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Old 02-20-2016, 04:51 PM   #241
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Solar Panels

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Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
John, It sounds like your boat would be a great candidate for solar to bridge the gap in power production. Are you considering it as a component to your vessel?
Solar panels are not something we are considering at this time. Mostly because our life style (at least the five years) does not include more than 10% of the time on the hook. We prefer to cruise all day to the harbor, secure a slip and possibly find a nice restaurant for dinner before returning to the boat for the night.

I will stress again our process that goes into building boats is to be honest with ourselves on how we plan to use the boat before investing in "stuff" and "equipment" that is not require.

If a boater/buyer is fortunate to have deep pockets and doesn't mind spending money then they can order everything on their wish list, the builder will love them.

We had everything on the last N40 and never used some of the equipment including the generator. I think we sold that boat with 10 hours total time on the generator and those hours were mostly just to run it since we know not to let machinery sit too long.

Great discussion.

John
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Old 02-20-2016, 04:54 PM   #242
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John - You two are high budget minimalists. Interesting combo. I enjoy reading this thread.
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Old 02-20-2016, 06:12 PM   #243
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We have 8 6V deep cycle batteries as a main battery bank and have no generator other than a portable ( that i use rarely and actually don't like it)
We have no need for A/C but still have thought about adding a generator for those 4-5 nights on the hook or at a State Park.
After boating last Summer with friends who have a Nordic Tug 34 and who added an Efoy Fuel Cel, I was sold on the idea. No noise, runs all night, easy install and about half the price of a new generator. Another thing I like is that if we change boats it would be an easy un-install.
Efoy Comfort Fuel Cells.
Thoughts?
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Old 02-20-2016, 06:34 PM   #244
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As most people know we are taking a slightly different path on this boat and not installing a generator at this time. This decision to simplify things obviously resulted in a little more thought process into electrical power management and batteries. Realizing we have the basic's including; main engine with alternator, inverter to provide A/C power and shore power hook-ups while at the dock we have all the electrical power we really need "90% of the time". This leaves the remaining 10% of the time when we are on the hook and dependent on batteries alone.

<snip>

What do you think?
John
I really like your thinking and where you are going with the design/execution on this boat...

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Two words: Air Conditioning

I think those two words make any push toward eliminating generators very regional.

Refrigeration and freezers are secondary. Also, washers, dryers, dishwashers and hot water.

<snip>

For every trend there seems to be a counter. We are going to LED lighting and greatly reducing consumption. Meanwhile we're adding more and more electronics and computer, phone and television (and stereo) equipment, and appliances.
Excellent points!

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As BandB says, air conditioning is a primary driver for the need of a genny. IIRC, you live in Southern California. I have a daughter who lives on the coast around LA and they have had no need for AC in their residences. I don't recall if you even ordered AC with your boat. Not having AC would certainly make it less complex and less costly too. Other appliances like the frig, the freezer, hot water heater, coffee pots and computer equipment are also power hogs.


<Snip>
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the profile of how you plan to use the boat. <snip>
That last statement is the simplest, true summary on this...

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Thanks for for feedback and thoughts. To answer a few questions, yes we did option for two reverse cycle A/C / Heater systems. Despite having the boat dock in San Diego (Average year round temperature of 68 degrees) we have noticed a warming trend the past few years with temperatures reaching upper 80's and even low 90's on the water. For those few occasions the A/C is worth having to make the weekend that much more enjoyable. We honestly used the heaters more than A/C out here and find the small portable West Marine heaters work fine in the small rooms. Since we only anchor out about 10% of the time (our life style includes spending most "nights" in a slip) we can handle a few warm days without A/C.
<snip>
John
AC was not on my list at all when shopping for our current SoCal boat. However, I have to admit, we used the CRAP out of ours last year, as it was warmer than I ever recall all summer at the docks in San Diego. SO, in relation to the current topic, I guess the generator/inverter argument is truly based on the number of days you think you'll be at anchor and can't sleep due to heat/humidity. For our day tripping, island anchoring, mostly dockside use, I almost NEVER run our generator. That said, In my size boat (35' - 38'), for the Initial cost, Maintenance, weight, space, SoCal location, etc., I would rather it not have a "marine" AC unit at all, and just purchase one of the excellent small portable household ones and exit the exhaust out a porthole. After the couple months of need on the boat to cool the Salon during the day, stateroom at night... take it home to the garage until next summer.

