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Old 02-07-2016, 08:44 AM   #201
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I appreciate your very well thought out approach to this build. Ive been accused of over-thinking and spending more time than most deem necessary on major decisions from time to time. No need for buyers regret when you're confident that you've thoroughly evaluated all feasible options and made the best decision based on your specific wants and needs.

Interesting electronics discussion. I recently updated to the new Furuno Touch screens and have been very happy with them. I initially considered Simrad as well but my supplier quit carrying Simrad mainly due to the number of returns and the lack of responsiveness from the company. He indicated that over 3 month period last year, he had a 40% return rate on the Simrad screens. Enough said. Garmin has some very nice offerings as well but at the end of the day, I decided to stick with the company I was most familiar with and had the most confidence in.

Best of luck with your build. Looking forward to following it through to completion.

Mike
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Old 02-07-2016, 11:12 AM   #202
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On that...can we know what your present boat is BandB, or is it classified for some reason..? Just that I have often felt it hard to fully understand your posts, not knowing from whence you come, be it large, very large, or small. There's no judgment on here re boat size, you know...
We have several boats, from 39' up. From center console to Riva sport boat to 130'. Correction. From 10' on up. We love our RIB's.
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Old 02-07-2016, 11:15 AM   #203
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it should work just fine in part due to the high ceiling.
What is the ceiling height?
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Old 02-07-2016, 11:24 AM   #204
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We have several boats, from 39' up. From center console to Riva sport boat to 130'. Correction. From 10' on up. We love our RIB's.
BB - Got Picts? What two (larger than 10' RIB's) were/are your and Girl-B's favorites??
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:20 PM   #205
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Overthinking or Researching

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Originally Posted by haneyrm View Post
I appreciate your very well thought out approach to this build. Ive been accused of over-thinking and spending more time than most deem necessary on major decisions from time to time. No need for buyers regret when you're confident that you've thoroughly evaluated all feasible options and made the best decision based on your specific wants and needs.

Interesting electronics discussion. I recently updated to the new Furuno Touch screens and have been very happy with them.

Mike
Mike, thanks for your post. When it comes to a significant investment like the purchase of a boat,that will un-doubtfully be asked to perform multiple missions requiring multiple complex systems, the opportunity to get it wrong is closer then we think. I believe people should take their time and do their research before making the commitment to help keep the odds of getting right in your corner. I researched full displacement (FD) trawlers for four years (2000 - 2004) before starting out building our first trawler which I believe I got right even though Mary ended up with a different conclusion. Just goes to show that even the best planning can go wrong.

This reminds me when we had our second N40 we for sale and I received an email from a gentlemen from Europe advising he would be interested in trading his newer N47 for our smaller boat (plus cash). He explained his family didn't care for the "go slow" speed of the boat and he needed something smaller he could use by himself. His boat was outfitted very well indicating he put a lot of thought into the planning stages and it was unfortunate his plans didn't materialize but likely not his fault. Boating, more than most other forms of transportation, entertainment or sport can be a tricky balancing act, especially when there is more than one person in the equation. Taking a little extra time to get it right (or as close as possible) may be the best investment a person can make.

Thanks for the input on the electronics, I'm starting to see a trend here and told Mary just yesterday I should likely follow the "if its not broke don't fix it" analogy regarding our positive experience with Furuno.

John
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:28 PM   #206
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Tenders - any thoughts?

One of the great things about TF is the interactive discussion on various topics. So why not start one on this thread about "tenders" and what people think works best? For the next boat we are thinking about a 9' Caribe solid hull with small outboard. We had a Caribe prior and had no real complaints. I like their wide beams and 9" long is all we need for the two of us. We will store the boat up top on the aft beck and add a davit to launch the boat. The other type of dingy I'm looking at is more of a traditional rowing style boat but with a small OB like the Whitetail. Beautiful looking boat with great lines and teak trim. We plan to use the dingy often for sunset cruises in the marina and around the bay. As you can see we have yet another decision on the horizon. Any thoughts?

John
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Old 02-07-2016, 03:44 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by haneyrm View Post
Interesting electronics discussion. I recently updated to the new Furuno Touch screens and have been very happy with them. I initially considered Simrad as well but my supplier quit carrying Simrad mainly due to the number of returns and the lack of responsiveness from the company. He indicated that over 3 month period last year, he had a 40% return rate on the Simrad screens. Enough said.

