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Old 02-04-2016, 02:58 PM   #181
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Auto Pilot

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Their auto pilots steer well. I never had a problem with that on any boat. But on my most recent attempt I had quite a few interfacing problems among the different simrad AP components. So I dumped the AP too since I had no confidence that Simrad would fix any of it. My issues may have all been related to the FU80 follow up steering controls, and he NSO chart plotter, both of which were new compared to my last Simrad Pilot. But by that time I was done debugging stuff for a company that didn't care.
Interesting note on the AP. We had
Simrad AP tied into Furuno systems on all three Nordies and didn't have any issues except in following seas. I never liked the way our N40's felt loose and squatted in those conditions. This occurred with or without AP. Our search continues.....
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:38 PM   #182
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Interesting note on the AP. We had
Simrad AP tied into Furuno systems on all three Nordies and didn't have any issues except in following seas. I never liked the way our N40's felt loose and squatted in those conditions. This occurred with or without AP. Our search continues.....
Ironic but not surprising that Furuno is able to communicate better with Simrad, than Simrad can. That's part of the beauty to me of Furuno. They've built solid connectivity and interfaces with everyone. From a technological side they've managed to make things simpler. I use to instruct IT to build large fields and lots of them as we never knew what would be needed next or what we'd add on.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:00 PM   #183
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Interesting note on the AP. We had

Simrad AP tied into Furuno systems on all three Nordies and didn't have any issues except in following seas. I never liked the way our N40's felt loose and squatted in those conditions. This occurred with or without AP. Our search continues.....

Following seas are the hardest on any AP, and its very, very difficult to distinguish between the boat's fundamental steering characteristics, AP capabilities, and AP settings without carefully studying a specific boat.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:02 PM   #184
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Following seas are the hardest on any AP, and its very, very difficult to distinguish between the boat's fundamental steering characteristics, AP capabilities, and AP settings without carefully studying a specific boat.
Often one will have to adjust the sensitivity in those situations.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:04 PM   #185
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Ironic but not surprising that Furuno is able to communicate better with Simrad, than Simrad can. That's part of the beauty to me of Furuno. They've built solid connectivity and interfaces with everyone. From a technological side they've managed to make things simpler. I use to instruct IT to build large fields and lots of them as we never knew what would be needed next or what we'd add on.

I generally agree, but Furuno isn't free of communications bugs either. But I agree better than most. I have yet to publish the NavPilot N2K issues, for example, but should get to it soon. I generally like to give vendors generous time to address problems in hopes of reporting fixes along with the problems.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:48 PM   #186
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I generally agree, but Furuno isn't free of communications bugs either. But I agree better than most. I have yet to publish the NavPilot N2K issues, for example, but should get to it soon. I generally like to give vendors generous time to address problems in hopes of reporting fixes along with the problems.
That's when vendors or companies show what they truly are in how they respond to problems. I know some owners of the new Sea Ray L Series who have had all sorts of problems with their electronics and some still not resolved. They have Raymarine.

Anxious to hear of your N2K issues.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:02 PM   #187
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That's when vendors or companies show what they truly are in how they respond to problems.
That is indeed what it's all about. Nobody likes bugs, me included, but I accept that they happen. And as long as vendors take my bug reports seriously, investigate them, and (assuming they really are bugs) fixes them, I'm all good with that. The best that I have encountered, by far, is Rose Point with Coastal Explorer. Maretron is good too, but sometimes takes a little arm twisting to convince the problem is theirs and worth investigating. Simrad/Navico is the worst. The jury is still out on Furuno and Icom, but culturally Japanese engineering companies are very opaque and much slower to respond, so I remain hopeful.

