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Old 12-06-2014, 05:17 PM   #1
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Hatteras 48LRC Refit

I am in need of a re power or rebuild of my Detroit 453 Naturals and I know "most people" say just rebuild them old things and they are the most reliable and I read an old thread on here April or 2013 that had some great points for both sides...
I have a 48' Hatteras LRCc that has 453 N Detroits and I have been milking them for the past couple of years.. low compression on most cylinders and smoking for first 10 min after start up but my port motor finally bit the dust and needs a rebuild so I want to rebuild them both.. complete take outs and everything new rebuilds or go with new John Deer 4045T's.. last year I considered it with 4045T's tier 2 (some were still available) that had similar HP of 121 HP to the 453's approx 120 hp in my boat.... the new tier 3's are about 135 hp and my concerns are more HP than needed and longevity.
The Tier 3 at 135 HP are they still a 20,000 hour motors like their non turbo 4045 Naturals Brethren ? Cost is obviously more Repowering with JD but I am leaning toward the new/Cleaner/technology and better fuel consumption and looking at Re Sale down the road...
any opinions especially from anyone that has re powered with John Deers with Turbo's on how happy they are or aren't...
Thanks
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Old 12-06-2014, 05:35 PM   #2
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I switched from Cummins 555 to JD 6068's. Best thing I ever did.

Don't be concerned about the 135 HP. You dont have to use it, but it is a minor increase anyway and will make little difference. Slightly more pitch in your props if you want to get fussy about it.

One of your issues with the repower change could be gearboxes and prop sizes.

If you do repower, you will be astonished at how little fuel you are using at lower cruise speeds. Fuel efficiency at low-mid rpm is a JD hallmark.
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:04 PM   #3
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I understand your thoughts. I also have a 48 and thought the same. I would also consider how long you will keep her, you won't get any more as a selling price for new compared to a rebuild. The one thing about the 453's is they are simple and keep on ticking.
Good luck on your decision.
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:19 PM   #4
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I have a set of JD 6068 engines and find them clean smooth and so far reliable with good service available in my area. Don't worry about the extra power the common rail technology will take care of that and you will lose no significant fuel economy with 135 vs 120 hp. I recommend without reservation.
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:46 PM   #5
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I'm in the middle of repowering my Cherubini with a single 4045 tier 2. The tier 2 engines could be set at 107, 121, or 135 HP. This is a reprogramming of the computer, nothing more . Mine will be set at 107 HP which is the M1 rating, full power 24 hours per day continuous. My cruise will likely be at 1/3 power.

Looking at the JD website, the tier 3 series 4045TFM85 is M 1 at 100 HP and M 2 at 125 HP. M2 is 16 hours out of 24 with a 3K to 5K annual hours usage. Again most likely, changing from one to the other is only a matter of reprogramming the computer.

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Old 12-06-2014, 07:56 PM   #6
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Take a look at the old thread with some recent posts: To Yanmar or Not, which has some parallels to your case and yours is probably a more compelling case for a repower.

Yes you could rebuild those 4-53s for a quarter of the cost of new JDs and they might live another 20,000 hours (how long did the current engines live?). But they still will be old, smoky, noisy, shaky and fuel inefficient. None of which will be true with new JDs.

But consider the Lugger version of these engines. Some think that Lugger does a better job of marinization than JD.

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Old 12-06-2014, 10:12 PM   #7
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I would also consider how long you will keep her, you won't get any more as a selling price for new compared to a rebuild.
Very good point, and like most things, it usually comes down to budget or resale value.

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Yes you could rebuild those 4-53s for a quarter of the cost of new JDs and they might live another 20,000 hours (how long did the current engines live?). But they still will be old, smoky, noisy, shaky and fuel inefficient. None of which will be true with new JDs.
David
Out of frame rebuilt 4-53s, overhauled trannies - those will keep your boat going way longer than you'll most likely own the boat. Slightly higher fuel consumption means nothing compared the extra 20k-30k to repower.

Interesting dilemma, let us know which way you decide and why. Cheers.
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Old 12-07-2014, 12:20 PM   #8
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I'm currently shopping for boats and I would pay more for low hour, relatively new JD engines than I would for old technology, newly rebuilt Detroits.