My dream boat is WAY simpler than my current! Single diesel. No fixed expensive Genset. Small Portable AC. Small portable gas (or propane!) generator. Fit in a 40' slip. I am truly envious of what you are doing here. I would be honored to meet/visit you here once she arrives!

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John - You two are high budget minimalists. Interesting combo. I enjoy reading this thread.
Me too!!
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Old 02-20-2016, 07:00 PM   #245
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During my refit I ditched two generators. At one point I was considering installing a new Northern Lights but decided I did not need A/C so therefore did not need a genny.

What I ended up with is 1820 W of solar, 2 x 200 A alternators and a Honda 2000 that I rarely use. Obviously cooking is propane. My house bank is 1284 amp hours, made up of 6 x Odyssey PC 1800 AGM batteries. They can tolerate deep discharge (80% discharge) so usable AH capacity is higher than you might have thought.

I am typically getting 500 AH per day from the solar. However, 2 of the panels get quite a bit of shading so I am looking to relocate them. Then I should get over 600 AH per day.

With the large alternators a couple of hours engine run-time can put in the same amount as solar. So unless I am spending quite a few days anchored in the same location the house bank is easy to keep fully charged, without using the Honda.

A good test of how it is working overall is 'what would I do different next time'?

1. I would install a 5000W Victron inverter/charger instead of the 3000W one I have. This would obviate the need to do any AC power management at all. I have inadvertently tripped out the 3000W unit by drawing too much only a few times, and usually just when using the microwave whilst some other high AC loads are running. Its manageable, but I would upgrade capacity.

2. Expand the house bank, probably by just 2 more PC1800's, but maybe more. Instead of 12V I would opt for 24V, assuming engines, windlass etc were also 24V. I might even consider having the house bank at 48V. The higher the voltage the better in term of cable runs (size of cable, voltage drop) and fuse amperage rating.

3. Expand the solar capacity. I used standard 260 W domestic panels on a custom hardtop. All good but quite a lot of weight up high. Next time I would use the semi-flexible panels, even though they are more expensive per watt, as they could be mounted into a bimini with much less overall weight. I would also look to making the bimini 'double layered', with one layer being able to slide out at anchor to double the surface area used for solar collection. It would likely need some removable bracing in case of wind gusts but it should be achievable.
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Old 02-21-2016, 12:52 PM   #246
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Battery Charging

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We have 8 6V deep cycle batteries as a main battery bank and have no generator other than a portable ( that i use rarely and actually don't like it)
We have no need for A/C but still have thought about adding a generator for those 4-5 nights on the hook or at a State Park.
After boating last Summer with friends who have a Nordic Tug 34 and who added an Efoy Fuel Cel, I was sold on the idea. No noise, runs all night, easy install and about half the price of a new generator. Another thing I like is that if we change boats it would be an easy un-install.
Efoy Comfort Fuel Cells.
Thoughts?
I just reviewed the Efoy web-site and found this product interesting. I like the size and simple installation. I do see they use Methanol fuel cells which I believe are more flammable than diesel fuel and something to consider. As it is we are not super crazy about having propane tanks aboard and looked long and hard at an electric stove top to remove the propane but the required electrical power killed that concept for this boat. It will be interesting to see if this system catches on in the US boating industry. Thanks for letting everyone know about this alternative technology.

John
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:05 PM   #247
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Comfort versus Basics

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Two words: Air Conditioning

I think those two words make any push toward eliminating generators very regional.

Refrigeration and freezers are secondary. Also, washers, dryers, dishwashers and hot water.

I think there's long been a desire by some to do without generators and the greater possibilities of solar power make it easier to accomplish. On the other hand there are trends running very counter to eliminating generators, such as using PTO's for thrusters and using Gyro Stabilizers.