What really ticks me off is when I put a lot of effort into isolating and reproducing a problem, take traces of network traffic, and annotate exactly what's going wrong, and it falls on deaf ears. Rather than shunning a bug presented on a gold platter, a more appropriate response would be "thank you".
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:32 PM   #188
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Your experience of handing it to them on a platter and them not using it reminds me of a GE engineer who had been heavily involved in the design of various Irons. He just no longer worked in a facility with access. So he sent it in with a detailed description. It came back with a note they could find nothing wrong. He did that a second time with the same result. Both times he'd signed his full name. Frustrated now he sent it in with a note that said "Iron no hot." He signed it with just his last name "Wong" even though he was fourth generational US and didn't even speak a word of Chinese. It came back perfectly repaired.
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:17 PM   #189
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90% Rule

While attending the Seattle Boat Show I had the pleasure to meet and speak with a number of boaters who mentioned they knew me from either the Nordhavn Dreamers site, Trawler Forum, or magazine articles we have written. A few folks asked what I thought about different boats and how we decided on our boat. My response was “we use the 90% rule” to help decide. While I plan to write more about this simple process it basically comes down to looking at "who" will be aboard 90% of the time and "how" they honestly plan to use the boat 90% of the time. To do this right you really have to be honest with yourself (and spouse) and leave the dreaming and emotions out of the equation.

Example: for us we know it will only be Mary and I aboard 90% of the time so we don’t need two bedrooms. If we have an overnight guest they can sleep in the large salon sofa with ottomans. They will have their own head off the salon (nice touch on the H38) but if they didn’t, they could use the single head found on many boats under 40’. Our planned use of the boat 90% of the time will be for weekends anchoring out on the bay, day trips along the coastline and coastal harbor trips (averaging 60 miles per day). While we do not require “ocean crossing range” we are pleased to have 400 gallon fuel capacity providing for up to 800 miles range – nice.

With the “who and how” answered, it’s time to look at “where on the boat” you will spend 90% of you time. To accomplish this part of the exercise we list every area on the boat (inside and outside) then list by hours per day (24 hour period) how we will spend time in those areas. This step is performed for both at the dock and while underway. The results (for us) were the pilothouse came out on top followed by the salon / galley then………….. I think you get the picture. Once you have this information you should be in ready to find the right boat. More to follow.......
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:38 PM   #190
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yes, we like the 45
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:12 PM   #191
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Week 13

Well it appears the Chinese New Year has arrived or the yard beat their promise date to remove the boat from the mold. Things are looking up. We now have to insure we complete the balance of our interior design changes with the yards engineers quickly so we are do not impact schedule. We forwarded our "tweaks" to the galley / saloon earlier this week.
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Old 02-06-2016, 12:16 PM   #192
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Week 13 - Update

Below is another nice photo of the boat soon after being released from the mold. I know from experience dealing with composites at work that properly preparing the mold with release agent is critical. Having the part (in the case a boat hull) release easily can become a challenge if you not careful. When you think about the weight of the hull sitting in the mold for weeks after its cured I would hate to think about it getting stuck and the stresses the crane would place on the lifting points (ouch). Hopefully no one will ever have to hear about this on their boat build.

John T.
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:18 PM   #193
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On your interior plan John, I have noticed that the newer boats have the engine room hatch in the pilothouse hinged on the starboard side. I think this is bad design. On my previous Helmsman, they hinged the hatch on the port side. I used this to great advantage when I had to work on the electrical panel. With the hatch open, you can stand up in the engine room and work easily on any electrical modifications. With the hinge on the starboard side, you would have to be on your knees to perform this work.

I have told Scott about my thoughts but don't know if he made the change. You should check.
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:31 PM   #194
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I'm going to ask a question and it's partly as we think of the future.

You're on your third new build, fourth boat, all in a fairly narrow size range and with more similarities than differences. What is it that leads to the changes and new boats? Do you grow disenchanted with certain things after a period of time? Do you just like having something new? Is it a given going in you'll only keep it a certain time or something that just happens along the way?

As we're rather new to the coastal and ocean cruising world and boats we haven't yet reached the stage of replacing a boat or deciding it's time to trade it for something new. We've been asked about how long before we'll change or what we think we'll replace with and we have no idea. On the lake with smaller boats we kept them about 7 years on average. We typically keep cars for 5 to 7 years. But we have no idea how long we'll keep a current boat.
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:57 PM   #195
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Engine Hatch

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On your interior plan John, I have noticed that the newer boats have the engine room hatch in the pilothouse hinged on the starboard side. I think this is bad design. On my previous Helmsman, they hinged the hatch on the port side. I used this to great advantage when I had to work on the electrical panel. With the hatch open, you can stand up in the engine room and work easily on any electrical modifications. With the hinge on the starboard side, you would have to be on your knees to perform this work.

