards". Vale Jack Brabham.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:57 PM   #1012
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Yes, Bruce, another good man gone. Still, we have a F1 GP this weekend - can't wait - Monaco, no less - son and I follow it. I'm sure there will be a minute's silence for him on the grid.
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Old 05-23-2014, 04:01 AM   #1013
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Hey Matt - You may have already answered these:

What type flooring you going to use? What will your sole sub floor material be over AXE's engine compartment?

Another post wisely mentioned to make the engine compartment sealed best as possible except for large quantity of outside air ventilation. That will help keep noise contained.

Another post wisely mentioned to be real careful on enclosed insulation due to moisture entrapment that can cause rot.

IMHO (works well on our Tolly): Along with sealed engine compartment. Over marine plywood sub floor we have 1/2 thick water proof, mildew resistant carpet underlayment pad with top quality Berber carpet and over rugs atop that where desired. Real comfy on bare feet and easy to keep clean This goes wall to wall in our salon in which twin gassers and gas 7.5 gen set sit underneath. The Big Hatches that open salon floor wide for engine access have limited amount of insulation to help deaden/absorb sound and fit so closely together that one cannot be start-lifted without also lifting the other... Final couple inch of together for closing is actuated by slight foot pressure. Pad and carped go fully over piano hinges and simply fold when hatches are open. This set up allows us to cruise at 3400 rpm and still keep salon voices to standard levels. On the hook with gen running it can hardly be heard... even under tall load. Exhaust put-put and splashing water flow out hull side is loudest gen sound. We close stbd salon door and that too becomes minimal.


We're testing our Tolly's soun-deadening qualities for 6 days this holiday weekend!

Cheers! Art

Hey Brother! ... Thanks for the rundown and pics! I love seeing pics. As it's said, They speak 1000 words! Great to see the family is happy and enjoying boating daze too!

Well as you know, the joists are 100 x 50 (4x2?) hardwood Jarrah. On that I am installing 18mm ply (same as the rest of her to date) on top of that I will glass tape the joins and then install the vinyl strips as detailed in the last few posts. Going below deck and I between the jarrah ribs, I will be installing sound proof batts followed by sheets of 12 mm ply creating a ceiling. Now there is concern as to the breathability in the ceiling cavity areas but I will be installing LED down lights in the ceiling of the bilge for lighting this will aid in ventilation, not much but it will help. I am having two hatches only, and they are internal. One for the PERKINS in the main floor and one for my fat arse to climb through to access the bilge near the helm (that no one likes lol).

These will have similar treatments but will be that shiny foam stuff they use on the moon. Main reason is that I will get away with having a hinged door as opposed to having a big/bulky structure to deal with by the time the insulation goes in.

The bulkhead/shower and toilet walls as well as the main bedding area will have the same sound batts installed.

I'm not too concerned as to rot as water won't be able to get in there as all opening will be inside and the timbers will be preposterous with epoxy and painted in JOTUN Jotamastic before installing the batts and sealing off.

Well that's the plan until I see something better suited for my baby

Cheers
Hendo


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Old 05-23-2014, 04:02 AM   #1014
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Matt,



I used the 2" Soundown with the barrier in the center on a previous boat. As Don said, the difference when the engine room door is shut is astounding. I thought it was pricey too but absolutly worth it.



Rob

Hey Rob!
Nice to hear from you. Thanks for the comment and welcome to my thread. You advice is Duly noted my friend.

Thanks again


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Old 05-23-2014, 04:03 AM   #1015
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Yes, and Moonstruck's helm deck is directly above the engines. Standing over 1000 hp at 2500 rpm and 26 knots we can converse. It works. When the engine hatch goes down the sound reduction is amazing.

Hey Don
Cheers mate! 1000hp! Holy crap. I got 120hp hahaha :-/


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Old 05-23-2014, 04:04 AM   #1016
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There are plenty of pink batts left over from a suddenly terminated installation program.
Hope no one minds, but numerous Aussies and friends see this thread, and some are known revheads.
Sir Jack Brabham, three times Formula 1 winner, the last in a car of his own design and construction, died at age 88. He famously pushed unassisted his out of fuel car 100 yards to the finish line, finishing 4th in that race and sealing the F1 championship win. He did much to put Australia into the elite area of F1 and was much revered nationwide.
As his health began to decline he famously declared " I intend to die without any enemies", adding" I`m going to outlive the bastards". Vale Jack Brabham.

Hahaha yeah nah wrong type of batts for me mate but thanks anyway lol




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Old 05-23-2014, 04:05 AM   #1017
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Yes, Bruce, another good man gone. Still, we have a F1 GP this weekend - can't wait - Monaco, no less - son and I follow it. I'm sure there will be a minute's silence for him on the grid.

Yeah he did a lot for the sport. So many good people leaving lately.


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Old 05-23-2014, 04:10 AM   #1018
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Picked up my rope and bilge paint today. Ended up getting 250 mtrs of rope to add to the 100 mtrs of chain.

The Jotamastic 87 bilge paint looks like a gift from the gods on the TDC and MSDS... Let's hope it performs as well as they have said it will. I will let y'all know either way!

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Old 05-23-2014, 05:43 AM   #1019
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Matt, re that question re moisture getting into the batt 'belfry', (joke), I find that's a good thing re the fibreglass batts - they allow air to circulate as they are not that dense, and they don't concentrate cold at the surface anyway, so condensation just does not seem to occur. So as long as water does not get in in any quantity, any small ingress of damp or condensation that does will dry out quite quickly, and no way will batts rot anyway, and it sounds like you are sealing the timbers well, so should be no problem with your plan.
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:38 PM   #1020
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Matt, re that question re moisture getting into the batt 'belfry', (joke), I find that's a good thing re the fibreglass batts - they allow air to circulate as they are not that dense, and they don't concentrate cold at the surface anyway, so condensation just does not seem to occur. So as long as water does not get in in any quantity, any small ingress of damp or condensation that does will dry out quite quickly, and no way will batts rot anyway, and it sounds like you are sealing the timbers well, so should be no problem with your plan.

Hi Pete,
The acoustic batt I am looking at are considerably more dense (kinda like me) than the pink R.4 Bradford gold batts used for insulation purposes. However, same rationale "should" apply to my choices re warming properties as well as being resistant to mould, mildew and rot.

If something terrible happens and AXE breaks up, at least we'll be easy to spot with all the insulation floating on the surface lol touch wood that doesn't ever happen ... Nothing conventional or traditional about this old girl that's for sure! Lol


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