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Old 07-13-2016, 05:41 AM   #2841
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I can't see it because I added the user to my ignore list but I've been pm'd a screen shot of a question raised in relation to the timber framework I am using and the plywood i have chosen, ultimately critiquing my work.

Just to clarify; the only difference between the plywood I used and the "A" grade marine plywood on the market are the face veneers. The plywood I bought has the odd knot in it whereas "A" grade plywood does not. The plywood I am using is structural F17 with a "A" glue bond.

What the original poster has failed to realise is this boat is not being built using traditional methods like cotton seams and allowing the water to penetrate the ply causing it to swell.

This is a composite construction boat

Buying a plywood panel with an "A" grade face then covering it with 10mm of high strength epoxy filler, 450gsm fibreglass cloth, 5mm of lightweight fillers and then high build primer and various coats of epoxy barrier coats makes absolutely no sense in my opinion instead opting for a structural plywood panel at less than half the cost with zero disadvantage was my choice.

In relation to the timber framework. The variety of structural timber i chose was MGP10 T2 blue pine.

I chose this because it is lightweight, is structural and is resistant to infestation. I'm really not sure what concerns the original poster has in relation to this timber or what he would have used instead but at the time of construction, the hardware store was fresh out of "timber to be used only on boats" haha.

The framework of the hull was 100x50 seasoned Jarrah which is a hardwood species unlike pine which is a softwood species and about two times as heavy.

Hope that help clears up everyone's concerns or questions. Please feel free to let me know if you need anymore info in relation to the timbers used.

Happy to clear up any concerns.

Cheers

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Old 07-13-2016, 05:46 AM   #2842
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Originally Posted by Pack Mule View Post
Post # 2816 I'm a big fan of nice folks , makes my day better . I'm with you all the way Matt . This thread is my "get off my arse and work on the boat "

motivator. Your work ethic and determination is second to none. Can't wait to see some paint going on . Are you planning on any high gloss wood anywhere next to the gloss black ?

Gday mate. Thanks for your support. Your projects have driven me to get crackin mate lol.

No nothing planned at this stage mate however I am looking at adding highgloss timber sections on the transom and up the sides up to the roof support.

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Old 07-13-2016, 06:33 AM   #2843
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Ok so got some good news today courtesy of Facebook sale pages. I scored 510kgs of lead for $800. Massive savings. Even better is it is in flat sections so I'm thinking about fixing it to the outer faces of the keel. Kind of like cladding the keel in lead. If lead is no good for water then I'll fit it in the bilge instead.

Anyone know of any issues putting lead in salt water?

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Old 07-13-2016, 06:48 AM   #2844
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I believe lead would not corrode, however when it came to water blasting to renew antifoul, there might be some concerns. I'm not sure, but inside might be better..?
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:54 AM   #2845
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Sailboats have lead keels that are just painted.

Though the ones I owned were encapsulated in the glass so I neve paid attention too close to galvanic or disolving issues.

Here is a quick read from practical sailor...

http://www.practical-sailor.com/news...r-10067-1.html

"As a rule, lead keels require far less care than iron. Nevertheless, they are not maintenance free. While you don’t normally think of your lead keel as corroding away, lead keels can develop significant problems that both degrade performance and reduce the value of your boat.

The main culprit is bottom paints with a high copper content. Copper paint on a lead keel creates a galvanic couple, just as copper paint does on an iron keel. Fortunately, the difference in potential between lead and copper is far less than the difference between iron and copper, so that corrosion problems are commensurately smaller.

The wet spot on this lead keel indicates a pocket of porous material.

However, it is common to see lead keels with crumbly, whitish surface deposits, which when scraped away reveal a porous surface where the lead has corroded. Fortunately, the surface of a lead keel does not corrode and pit in the same manner as an iron keel, and reasonable repairs can be made without expensive equipment.

A drill-powered wire brush will usually grind away surface deposits and do an adequate job of cleaning out shallow corroded areas. It is important to remove as much of the crumbly oxidized lead as possible, to create a good surface for filler bonding.

With the lead clean and bright, fill corroded areas immediately with an epoxy filler. The best epoxy fillers for this purpose are the ones you make yourself from epoxy resin, such as the Gougeon Brothers West System epoxy, and a filler such as phenolic microballoons or microspheres. Remember that lead is pretty soft, and you don’t want your filler to be significantly harder than the surrounding material.

When filling, give the area to be faired a prime coat of unfilled epoxy before applying the thickened epoxy mixture. This will allow a better bond between the filler and the surface. You can allow the clear epoxy to partially kick off before over-coating with filler, but don’t let it cure completely or you’ll get a poor bond.