Mike
Well, I will add more then

Our Lowrance HDS7/GenII on our previous boat had a failure of the screen. As previously mentioned, support was good - but had I known this was more than a one-off issue, perhaps I would have gone in a different direction.
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Old 02-07-2016, 03:57 PM   #208
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BB - Got Picts? What two (larger than 10' RIB's) were/are your and Girl-B's favorites??
No pics...no favorites. We love the RIB's too. Love fast. But then we like long range cruising. Our favorite is the one we're on today. I will disclose the one that fits more closely to this site although still rather a poor match.

We struggled and struggled deciding on a loop boat. A lot of things influenced that. We were close to a Hatteras 60 but it never turned us on, plus the lower helm was an issue with them. We considered a Sea Ray L Series but then became aware of the problems even those who love them have. We came close to a custom build, a new version of the old Pacific Mariner 65. We were strongly considering Grand Banks but then all the turmoil of the company led us away. The boat we would have selected is no longer offered.

We initially said 50', then said 60' was the absolute maximum but then over time we travel with more people.

We considered everything from KK (too slow) to Fleming (too slow although faster than KK) to Coastal Craft (too aluminum) to Beneteau to Princess. If our Riva had a flybridge it would have been perfect and still was tempting but not for the Loop and all the Inland Rivers.

We heard all the statements about what is too large, docking issues, everything so we checked marinas over every piece of the loop to see how much was old wive's tales and how much was a real issue. We talked to people who have looped with everything from 30' to a 72' Hatteras. We found that there are many marinas that can't handle larger but there is virtually no area, no hundred mile run, where there isn't a marina that can.

Some aspects that we did define along the way. Must cruise at a minimum of 20 knots, must have a flybridge, must have galley up. Must have at least 3 staterooms. Must have two helms. Must carry a decent sized RIB. Must be a company we trust. Many other things.

Now, we looked briefly at Sunseeker. Manhattan is their flybridge moniker. A Manhattan 63 had a lot of good attributes but galley down so no. They like Riva just didn't have anything that worked...until

Sunseeker introduced the Manhattan 65. Exact same boat as the 63 except galley up. Yes, I know, crazy that a 63 and 65 are identical hulls. Still had some issues that we'll have to get corrected, primarily that the arch won't clear with all the electronics so have to hinge it. Also, not our favorite electronic options. I hate buying and immediately making changes but necessary in this case. So, that's the one on the way.

This boat will start the loop and get to the TN River. Then stop for a year or two to cruise the TN, the Cumberland, the Ohio and the Missouri. Then home and start it again. Maybe every 4 or 5 years. Hitting the places missed the first time or more time in the same places. More time on each of the great lakes. Always starting in NY as early May as things are open and safe. Always south from Chicago just in time in September. Very little time on the East coast or Gulf as we cruise them regularly. It will spend more winters docked on the TN rather than in South Florida.

We love all types of boating. We lived until 2012 on Lake Norman in NC and had runabouts. Our last boat there was a 30' Cobalt bowrider. It did have 50+ knot speed. Seems silly on a lake that size but we liked it. We didn't regularly run that fast. We like small towns and large cities when cruising. New places. We only like to travel by boat. We love Apalachicola and New York City. We like Atlantis in Nassau and we like the Exumas. We loved Alaska and we loved Bocas del Toro, Panama. You better have a boat there as it's so far away from the rest of civilization.

Oh and Girl B said her favorite was a Cigarette. But then it would be just for an hour or two. Even she admits 135 mph in a 50' boat is a bit too much for her. We just happened to see a show on their history and boats on television the other night.