For every trend there seems to be a counter. We are going to LED lighting and greatly reducing consumption. Meanwhile we're adding more and more electronics and computer, phone and television (and stereo) equipment, and appliances.
The balancing act of comfort versus simplicity will always be a challenge and in the end a personal choice. Anything we can do to minimize electrical power consumption will only help simplify our lives aboard. Your decision to replace existing lighting with LED is becoming a common trend even on larger boats with plenty of generator power. Another trend we have seen over the past few years on the Nordhavn Owners site is to ditch their high power consuming Sub-zero refrigerators and freezers for more economical electrical consumption brands. It appears even some with deep pockets are seeing the benefits of reducing their electrical power consumption footprint. OK, now I'm starting to sound like an environmentalist.

John

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Old 02-21-2016, 01:59 PM   #248
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OK, now I'm starting to sound like an environmentalist.

John

John
Environmental benefits only come into common use when they're easy, don't inconvenience excessively, and save money. LED bulbs are an easy one with the benefit of not having to change as often. We've converted our home as well, and adjusted to a color we don't like as well as our favorite incandescent. Solar works for some and not for others. We are comfort creatures so not going to surrender temperature and climate control. We've lived our entire lives in air conditioning and in climates that required it.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:35 PM   #249
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Scott and I have been discussing different types of batteries, quantity, installation location and even when to have them installed. I found it interesting I'm spending the same amount of time discussing batteries as we did on electronics. While at the Boat Show a few weeks ago, Scott had me look at an installation the yard performed on a new 38PH which included a very nice, five battery bank metal rack located just aft of the engine. It was positioned on the boats center line (smart thinking) providing easy access and eliminating the need for ballast. I walked away impressed with this installation and thought it would be perfect for our boat but still not sure about the added costs and number of batteries. This was going to be a $4K+ option.

What do you think?
I assume as standard equipment, you would be getting a start battery and two house batteries. So, for an additional $4K+ option, you would get a metal rack with 5 bank of batteries. How many batteries total can fit in the rack? Are they providing the batteries or just the rack with battery trays? What size battery fits in the rack? AGM batteries? Could you post the picture of the one the yard completed?

If you are just going from dock to dock, it seems likely you will have more batteries than you will need with this type of arrangement or a lot of empty space in the rack.
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:06 PM   #250
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I wonder if they can eventually create this type of unit to run on diesel instead of a specialized fuel? Even kerosene is more readily available especially in 3rd world countries.

How does it price against just adding high efficiency solar panels?
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Old 02-21-2016, 11:16 PM   #251
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Except for aircon, it seems that the single largest energy hog is refrigeration. Here we use European appliances 50Hz/250v and the new digital inverter technology is incredible when it comes to efficiency. Even clothes washers have come out, 7-8kg capacity, drawing only 700 watts with no motor startup load.

Running an entire boat on renewable sources, with an occasional run of the main engine for a few hours (engine in reverse, pulling against the anchor, for a minimal load) it is entirely feasible to ditch the genset. I think Insequent has the right idea and I'm doing the same with my current design, although leaving a place for the genset just in case aircon becomes a necessity.

I've been out of America for many years now, so has this new technology reached the JC Penny's and Home Depots yet?
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Old 02-26-2016, 08:41 PM   #252
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Progress Report

We just completed week 16 and looking forward to a progress report from Scott who I believe is visiting the yard now that the Chinese New Year is over. From what I understand this holiday results in many businesses closing or close to shutting down as many employees will travel back to their homelands. This is just one example of what may occur during a new build and nothing to stress over. We are anxious to confirm the yard understands out latest round of changes to the salon / galley and view their updated drawings. I have to admit I was very impressed with the level of detail and precision the yard put into their first set of drawing based off my design using Excel (don't ask). Thats all for today. I will write little more about over the weekend as time permits.

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Old 02-27-2016, 07:43 AM   #253
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I'll be very interested to see how the build schedule works out in practice. Based on the pictures you posted the first week in Feb, you had a hull, bulkheads, and some floor stringers, and perhaps some interior partitions. It's now the beginning of March, and CNY consumed something like 10 days of Feb, so by now you can expect some more progress, but not a huge amount.

You expect to see the boat boat in May after 4 weeks of transport, which means it needs to be complete and ready to ship by the end of April.

In short, 2 months left to complete the boat.