When the filler has cured, sand or plane it level and smooth. A belt sander or conventional hand bench plane can be used, since lead planes almost as easily as wood.

With all corroded areas and damaged areas cleaned and filled, sand or wire brush the rest of the keel to bright metal. A belt sander or disc sander works fine here, although proper use of either tool to avoid gouging the surface takes a little practice. A lead keel is far easier to bring to bright metal than an iron keel. The fin keel of a 30-footer can be done in an hour or so.

To make sure your keel doesn’t begin to corrode again, you must completely isolate the surface of the keel from the bottom paint with an epoxy barrier."
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:55 AM   #2846
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Yeah I was able to get flat pieces this time that I thought could go on the keel but the next lot will be roll off cuts so will be perfect for the bilge area. I'll look into it :-)


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Old 07-13-2016, 06:58 AM   #2847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Sailboats have lead keels that are just painted.

Though the ones I owned were encapsulated in the glass so I neve paid attention too close to galvanic or disolving issues.

Here is a quick read from practical sailor...

http://www.practical-sailor.com/news...r-10067-1.html

"As a rule, lead keels require far less care than iron. Nevertheless, they are not maintenance free. While you donít normally think of your lead keel as corroding away, lead keels can develop significant problems that both degrade performance and reduce the value of your boat.

The main culprit is bottom paints with a high copper content. Copper paint on a lead keel creates a galvanic couple, just as copper paint does on an iron keel. Fortunately, the difference in potential between lead and copper is far less than the difference between iron and copper, so that corrosion problems are commensurately smaller.

The wet spot on this lead keel indicates a pocket of porous material.

However, it is common to see lead keels with crumbly, whitish surface deposits, which when scraped away reveal a porous surface where the lead has corroded. Fortunately, the surface of a lead keel does not corrode and pit in the same manner as an iron keel, and reasonable repairs can be made without expensive equipment.

A drill-powered wire brush will usually grind away surface deposits and do an adequate job of cleaning out shallow corroded areas. It is important to remove as much of the crumbly oxidized lead as possible, to create a good surface for filler bonding.

With the lead clean and bright, fill corroded areas immediately with an epoxy filler. The best epoxy fillers for this purpose are the ones you make yourself from epoxy resin, such as the Gougeon Brothers West System epoxy, and a filler such as phenolic microballoons or microspheres. Remember that lead is pretty soft, and you donít want your filler to be significantly harder than the surrounding material.

When filling, give the area to be faired a prime coat of unfilled epoxy before applying the thickened epoxy mixture. This will allow a better bond between the filler and the surface. You can allow the clear epoxy to partially kick off before over-coating with filler, but donít let it cure completely or youíll get a poor bond.

When the filler has cured, sand or plane it level and smooth. A belt sander or conventional hand bench plane can be used, since lead planes almost as easily as wood.

With all corroded areas and damaged areas cleaned and filled, sand or wire brush the rest of the keel to bright metal. A belt sander or disc sander works fine here, although proper use of either tool to avoid gouging the surface takes a little practice. A lead keel is far easier to bring to bright metal than an iron keel. The fin keel of a 30-footer can be done in an hour or so.

To make sure your keel doesnít begin to corrode again, you must completely isolate the surface of the keel from the bottom paint with an epoxy barrier."

Awesome thanks mate.


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Old 07-13-2016, 08:24 AM   #2848
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hendo, I would be more inclined to keep all the lead on the inside and lay it flat on the bottom where at all possible.
at least you won't be feeding or creating any stray currents on the outside around you shaft .prop etc.
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:29 AM   #2849
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Ok so got some good news today courtesy of Facebook sale pages. I scored 510kgs of lead for $800. Massive savings. Even better is it is in flat sections so I'm thinking about fixing it to the outer faces of the keel. Kind of like cladding the keel in lead. If lead is no good for water then I'll fit it in the bilge instead.

Anyone know of any issues putting lead in salt water?

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Good find! BUT - 1124 lbs. lead must have cost a fortune in shipping! Just kidding... it must have been close enough for pick up - right?

Sooo... when SOLSTICE splashes are you planning to already have the lead fastened to the keel? Or are you just going to have the lead available for interior placement until you get a "feel of the deal" where ballast may be actually needed?