The one we get out in when it's just the two of us is her "Baby Riva" as she calls it. 44' open boat. WOT 40 knots, cruise 35 knots. Great for running to Miami for lunch or the day or to West Palm. It's never been out of Florida.
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:22 PM   #209
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One of the great things about TF is the interactive discussion on various topics. So why not start one on this thread about "tenders" and what people think works best? For the next boat we are thinking about a 9' Caribe solid hull with small outboard. We had a Caribe prior and had no real complaints. I like their wide beams and 9" long is all we need for the two of us. We will store the boat up top on the aft beck and add a davit to launch the boat. The other type of dingy I'm looking at is more of a traditional rowing style boat but with a small OB like the Whitetail. Beautiful looking boat with great lines and teak trim. We plan to use the dingy often for sunset cruises in the marina and around the bay. As you can see we have yet another decision on the horizon. Any thoughts?

John
We'll be a minority of one on this subject but we love Jet RIB's. They perform great and all the advantages of no propeller. They do require more maintenance than an outboard. Williams makes as small as 9'6" and is introducing a new Mini-Jet this year. The difference is that the current model 285 uses a Textron engine (formerly Weber before the buyout) and the Mini-Jet will use Rotax. It will then weigh only about 440 lbs vs 660 lbs for the model 285. Other lines of jet Ribs use Yamaha engines. Larger jets come with diesel, typically Yanmar.

Aquascan has a 9' with Yamaha. Then there is Carbon Craft starting at 10' and triple the price. The other negative about any jet rib is price. The smallest Williams is just over $30k vs. $15k for a comparable outboard.

We like the safety of no propellers. We also like the way they store as without a long outboard drive they can sit lower and you can get a longer boat in the same space. We also like the ease of running in shallow waters but with the caveat not to run as shallow as you can. Below 2' depth you do risk sucking up debris and even sand into the impeller. So, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Just like beaching an outboard you should probably turn the engine off before you get all the way beached.

Oh and a Williams 285 will run a little over 40 knots lightly loaded. So they're good for exploring at 10 - 30 knots.

Jet tenders are far more popular in Europe than the US. You see a lot of European boats designed with garages built for jets. Avon also sells jet Ribs there but not in the US, at least not officially.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:47 PM   #210
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We have several boats, from 39' up. From center console to Riva sport boat to 130'. Correction. From 10' on up. We love our RIB's.
Ooooookkkk...can I re-phrase that a bit, as still none the wiser really. Which of your many boats is the one you cruise on most, would be the most relevant query I guess. Mainly so we understand the context of your posts a bit better. Hey, if it's the 130' one, well great. We all like more space...

Oh, wait...thanks...you did answer that, but I missed it in post 208, because I jumped it with the above quote. Sorry about that, but thanks very much for that post. A Manhattan 65 eh..? Great boat. Love it. And now I feel like I really know where you and wifey B are coming from, what experience you have had to call on (clearly considerable), and it makes it much easier to grasp what you say.
Good luck with your great loop trip. I'd love to be able to come over and do that. Ain't going to happen...
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:23 AM   #211
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Oh, wait...thanks...you did answer that, but I missed it in post 208, because I jumped it with the above quote. Sorry about that, but thanks very much for that post. A Manhattan 65 eh..? Great boat. Love it. And now I feel like I really know where you and wifey B are coming from, what experience you have had to call on (clearly considerable), and it makes it much easier to grasp what you say.
Good luck with your great loop trip. I'd love to be able to come over and do that. Ain't going to happen...
When you figure it all out then please explain it all to us. We're just boating crazy.

We are both 200 Ton Masters NC, although no need for the licenses, just done for personal fulfillment and knowledge and we'll keep gathering more knowledge and experience. We love boating of all types although prefer not to go slow and find sailing to be too much work. Since we arrived in Florida late summer 2012 we've covered over 50,000 nm on the water. We feel competent in operating a boat but do not have mechanical skills or interest beyond those basic things necessary to get home. That also separates us from most of you here who have that mechanical knowledge and aptitude. We're definitely not DIY'ers. It also means for long range cruising, regardless of boat, we're going to have someone with us who has those skills we don't.
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:23 PM   #212
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B&B, impressive background. Glade you are on TF. Would like to hear more comments and suggestions during this journey.

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Old 02-10-2016, 12:32 PM   #213
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Electronics

Yesterday I spoke with our previous installer of electronics about Simrad and Furuno systems. In the end I think we will stay with Furuno on the new boat. I appreciate everyone's input on this subject. We are still exploring who we will select to perform the installation.