I have told Scott about my thoughts but don't know if he made the change. You should check.
Thanks for the input. I think we are OK since the electrical panel on the new boats is to port. Scott must have noticed this on previous boats and already made the change. Let us know if think of anything you would suggest we look at. Thanks
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Old 02-06-2016, 02:49 PM   #196
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Different Boats

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I'm going to ask a question and it's partly as we think of the future.

You're on your third new build, fourth boat, all in a fairly narrow size range and with more similarities than differences. What is it that leads to the changes and new boats? Do you grow disenchanted with certain things after a period of time? Do you just like having something new? Is it a given going in you'll only keep it a certain time or something that just happens along the way?

As we're rather new to the coastal and ocean cruising world and boats we haven't yet reached the stage of replacing a boat or deciding it's time to trade it for something new. We've been asked about how long before we'll change or what we think we'll replace with and we have no idea. On the lake with smaller boats we kept them about 7 years on average. We typically keep cars for 5 to 7 years. But we have no idea how long we'll keep a current boat.

B and B, great question and not the first time we have been asked. While it may appear to some we get bored quickly with our boats that's not really the case. While we have been blessed to own and enjoy many different boats (its an important part our life style) over the years it is important to point out that we are not wealthy and work hard to enjoy this life style. Looking back the past 30 years I would estimate our average boat ownership period is about 4 years. This includes many trailer boats including my favorite 22 Mako. While this average span may seem low to some it just appears to fit our life style of keeping things exciting and dealing with "life's unexpected turns".

When we decided to explore the trawler market and built the first Nordhavn we entered the unchartered waters of "going super slow" and it was something Mary didn't care for. Yes we did place the boat for sale after only 18 months thinking it would take a year, not two weeks to sell before we started the search for something a little quicker. It didn't take long for Mary to recognize the benefits of "going slow" and back to Nordhavn. We really enjoyed our second N40 "Maria Elena" and enjoyed her for about 2 years until hit us hard and we had to sell her as we focused on medical issues. I don't think we would have ever sold her if not for this reason. When we decided to test the waters see if Mary could handle boating we purchased the N35 we never intended to keep the boat very long since it was a little small for our long term use but we also didn't want to purchase a new boat and risk the financial hit at resale. I honestly believe is the N35 had not proven to be such a mechanical headache causing us frustration, we would have keep her longer and not purchased the beach house in SD.

Recognizing that living near the water is not the same as being on the water made us sell the beach house and decide to build another boat which we plan to keep for awhile. God willing we will enjoy her on the west coast until I retire in about 5 years then move her to the east coast and experience the ICW over a couple of years while keeping our primary home in southern California. This is the reason we selected the boat we did, it can handle the open waters on the west coast and the ICW on the east coast followed by a trip to the islands if we decide. Time will tell and we recognize there are no guarantees in life so why wait.

OK, I will admit that I do enjoy the research, design and build process more than the average person and that likely plays into our "length of ownership" a little (just don't tell Mary). We also like new things especially boats in part for their warranty and better odds we will have fewer issues for the first few years. This is something that we are willing to pay for. Thanks for your question.

John
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Old 02-06-2016, 03:29 PM   #197
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Very interesting, John.

Just as some are wildly arguing over flybridges at the moment, I think sometimes we do tend to not understand those with different philosophies toward boat ownership. It starts with new vs. used. The vast majority prefer the economics of buying used. I would never argue with their logic. Just not our choice. Your choice is new and your one trip down the used lane with the 35 only reconfirmed your preference. We prefer new on cars and boats, maintain them well, then at the appropriate time move on and hopefully have had a reasonable cost of ownership over the time. But we're not mechanical in nature and I don't have a high tolerance for problems putting a boat out of commission when I want to be boating. I think you make choices in boats, and we do to an extent, that will hold value better than some.

You never set out at the beginning of any of the boats planning to buy again in x years it seems. It all just sort of happened. That's how we think when asked how long we'll keep a boat. We have no idea. However, we do anticipate at some time, something will happen to drive us to want a change. Don't know when, don't know why, don't know what will precipitate the desire for change.