Just an opinion from a shopper.
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:25 PM   #9
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Switch out more involved than you may think

It will cost about $6000 per engine to inframe those 453's. That's you not lifting a hand. You can probably just replace your heads and get many more hours of use, probably for less than $1500 an engine. you can have the plenum removed and check the rings and bore at the same time as you replace the heads. That will give you a pair of engines that will be reliable with the caveat that there will be belts, hoses, impellers and such that will fail over time.
If you go the JD route you are looking at somewhere near 25-30 k per engine with someone else doing the work. You will need new engine mounts and controls, new gauges and probably dash panels , and a new mounting system for your hydraulic pump for your stabilizers and new hoses. Fuel lines probably as well. The shafts will have to cut or lengthened and depending on reduction the props re-pitched or replaced. Replacement props about 3500k each. Exhaust system will have to be re-engineered as well. Removing the engines will require removing carpet from the salon and removing the peninsula cabinet. On the plus side you will have the opportunity to clean and repaint your bilges go over bilge pumps and get rid of old unused stuff that's been lurking in there for 30 years or so. If your generators are original now is the time to replace them.
One of the things about the Detroit's that is under rated is the reliability of these old engines, heat exchangers , manifolds , raw water pumps, circulating pumps, starters and alternators. Mine are original almost forty years old. 453's while noisy are velvet smooth, no shake at idle. I've thrashed this over and over myself. you can buy a life time supply of fuel for the difference, go around the world once with all expenses paid. I think the JD's will be quieter and more fuel efficient, maybe more reliable, maybe.
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:39 PM   #10
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It will cost about $6000 per engine to inframe those 453's. That's you not lifting a hand. You can probably just replace your heads and get many more hours of use, probably for less than $1500 an engine. you can have the plenum removed and check the rings and bore at the same time as you replace the heads. That will give you a pair of engines that will be reliable with the caveat that there will be belts, hoses, impellers and such that will fail over time.
If you go the JD route you are looking at somewhere near 25-30 k per engine with someone else doing the work. You will need new engine mounts and controls, new gauges and probably dash panels , and a new mounting system for your hydraulic pump for your stabilizers and new hoses. Fuel lines probably as well. The shafts will have to cut or lengthened and depending on reduction the props re-pitched or replaced. Replacement props about 3500k each. Exhaust system will have to be re-engineered as well. Removing the engines will require removing carpet from the salon and removing the peninsula cabinet. On the plus side you will have the opportunity to clean and repaint your bilges go over bilge pumps and get rid of old unused stuff that's been lurking in there for 30 years or so. If your generators are original now is the time to replace them.
One of the things about the Detroit's that is under rated is the reliability of these old engines, heat exchangers , manifolds , raw water pumps, circulating pumps, starters and alternators. Mine are original almost forty years old. 453's while noisy are velvet smooth, no shake at idle. I've thrashed this over and over myself. you can buy a life time supply of fuel for the difference, go around the world once with all expenses paid. I think the JD's will be quieter and more fuel efficient, maybe more reliable, maybe.
Excellent post.
More than likely the list of items that will get replaced will be larger than what is listed.
I bet the cost if sold after repower will recoup less than 25% of the "investment" in new engines.
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:50 PM   #11
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For what it's worth and if you don't already know... There is roughly a .5 gallon per hour fuel consumption increase between the JD 4045TFM75 Tier ll and the JD 4045TFM85 Tier lll engines.


Edited: Added complete engine identification designation.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:09 PM   #12
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For what it's worth and if you don't already know... There is roughly a .5 gallon per hour fuel consumption increase between the JD 4045 Tier ll and the JD 4045 Tier lll engines.
Just curious is that at WOT and related to greater HP? Where on the power curve is the extra 5 gal? MY curiosity is also peaked because most modern diesels are very close when it comes to fuel consumption and 5 gal/hr is a big bump up. Easily explained at max output due to extra HP. But if you don't use the top 15 or 20 HP no real increase in burn actually I would expect the higher tier engine to be more fuel efficient in general.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:14 PM   #13
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It will cost about $6000 per engine to inframe those 453's. That's you not lifting a hand. You can probably just replace your heads and get many more hours of use, probably for less than $1500 an engine. you can have the plenum removed and check the rings and bore at the same time as you replace the heads. That will give you a pair of engines that will be reliable with the caveat that there will be belts, hoses, impellers and such that will fail over time.
If you go the JD route you are looking at somewhere near 25-30 k per engine with someone else doing the work. You will need new engine mounts and controls, new gauges and probably dash panels , and a new mounting system for your hydraulic pump for your stabilizers and new hoses. Fuel lines probably as well. The shafts will have to cut or lengthened and depending on reduction the props re-pitched or replaced. Replacement props about 3500k each. Exhaust system will have to be re-engineered as well. Removing the engines will require removing carpet from the salon and removing the peninsula cabinet. On the plus side you will have the opportunity to clean and repaint your bilges go over bilge pumps and get rid of old unused stuff that's been lurking in there for 30 years or so. If your generators are original now is the time to replace them.
One of the things about the Detroit's that is under rated is the reliability of these old engines, heat exchangers , manifolds , raw water pumps, circulating pumps, starters and alternators. Mine are original almost forty years old. 453's while noisy are velvet smooth, no shake at idle. I've thrashed this over and over myself. you can buy a life time supply of fuel for the difference, go around the world once with all expenses paid. I think the JD's will be quieter and more fuel efficient, maybe more reliable, maybe.