A funny thing happened to us over the weekend that I think will save us some money. We went to the local Verizon store to buy a new phone for Mary and ended up purchasing two wireless speakers that play music from her new phone. While this may not be breaking news for most boaters, we are behind the curve when it comes to the latest technology. I thought if we can download all the music from her phone and move these great sounding speakers around the boat, why spend $5K on Boise Surround Sound system and cut holes everywhere for speakers? At least this will be our going I plan. Has anyone taken a similar path?
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:08 PM   #214
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B&B, impressive background. Glade you are on TF. Would like to hear more comments and suggestions during this journey.

John
Just think you're doing it very systematically to get the right boat for you. I don't care what boat one builds or purchases, someone else will think it was a poor choice. However, I don't judge on the basis of what one chooses, but based on the process.

I see people jumping into trying to purchase by skipping the most important step and that is defining their requirements. You can't evaluate against an unknown target.

We very much enjoy looking at and evaluating in our minds various boats just as a hobby. I'm not in the market for a KK or a Nordhavn or a Helmsman but love to look at what each has to offer and compare and also think of what buyer each fits best. Also, finding your process with Helmsman and Waterline interesting. When all is completed, I would love to read a comparison of building the Helmsman vs. building a Nordhavn and the differences in approach.

I love the conversations we have with Mr. Nordhavn fanatic, Oliver, and some of the philosophical things. One of the biggest is to what extent a semi-custom builder such as Helmsman or Nordhavn should offer equipment choices vs. where they should stick to standards. That impacts the entire commissioning process greatly and determines a level of complexity.

And a simple thought. When should a builder say "no?" I heard one builder say they would never say "no" to a customer. I found that rather scary and said back to them, "But you do understand it's your reputation on the line and even your potential liability?"
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:42 PM   #215
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Build time is approximately six months.
..

The Diesel Ducks build time is around 3-6 years now - so is 6 month a realistic time line?

Do they have a penalty clause in case of late delivery - it proves the builders commitment and organisation when they commit to this.... I might give the Helmsman a try now.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:12 PM   #216
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..

The Diesel Ducks build time is around 3-6 years now - so is 6 month a realistic time line?

Do they have a penalty clause in case of late delivery - it proves the builders commitment and organisation when they commit to this.... I might give the Helmsman a try now.
No, Diesel Duck's build time is probably about a year but you wait in line 2 to 5 years before they start yours. Why they don't increase their capacity, I don't know. However, no company will complain about having more demand than they can fill.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:26 PM   #217
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That still makes it 3-6 years, but that wasn't the point - the point was if Helmsman's 6 month build time is realistic and if there's a penalty clause....I didn't want to highjack the thread, so lets move on.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:37 PM   #218
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My experience does say the build time he's been quoted is reasonable. I don't have the knowledge of Helmsman to know if they'll make it. It's also a responsibility of the buyer to do many things in a timely basis. Even when we had all mechanical and equipment issues specified up front, just things like selection of colors and materials took a lot of time. It seemed like there were hundreds of selections to make. In a way you're making decisions on building a house and furnishing it.

We've had builds that were on schedule every step of the way. However, our latest which is mostly a stock production boat in a high volume factory with very few choices, has been completely unpredictable. More than the build though has been when will they ship it as they try to coordinate so they can send many on one ship. That can mean that one day of build time can turn into two months. Look at Nordhavn as an example. Three boats just arrived a week or so ago in FL. They obviously weren't all three finished on the same day so two of them waited. A day? A week? A month? Six weeks? I have no idea.

So I have learned that shipping becomes a big consideration.
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:50 PM   #219
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Took six month to complete my Coot, beginning from a fully-constructed hull. Kimley says he's bringing a new Coot for display to Alameda this Spring. That version has a new saloon style as well as accessories more designed for liveaboards. Check their website.

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Old 02-10-2016, 08:13 PM   #220
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Took six month to complete my Coot, beginning from a fully-constructed hull. Kimley says he's bringing a new Coot for display to Alameda this Spring. That version has a new saloon style as well as accessories more designed for liveaboards. Check their website.
That was my point, it only takes six months to build a boat that size. The greatest extra time is getting started or at the end, shipping. Other than that it's the efficiencies of the builder.

Now, have to go look at the website.
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