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Old 09-13-2014, 10:16 AM   #21
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Wow I would like see those boat yards it sound like the aerospace industry. I understand where they are coming from, I can see there point but it is still a "home" built boat and you are the owner. I would still look around for a good welder for the longer seams.
Apparently a lot of alloy naval vessels have problems with cracking; but they do take a constant bashing 24/7. Repairing a crack in the hull is the problem. You have to grind it out very deep, then fill with weld. But the problem is if you overheat the area to get the required penetration, the weld becomes brittle. It's virtually impossible to get the area clean enough to stop imperfections in the weld.

So patrol vessels spend lots of time being re-welded over and over again .....!
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Old 09-13-2014, 10:21 AM   #22
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I've built a steel boat before, and I'm getting very close to 60 years old. I feel I have one more boat in me before I hit the buffers!
Well, that changes a lot. Didn't know you'd built one before. Something tells me you almost look forward to the experience of building it as much as you do using it.
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Old 09-13-2014, 10:21 AM   #23
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Have you every seen the way they run those boats. Wide open throttle and don't care if I break it is there attitude. No one that owns the boat would abuse it that way. They but air cushion seat in those boats for that reason.
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Old 09-13-2014, 10:22 AM   #24
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Glen-L has been creating and selling designs for home-builders for many years. One of their designs is the Union Jack, a 31' semi-displacement trawler yacht in steel. It can be lengthened to 34' by increasing the frame spacing.

There is one for sale locally that has been beautifully built and only requires interior completion. I have seen it and would have bought it had it been on the market when I purchased Boomarang. At this point, I am too far along in my refit to start another project.

A quick Internet search will return information on several that have been successfully built and seem to serve their intended purpose quite well.

I think this is a good example of what is possible for the home-builder using steel as a hull material.
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Old 09-13-2014, 10:25 AM   #25
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Way cheaper to buy used I know that.
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Old 09-13-2014, 11:39 AM   #26
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Well, that changes a lot. Didn't know you'd built one before. Something tells me you almost look forward to the experience of building it as much as you do using it.
I built a 60' by 13' barge for my sins, when I was younger and fitter.

So a 34' boat is a tiny little tiddler for me to build!
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Old 09-13-2014, 11:44 AM   #27
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Glen-L has been creating and selling designs for home-builders for many years. One of their designs is the Union Jack, a 31' semi-displacement trawler yacht in steel. It can be lengthened to 34' by increasing the frame spacing.

There is one for sale locally that has been beautifully built and only requires interior completion. I have seen it and would have bought it had it been on the market when I purchased Boomarang. At this point, I am too far along in my refit to start another project.

A quick Internet search will return information on several that have been successfully built and seem to serve their intended purpose quite well.

I think this is a good example of what is possible for the home-builder using steel as a hull material.
He's done a beautiful job on that build, high high quality of work.

Although the Union Jack is listed as a S/D design it's specs state:

Our UNION JACK offers a high degree of seagoing ability, comfort, and economy all with the security and safety of steel hull and deck construction. The low resistance semi-displacement hard-chine hull requires only minimal power for exceptional cruising range at operating speeds from 7 to 8-1/2 knots. Full walkaround decks include the security of a raised protective bulwark all around, forming a convenient full width cockpit seat aft. The rudder, propeller, and shaft are all protected from damage by a deep 1/2" thick solid steel skeg. Flaring topsides plus a deep convex forefoot deflect waves and cushion the ride when the going gets tough. The plans give options for either the curved cruiser stern, or the more basic transom stern.


That's displacement speeds, but it is a lovely design; I like it a lot.

My specs were 34'/7-8 tons/330hp/ 15kts max; 12 fast cruise.....or thereabouts.

Would the Union Jack take 330hp?
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Old 09-13-2014, 11:46 AM   #28
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Way cheaper to buy used I know that.
..and miss out on all that hassle and grief of building your own.
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Old 09-13-2014, 12:19 PM   #29
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I built a 60' by 13' barge for my sins,
Wifey B: A barge for sins....sounds like a fun barge.
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Old 09-13-2014, 12:25 PM   #30
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He's done a beautiful job on that build, high high quality of work.