I find it interesting that none of your changes have been because something new out there caught your eye. I look around at boats and don't see a lot of change that would catch one's eye or excite them or drive them to want to make a change. That's good too for selling on the used market that the style just isn't moving very far or very fast. It's amazing how the vast majority of boats owned by people here and in the market aren't all that much different today, five years ago, or 20 years. Electronics change regularly but boats don't much.

We also like aspects of new builds such as building it to your own desires and needs. Then the health challenges that led you to changes, really twice as they first led you to sell and then getting through them led you to want to buy again. We know those will come in time. We have no idea what or how they'll impact us. Honestly, we're not very knowledgeable about aging and age related problems. Not only are we relatively young but we haven't really been around those who are older and have chronic health conditions much in our home and family life. I think most experience it with grand parents, then parents, then themselves. My mother was the only one of our parents to have any prolonged condition. Our parents also died younger than normal.

Perhaps a topic for another time and place, but thinking that every boat today that really interests us has essentially been built very similarly for the last 20 years. I'm sure Nordhavn aficionados can tell me all the differences in every model but I look and see the current line and I see very little real difference from years ago. Change is small and subtle.
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Old 02-07-2016, 02:50 AM   #198
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"A benefit to a non-resident NOT putting the vessel into an LLC is that Washington state law allows a longer period (6 mos. vs. 45 days, as I recall) during which the vessel can be in Washington waters without triggering the Washington sales tax."

I believe the State of Washington just recently passed legislation to change the law so the larger boats, often in LLC's, would stay in WA waters and spend more money with businesses.
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Old 02-07-2016, 04:42 AM   #199
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We typically keep cars for 5 to 7 years. But we have no idea how long we'll keep a current boat.
On that...can we know what your present boat is BandB, or is it classified for some reason..? Just that I have often felt it hard to fully understand your posts, not knowing from whence you come, be it large, very large, or small. There's no judgment on here re boat size, you know...
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Old 02-07-2016, 06:10 AM   #200
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Osr

As we continue our review of the H38 we now move up front to the owners stateroom (OSR) which is a term I always found a little "over reaching" for a smaller boat like ours but whos to argue. Having owned boats with center-lined island beds forward and one boat with the headboard to port (still forward) we prefer the first option. The primary reason is the ability to lay in bed and look aft, through the pilothouse into the bright salon thus reducing any feeling of isolation or feeling closed in. Again this is personal issue and many people may not give it second thought but its something Mary added to her must have list. This is such an issue it prevented us building the N43 a few years back due to the OSR being located down steep winding stairs and in the center of the boat.

A few other items we like about the island berth includes the four large size draws below the front of the bed and plenty of shelving on both side of the bed. A nice touch and something that plays into the "value" of this boat are the large raised shelving on both side of the bed. Believe it or not we had to pay over $1K to have these added on the N40's where on the H38 they are standard. If there is a down side to forward island berths it is normally their height and need for steps on either side of the bed to get into the bed. The H38 is not as high as some boats but still has one to two steps depending how far forward you walk. There are two hanging lockers (typical for this layout) to port and starboard which should provide enough space for us. While the overall size of the OSR is a little smaller (shorter) then we are use to (the large pilothouse needed to take room from somewhere) it should work just fine in part due to the high ceiling.

Another nice change is the separate head and shower rooms located within the OSR. We never had this type or arrangement before and look forward to experiencing something different. Like many boats in this size range the space allotted for each room is about right. We like the way Scott finished off the molded fiberglass with a fair amount of teak trim. The fresh water electric head comes standard which is also a nice upgrade from many boats including our previous boats. The same is true for the day head off the salon.

A single large overhead hatch (trimmed with teak) provides lots of light and ventilation when required. While some people may not give this hatch much thought we look at it as an emergency escape hatch in case of a fire aboard in the middle of the night.

One last item to mention about the OSR is the door and steps leading from the pilothouse. This really something cool and the result of the low profile pilothouse which is only two steps above the OSR. Due to this short difference you don't have enough room or height for a full size (6') door so the boat has a small half door and sliding overhead hatch that closes up the OSR room for full privacy. Somewhat like on a sailboat when entering the cabin below from the outside deck (pretty cool). What we like about this design besides being different is the ability to close the door and leaving the sliding hatch open for natural light.

Well that's about it for now. More to follow..........

John
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