Without being on site at your boat build, I'm not able to really ascertain what my mind's eye would tell me as far as where/what the chances for ballast placements are. Do you have inkling as to where SOLSTICE may need ballast? Ya, Know... she might require less ballast than you think... that I hope for your sake!
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:21 AM   #2850
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hendo, I would be more inclined to keep all the lead on the inside and lay it flat on the bottom where at all possible.
at least you won't be feeding or creating any stray currents on the outside around you shaft .prop etc.

What a game tonight hey mate..! Go the blues woohoo lol.

Ah Ok cool. Something to consider.


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Old 07-13-2016, 09:30 AM   #2851
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Hendo's Randall 35 Cray Boat complete rebuild, Perth, Western Australia

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Good find! BUT - 1124 lbs. lead must have cost a fortune in shipping! Just kidding... it must have been close enough for pick up - right?

Sooo... when SOLSTICE splashes are you planning to already have the lead fastened to the keel? Or are you just going to have the lead available for interior placement until you get a "feel of the deal" where ballast may be actually needed?

Without being on site at your boat build, I'm not able to really ascertain what my mind's eye would tell me as far as where/what the chances for ballast placements are. Do you have inkling as to where SOLSTICE may need ballast? Ya, Know... she might require less ballast than you think... that I hope for your sake!

Lol no postage mate. There is a guy that makes doors and panels for hospital X-ray, CT Scan rooms and MRI rooms and these are off cuts. The lead is laminated to a timber product so was going to plane the timber off and save the lead but if I keep it inside the engine room as Tida has suggested then I could epoxy fibreglass them into an encapsulated tablet.

I'm picking them up on Friday so will look then I guess.

Re: ballast. I have no idea mate. She-Kon and I were talking tonight and apparently there is a way to work out where ballast is needed. I have no clue to be honest. Have to suck it and see until she is in the water. I guess the sensible thing to do would be to wait and see if/where they are needed huh.


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Old 07-13-2016, 09:51 AM   #2852
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Re: ballast. I have no idea mate. She-Kon and I were talking tonight and apparently there is a way to work out where ballast is needed. I have no clue to be honest. Have to suck it and see until she is in the water. I guess the sensible thing to do would be to wait and see if/where they are needed huh.

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Old 07-13-2016, 11:42 AM   #2853
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I use house paint in quite a few areas or spots on Willy.

Inside cockpit coaming, small amount of cockpit deck, Radar electronics platform and last but most important the salon floors. Exterior water based house paint (top qual Benjamin Moore) for all but the Salon floors. There I use top quality BM floor/patio water based paint. All has been good to satisfactory except the small area in the aft cockpit where it gets walked on a lot. It just gets too dirty looking assumably from the texture of the paint. Actually I'm going to work on that today. Going to replace it w Brightside like the other outside deck surfaces.

In the pic below is the first coat of the BM house paint on the inside of the cockpit. The green. It's now a light buff (tan) and it's a perfect place for house paint.
House paint is heavily engineered to last as long as possible on houses in all weather. You expect 10 years on a house and the only difference on a boat is salt. I don't see the salt environment to be a problem w house paint. Many fishermen in Alaska paint their wood boats w house paint. They leave excessive sanding and scraping to us "yachts".
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:33 PM   #2854
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I use house paint in quite a few areas or spots on Willy.

Inside cockpit coaming, small amount of cockpit deck, Radar electronics platform and last but most important the salon floors. Exterior water based house paint (top qual Benjamin Moore) for all but the Salon floors. There I use top quality BM floor/patio water based paint. All has been good to satisfactory except the small area in the aft cockpit where it gets walked on a lot. It just gets too dirty looking assumably from the texture of the paint. Actually I'm going to work on that today. Going to replace it w Brightside like the other outside deck surfaces.

In the pic below is the first coat of the BM house paint on the inside of the cockpit. The green. It's now a light buff (tan) and it's a perfect place for house paint.
House paint is heavily engineered to last as long as possible on houses in all weather. You expect 10 years on a house and the only difference on a boat is salt. I don't see the salt environment to be a problem w house paint. Many fishermen in Alaska paint their wood boats w house paint. They leave excessive sanding and scraping to us "yachts".
Eric - What is cost comparison per gallon regarding top quality BM house paint for decks and marine deck paints... let's say... to Kiwigrip? Do you think the house paint is as long term durable as Kiwigrip? How do you get non skid with house paint... add beads or sprinkle sand, or melt crushed ice or maybe salt?
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Old 07-13-2016, 02:35 PM   #2855
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Art,

From my experience KiwiGrip is absolutely worth the added cost. It is foolproof and hard as nails when fully cured and it hides minor imperfections.