You've got much more experience than I do building boats, but I will be truly amazed if it's done in 2 months. If I were a betting man, I'd project 4-6 months until it's ready to ship. But maybe I'm tainted by Nordhavn's longer build times.
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Old 02-27-2016, 02:10 PM   #254
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Schedule Expectations

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I'll be very interested to see how the build schedule works out in practice. Based on the pictures you posted the first week in Feb, you had a hull, bulkheads, and some floor stringers, and perhaps some interior partitions. It's now the beginning of March, and CNY consumed something like 10 days of Feb, so by now you can expect some more progress, but not a huge amount.

You expect to see the boat boat in May after 4 weeks of transport, which means it needs to be complete and ready to ship by the end of April.

In short, 2 months left to complete the boat.

You've got much more experience than I do building boats, but I will be truly amazed if it's done in 2 months. If I were a betting man, I'd project 4-6 months until it's ready to ship. But maybe I'm tainted by Nordhavn's longer build times.
Twistedtree, your observations are spot on and it will be interesting to see how things progress the next few weeks. As with any boat (or even house) once the hull or foundation is completed, progress tends to pick up since you can have more crews working different areas in parallel. The next big milestone for us will be installation of the engine and completion of the flooring. Once that's completed things can really speed up. We are fortunate there are not many boats ahead of us but there are a number of new orders behind us (I think people are starting to see the real value this boat offers) so our boat should be their primary focus. This yard appears to be very efficient and watching previous boats they can really move quickly.

I remember on the two Nordhavn 40's the "one year" schedule had a few months of "cushion" built in and even those boats took a little longer than planned. Bottom line is not to stress over a few weeks or even a month of schedule slip (if it occurs).

The other plus side we have with this boat is the commissioning process. On the N40's they were about 4 - 6 weeks each (ouch) compared to one week (less electronics and soft goods) for the H38PH. We will get into this much more when the time comes.

Scott and I discussed possibly putting the boat in the San Diego Boat Show in June so there is a little incentive for everyone to see if we can make it happen. Anyone in the southern California area interested in seeing the boat is welcome anytime. We will likely keep the boat at Sunroad Marina in San Diego.

John
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Old 02-27-2016, 02:27 PM   #255
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Love the H38PH !

Congratulations on your build! I am vicariously thrilled by your process.

I was on an H38PH at the Seattle Boat Show, and loved the boat. It was my favorite single cabin boat by far. The spaces were amazing: spacious, comfortable, excellent fit and finish.

One thing I haven't seen any information on is speed and fuel burn with the standard engine. Has Helmsman put out something that provides such data?

Again, congratulations. I am green with envy.
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Old 02-27-2016, 03:18 PM   #256
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I remember on the two Nordhavn 40's the "one year" schedule had a few months of "cushion" built in and even those boats took a little longer than planned. Bottom line is not to stress over a few weeks or even a month of schedule slip (if it occurs).

The other plus side we have with this boat is the commissioning process. On the N40's they were about 4 - 6 weeks each (ouch) compared to one week (less electronics and soft goods) for the H38PH. We will get into this much more when the time comes.
The Nordhavn build and commissioning process is just extraordinarily long for a production/semi-custom boat in their size range.
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Old 02-28-2016, 10:51 AM   #257
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Engine Selection

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Congratulations on your build! I am vicariously thrilled by your process.

I was on an H38PH at the Seattle Boat Show, and loved the boat. It was my favorite single cabin boat by far. The spaces were amazing: spacious, comfortable, excellent fit and finish.

One thing I haven't seen any information on is speed and fuel burn with the standard engine. Has Helmsman put out something that provides such data?

Again, congratulations. I am green with envy.
Thank you for your post and congratulations.

Regarding engine selection the Cummins 220hp is standard as it is on other popular semi-displacement trawlers in the 38' - 45' range. This engine will push the boat at displacement hull speeds (6 knots) all day and use only around 3GPH. Top end will be around 9 - 10 knots and you will burn much more fuel. We selected the 380hp Cummins (same block size) for a slightly higher top end of 12 knots for the rare occasions we need to beat nightfall, a strong current and resale. There seems to be a trend in the SD world of boats that you need a bigger engine when in reality you don't.

I should mention that we optioned not get trim tabs which would provide one extra knot of speed at top end. Out reasoning was we don't need the speed and desire to keep the boat simple.