Yes, its not an easy decision. But if it has JD's in it it will sell a lot faster as well as for a bit more money.

A guy above said he would pay more for one with a JD repower. I would go further - I would not consider a boat with Detroit's in it. And that will be a growing trend amongst buyers in the future. Its not that they are that terribly bad, its just that there are lots to boats out there to choose from.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:23 PM   #14
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Just curious is that at WOT and related to greater HP? Where on the power curve is the extra 5 gal? MY curiosity is also peaked because most modern diesels are very close when it comes to fuel consumption and 5 gal/hr is a big bump up. Easily explained at max output due to extra HP. But if you don't use the top 15 or 20 HP no real increase in burn actually I would expect the higher tier engine to be more fuel efficient in general.
It was 0.5 gph not 5. I'm guessing that is at WOT. As far as Tier III goes, it is interesting that to maintain HP output JD took the 8.2l engine to 9.0l, and the 12.5l was taken to 13.5l capacity. Whereas the 4.5l and 6.8l engines stayed the same capacity. Despite the high pressure common rail nicety there is clearly some serious power penalty to include all the extra low emission stuff. So yes, a bit extra fuel use in the Tier III 4045 will occur to counter the higher parasitic losses.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:45 PM   #15
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Just curious is that at WOT and related to greater HP? Where on the power curve is the extra 5 gal? MY curiosity is also peaked because most modern diesels are very close when it comes to fuel consumption and 5 gal/hr is a big bump up. Easily explained at max output due to extra HP. But if you don't use the top 15 or 20 HP no real increase in burn actually I would expect the higher tier engine to be more fuel efficient in general.
If my memory serves me correctly the roughly .5 gal per hour increase is at an engine load of about 35%. I have the PDF brochure of the new JD 4045TFM85 Tier lll (M2 rating at 125hp) if anyone would like me to send them a copy (This brochure was impossible to find on the internet, at least it was when I was searching for it. Thanks to Greg Light at Cascade Engine Center for sending me the brochure)
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:50 PM   #16
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My vote is to rebuild in place. You could do a lot of cruising with the money saved. Plus probably 75% or so not recoverable on sale.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:30 PM   #17
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4 slips down on our dock our friend replaced his with JDs not sure the size I think his hatteras is a 54

pardon the pun he spent a boat load of money

all I can say as a guest on his beauty is I am amazed how quit they are
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:07 PM   #18
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For what it's worth and if you don't already know... There is roughly a .5 gallon per hour fuel consumption increase between the JD 4045TFM75 Tier ll and the JD 4045TFM85 Tier lll engines.


Edited: Added complete engine identification designation.

According to the JD data sheets and M1 rating:

  • The TFM75 burns 5.8 gph at 2400 RPM while producing 107 hp.
  • The TFM85 burns 5.7 gph at 2400 RPM while producing 100 hp.
Seems the same to me. The older TFM 75 data is not quite translatable but seems much the same for fuel burn at the M2 rating
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:12 PM   #19
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The 453's have a sinusitis burn rate.
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:33 PM   #20
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I love the old DDs, especially the 4-53s. But I will say if you dont care about the costs new JDs would be the way to go. Except, the 4-53 can be and has been converted over to DDEC. Why is beyond me but if you desire new computer controlled power they can do it. They have several other indearing features only available to DDs, like 270 amp gear driven 24 volt alternators, 7E series injectors that basically eliminate transom soot, almost no rubber hose on the cooling side, cheap parts world wide, easy to repair/make run by us, will run when others or even it should not, etc.
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