Although the Union Jack is listed as a S/D design it's specs state:

Our UNION JACK offers a high degree of seagoing ability, comfort, and economy all with the security and safety of steel hull and deck construction. The low resistance semi-displacement hard-chine hull requires only minimal power for exceptional cruising range at operating speeds from 7 to 8-1/2 knots. Full walkaround decks include the security of a raised protective bulwark all around, forming a convenient full width cockpit seat aft. The rudder, propeller, and shaft are all protected from damage by a deep 1/2" thick solid steel skeg. Flaring topsides plus a deep convex forefoot deflect waves and cushion the ride when the going gets tough. The plans give options for either the curved cruiser stern, or the more basic transom stern.


That's displacement speeds, but it is a lovely design; I like it a lot.

My specs were 34'/7-8 tons/330hp/ 15kts max; 12 fast cruise.....or thereabouts.

Would the Union Jack take 330hp?
Looks nice. I had a cousin-in-law build a boat 30 years ago, but I don't know where he got the design. I do know I refused to go on it's maiden voyage. I also know it flipped over sideways as it got closer to the inlet. They got to shore and then got a wrecker to pull it to where they could put it back on the trailer.

But the Union Jack looks nice. I'm missing the semi-displacement part on it, but the other aspects all seem to work.
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Old 09-13-2014, 12:34 PM   #31
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Wifey B: A barge for sins....sounds like a fun barge.
Now you know why My forum name is Rustybarge......
Same paint since 1998!

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Old 09-13-2014, 12:38 PM   #32
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Looks nice. I had a cousin-in-law build a boat 30 years ago, but I don't know where he got the design. I do know I refused to go on it's maiden voyage. I also know it flipped over sideways as it got closer to the inlet. They got to shore and then got a wrecker to pull it to where they could put it back on the trailer.

But the Union Jack looks nice. I'm missing the semi-displacement part on it, but the other aspects all seem to work.
I love the pilothouse with rear cabin layout; works really well even in a small boat.
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Old 09-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #33
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Recognize that building in steel means no compound curves unless the plate is shaped somehow. You can bend plate one way, you can bend it the other way, but not both. So unless you have some elaborate construction techniques, the hull is not easy to build with pretty lines or good hydrodynamics.

I've built stuff in steel, not a boat though, and I've built a cold molded boat. Both are miserable projects involving dust, noise, heat, and injuries. But I would much rather go cold molded over steel. The amount of cutting and grinding necessary is staggering. And unless an expert, hull will be bumpy.

Alloy, no way. Steel corrodes at a slow predictable rate. When alloy gets into a corrosive situation, it can attack rapidly and locally. And hard to weld properly. I can't weld alloy worth a crap. Steel, no problem.
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Old 09-13-2014, 01:35 PM   #34
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Recognize that building in steel means no compound curves unless the plate is shaped somehow. You can bend plate one way, you can bend it the other way, but not both. So unless you have some elaborate construction techniques, the hull is not easy to build with pretty lines or good hydrodynamics.

I've built stuff in steel, not a boat though, and I've built a cold molded boat. Both are miserable projects involving dust, noise, heat, and injuries. But I would much rather go cold molded over steel. The amount of cutting and grinding necessary is staggering. And unless an expert, hull will be bumpy.

Alloy, no way. Steel corrodes at a slow predictable rate. When alloy gets into a corrosive situation, it can attack rapidly and locally. And hard to weld properly. I can't weld alloy worth a crap. Steel, no problem.
Whatever about steel rusting, if your anti fouls gets scratched on a alloy boat and you're tied up to a steel piling in a harbour in seawater, your alloy hull will dissolve in front of your eyes !

Are those stories about owners of alloy boats asking the crew to empty their pockets of copper coins true? (A couple of months to eat through the hull?)
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Old 09-13-2014, 01:59 PM   #35
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Here are some links to the actual construction of several Union Jacks. I think you can get a pretty good idea of the process from them.

UNION JACK by Scott A. Ochocki (1-02)
UNION JACK by Pat Walsh, Ireland (8-04)
UNION JACK by David Ainge, Townsville, Australia (10-08)
UNION JACK by Seahorse Marine, Zhuhai, China

Happy browsing/dreaming
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Old 09-13-2014, 02:20 PM   #36
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Here are some links to the actual construction of several Union Jacks. I think you can get a pretty good idea of the process from them.