I have tried top quality house /deck paints in the past with both ground walnut shells/garnet and good old sand. Problem is wear on the high spots. With the KiwiGrip type products the color is through and wear spots don't show as much.

Just my 2 cents,
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Old 07-13-2016, 02:54 PM   #2856
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Art,
I have no idea what the house paint costs. I got sticker shock the last time I bought Interlux Brightside at over $100 for two quarts. I don't know what Kiwi or any other special deck coats cost either. But I do know I won't need to ever sand off the house paint.

I have a favorite paint store and got the "non-skid" from them. I said I was going to use two coats and was told to put the anti-skid in the first coat and none in the second. Don't know what it's made of. Some of my house paint has been on for several years but I have no long term experience on the boat. Twenty years ago my then neighbor (worked for Parker Paint) gave me some "floor" paint for my back porch. Put one coat on and five years later it looked almost new. And we seldom used the front door. Very soon I'm going to put some "ultra white" floor paint on my cabin roof. Ive had dark green floor paint on the cabin floor for several years and it's holding up nicely. Mostly on the boat I use Brightside. Good user friendly coating. Don't use high tech unless I really think it's better for me and cost effective. But I rarely use oil base enamel. Guess I'm a middle of the roa .. fairway guy. That .... mostly ... applies to anchors as well.
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Old 07-13-2016, 03:40 PM   #2857
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Well that was interesting. Another user added to the Ignore list :-)
Head stuck firmly in sand eh?

Quote:
Not sure why all the bitterness has arisen in the last few days.
No bitterness on my part at all.
I'm not the one who has been calling people a dick.

I offered a suggestion, an alternative to what you are doing it
You shitcanned it as a stupid suggestion based on them not being marine paints even though one of them most definitely was.
You then went on to claim you wont use anything non marine on your boat, only the best quality for your boat you said.
Then you went on to say its caravan and house gear for you.
You freely admit to using lesser grades of ply and household framing timber contradicting what you yourself said.

When this contradiction was pointed out in a calm and coherent manner, you and several of your ilk started making unkind remarks, calling me a dick etc all the while claiming it is me who is the bitter one, that I am the one being nasty?

Logic fail right there.

Anyway, do what you like, I couldn't care in the slightest.
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Old 07-13-2016, 04:38 PM   #2858
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Just to clarify; the only difference between the plywood I used and the "A" grade marine plywood on the market are the face veneers.
Not entirely correct.
A grade marine has zero flaws in face and interior layers.
The timber used must be to a certain grade and quality

Your ply uses the same glue, but the timber is of lesser grade,the interior layers do have voids and the exterior face has knots and polyester fillers.

I acknowledge that for your project and intended purpose it is suitable for the job but it is a looong way from marine.

Quote:
What the original poster has failed to realise
I have not failed to realise anything, I have been in the boatbuilding game for 30 odd years so have seen what you are doing done countless times.
Quote:
This is a composite construction boat
Call it what you like but fiberglassing one side of a panel while leaving the other side and ancillary framing exposed is not composite.

Composite is using a material as a core and glassing both sides to get a lightweight structure.
Foam, Balsa, Wester Red Cedar are the most common cores and have little inherent strength in themselves and rely on the outer skin separated by the core to gain strength.
It has effectively created an I beam.

Read more
here. Not the best article but it is generic and doesnt push certain brands. Boatbuilding Basics‚€”Fiberglass, Composites, and Wood - PropTalk

Quote:
Happy to clear up any concerns.
No concerns from me.
Like I said 30 odd years in the game so I have seen just about everything in timber and actual composite builds.
I never had any issues with the materials you used

I did have issue with being called a dick and being told my suggestions were sub standard when you yourself are using ............lets just say, "appropriate" but not the best available yourself.

Again, no animosity or bitterness on my part
Have a nice day
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:12 PM   #2859
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Wow...glad I know the difference between a "long way" between products.

It only comes with lots of experience and knowing what will suffice for the particular use.

I have no horse in the race but for those that think one product is better or more suitable for "some" but not all things should refer to politics.....where nothing ever seems to fall into place clearly.

Though I know that I am perfect.........one thing that has always stuck and modified my behavior was the statement that it doesn't matter what I really am, it is what I am being perceived as.....because the way I was acting or saying something...no matter how factual or true it might be....what matters more is how it is peceived.

Then there is always...there obviously is two sides to the truth.....
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:14 PM   #2860
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Again, no animosity or bitterness on my part
Have a nice day
Damn glad that's over with! Don't think Matt listening to you any longer. But, maybe I'm wrong???
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