Thanks
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Old 02-28-2016, 11:31 AM   #258
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Regarding engine selection the Cummins 220hp is standard as it is on other popular semi-displacement trawlers in the 38' - 45' range. This engine will push the boat at displacement hull speeds (6 knots) all day and use only around 3GPH. Top end will be around 9 - 10 knots and you will burn much more fuel. We selected the 380hp Cummins (same block size) for a slightly higher top end of 12 knots for the rare occasions we need to beat nightfall, a strong current and resale. There seems to be a trend in the SD world of boats that you need a bigger engine when in reality you don't.
I had lusted after the Helmsman 43PH. Like the 38, it appears to have thoughtful design at a reasonable (?) price. I just can't swing the cost of a new boat.

Do you know if the higher HP Cummins engine will give you the same fuel efficiency at displacement speeds as the lower HP engine? My understanding on those Cummins is that the block is the same, just the ECM and some peripheral components of the engine are different in the higher HP versions.
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Old 02-28-2016, 11:46 AM   #259
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I had lusted after the Helmsman 43PH. Like the 38, it appears to have thoughtful design at a reasonable (?) price. I just can't swing the cost of a new boat.

Do you know if the higher HP Cummins engine will give you the same fuel efficiency at displacement speeds as the lower HP engine? My understanding on those Cummins is that the block is the same, just the ECM and some peripheral components of the engine are different in the higher HP versions.
The larger Cummins should provide very similar fuel burn at displacement speeds. While running older diesels far below thier rated HP is not a good idea it is less a factor with today's engines thus you can run at slower speeds for longer periods. I would still run any diesel at WOT for a few minutes every 8 hours like we did with the Luggers on the N40.
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Old 02-28-2016, 02:36 PM   #260
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A look at Engine Rooms - Part I

Looking back at my posts I see that have not spoke about engine rooms in detail so here we go. While many readers will think "this guy is hung up on ER access" I will admit "I'm hung up with ER room access". I think it comes from my aviation background and appreciating the importance of having everything working correctly before taking off. I view boating the same way and like to play it safe.

I'm a strong believer in preventative maintenance and regular inspcetions as a way to spot trouble before it ruins your day. This thinking became even more important with the single engine Nordhavn's and the plans to travel far and away (we never really got there). I learned very quickly with those boats that there was so much going on in the engine room that hourly engine room checks just made sense and is something I will always do.

For those thinking this is overkill I will provide one real life experience where hourly checks made a significant difference and under similar but potentially worse conditions could have resulted in preventing near disaster. A few years back Mary and I were taking one of the N40's from SD to Dana Point (60 mile run) for warranty work. It was a beautiful day and we were about 5 hours into the trip cruising long at 6 knots on AP when I told Mary I was going down below and perform the hourly engine room check. We have a system worked out that "if" she needs me back upstairs quickly she just throttles back and I'll know something up. I had entered the guest room where the small engine room door was located and looked through the window to see what appeared to be exhaust or light smoke. Never a good thing to see 20 miles off the coastline. I felt the door which was not hot, didn't see any flames and everything was running fine. I ran back up to the pilothouse and told Mary we may have a problem and be ready to call for help. I returned to the engine room door, looked inside and determined it wasn't smoke but a haze of sort. I cracked open the door and nothing got worse so with a wet towel on my face I entered the room an started to investigate. I quickly realized we had an exhaust leak at the dry stack exhaust elbow. Breathing some relief I figured as long as the engine was receiving enough fresh air we should be able to continue the next four hours to DP. I ran back upstairs and told Mary what I discovered before returning to guest room and opening the two port hole windows along with the engine room door. The flow of fresh air was enough to keep the engine room from filling up with exhaust fumes. I then opened the salon aft door and windows to maximize fresh air. We got lucky and completed the rest of the trip without incident.

So what would have happened if I wasn't performing hourly checks? Would the engine room filled with exhaust and the engine have died? If the Lugger went out the wing engine would also be out of commission starving for fresh air. What if it was the beginning of a fire? Catching it early could have saved our lives. Remember everything was fine just an hour prior during my last check.

While the above is one example, I have many more related to checking and monitoring temperatures, vibrations, sounds and smell that can only be accomplished in person in the engine room.

OK, I have to run now but will pick up this post later today..........

John
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