UNION JACK by Scott A. Ochocki (1-02)
UNION JACK by Pat Walsh, Ireland (8-04)
UNION JACK by David Ainge, Townsville, Australia (10-08)
UNION JACK by Seahorse Marine, Zhuhai, China

Happy browsing/dreaming
Thanks for your links.
She's a pretty hull, I'm going to ask how fast she could go into the low teens with a bigger engine.



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Old 09-13-2014, 04:23 PM   #37
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If you are not already aware of the fact that the hull no matter the material is the cheapest part of the boat ,know it now. Most of the time and money that go into a new build is based on the guts and finish. The only way the home build becomes a bargain is if owner builder has the skill/know-how and puts the time(lots of time) into the construction. If the home build is not very well done the real cost can come when you have to sell. For the vast majority a used production boat or somebody's used custom or home made is the best way to go. If you have the skills and time and really enjoy building go ahead but be aware that you probably will not save money in the long run. Steel is good building stuff so are all the other options with one big admonition, it has to be done right. For a home builder ply composite is probably easiest to get a good fair job and starting with a professionally molded bare hull such as a DE lobster hull even better. A lot to think about good luck. Ed.
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Old 09-13-2014, 04:55 PM   #38
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If you are not already aware of the fact that the hull no matter the material is the cheapest part of the boat ,know it now. Most of the time and money that go into a new build is based on the guts and finish. The only way the home build becomes a bargain is if owner builder has the skill/know-how and puts the time(lots of time) into the construction. If the home build is not very well done the real cost can come when you have to sell. For the vast majority a used production boat or somebody's used custom or home made is the best way to go. If you have the skills and time and really enjoy building go ahead but be aware that you probably will not save money in the long run. Steel is good building stuff so are all the other options with one big admonition, it has to be done right. For a home builder ply composite is probably easiest to get a good fair job and starting with a professionally molded bare hull such as a DE lobster hull even better. A lot to think about good luck. Ed.
My ideas for the interior is free standing furniture, none of that fitted trailer type stuff: I think it's looks horrid when it get old and tatty! This should save thousands of $$$.

With led lights only one tiny live wire is needed to wire the whole boat with lights; even more money saved. Wi-Fi can be used for computer/TV/ hifi with no wiring.
Fitting a Honda 2kw suitcase genny on the swim platform would charge the batteries/ heat water; only a couple of wires needed.
Really with modern tech it's just an empty shell without any expensive fitting out.
So I'll try to create a long flat surface from the transom through to the saloon up to the inside helm with cheap oak floor boards to give a work boat look; the walls with a simple vertical tongue and groove pine boarding like in a classic trawler boat.


....this way the fitout should be really cheap, and look authentic as well!
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:33 AM   #39
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Update: I've got a response from Andrew Wolstenholme the naval architect for the cost of designing a 34' steel trawler; just the general arrangement, scantlings and plate thickness' with a table of offsets, no detailing work included.

Anyone like to guess?

But I have also learnt some very useful information. I asked for a design that would max out at 15kts, and have a fast cruise of 12 kts. His response was that in a steel hull 15 kts is considered planing speed not S/D; he advised me to reduce my requirement to 12 kts max.

Just presuming that steel is going to be hard to shape into a good profile for a S/D hull with all its curved surfaces, which will severely limit the efficiency of the steel hull form over 12 kts.

Know we know why the glen l Union Jack is called a S /d design; it goes a few knots faster than hull speed!

The plot thickens as they say! Is 12 kts fast enough in a boat to run for cover?

PS: I think the NA is saying a steel s/d design is really a fast displacement design, rather than a proper s/d hull form that you could mould into a GRP boat.
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:06 AM   #40
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A well built steel boat with a low center of gravity is like a turtle. Slow but well armored against the weather it just plods along. With the current forecasts good for at least 3 days of warning before you get winds over 40 knots I don't think running for cover is a big deal. I bet the change of plans is no less the 6000 us.
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