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Old 08-11-2016, 06:16 PM   #41
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42 Californian 1977 -- New Owner Need Manual

Hi all,

I just bought a 1977 42 Californian with the 185HP Perkins MGT engines (The ones with the "breadbox" coolers). I do have an engine manual because that is floating around on the Web, but am looking for an owner's manual. The most pressing question I have right now is what are the correct prop specs?

For the curious, I replaced the "Breadbox" coolers with Orca's replacements. One hole needed to be drilled for the install, but they otherwise dropped in and seem to do the job well.

Would anyone happen to have scans of the manual that could be sent my way? Or one which could be bought? Or anything?

Thanks so very much!

-Greg
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:25 PM   #42
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I bet you TG's manual he offered here is very close. Not sure what engine he has.

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Old 08-11-2016, 06:35 PM   #43
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Hi FlyWright,

Thanks so much! I'll ping him.

I think they switched in 1978 from the Perkins 6.354MGT to the Cat 3208, which has more HP. So, I'm still interested if anyone happens to have manuals for the version with the Perkins.

But, I'll gladly and most thankful take whatever I can get!

Thanks again!

-Greg
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Old 08-12-2016, 08:44 PM   #44
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gkesden:
Are you looking for an engine manual or an owners manual for the entire boat. I bought mine new in 1977 (it's a 1976 model). We asked for owners manuals and were told by Yachts Unlimited (the Californian dealer in Seattle) that the manufacture (Marshall) didn't have an owners manuals for it's boats at that time and they provided us with a generic Perkins 6.354 shop manual. (Which we had to pay for.)

I saw brand new 1977 LRC's, 38's and 42', right off the truck being delivered to the dealership in Seattle. They had no electronics, generators, the electrical breaker panel was mostly blank, no spotlights, main salon furniture, etc. They did have a compass installed at the lower station, but not on the flybridge. $78 boat dollars got you a basic boat.

Yachts Unlimited contracted with Fremont Electric to install the electrical, 7.5 kw Onan and panel in Seattle on mine. I don't know who they had install the radio's, fathometers, remote control spotlights, etc. They provided us with the name of a shop to custom build the salon settee and teak table.

At some point they did create a "boat" owners manual with basic systems and wiring diagrams. I don't know if that was under Marshall or Carver.

The Perkins 6.354's T's and NA's were the standard engine and the 3208 na's and T's were an upgrade option after 1977 I believe. You could also custom order them with twin 85 hp, 4 cylinder Perkins too. I had a friend with one in Bremerton. Don't know where that boat is now, I heard it went to BC, Canada.

I would like to see a copy of the owners manual even if it is for the later boats. I'll bet it's pretty close to the older boats as well, other than the owner installed equipment.

Maybe TG could post the manual he has and we can add it to the pinned reference information page?
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:58 AM   #45
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42 Californian Manuals, Perkins 6.354MGT, Props, and RPMs

Hi Edelweiss,

THANKS SO MUCH! Any chance you could let me know what props you've got on yours and the cruise and WOT RPM and speed, if you happen to know them?

(Details below.)

Thanks so much for all of the information. I had no idea that the boats were delivered that way and finished up by the dealers. I guess it makes sense. I think my electrical panel is a LEWCO, which is a local company. And my genset is a 7.5kw Kohler that the service folks tell me is a rare model with no documentation available. Interesting that even the settee was after-the-fact, because most I've seen have been so similar.

I was hoping to find a boat manual. Maybe I'll hear back from TG. If I do, I'll try to get it posted somewhere, if I can. In the meantime, I've been using the sticky one for the 38 in the resources area -- it was indispensible in helping me figure out the fuel valves!

But, maybe you can help me with what I'd really, really, ..., really like to know right now...what props should the boat have and what are the cruise and WOT (under load, underway) RPM and speed?

...or, what do you have and whatever you happen to know about how it has performed for you?

My boat runs smoothly, but is smokey in the slip. It is mostly white, maybe with a tiny touch of grey. But, it is smoke, not steam -- it settles in. It doesn't really clear up under load, but doesn't get worse unless I go WOT, in which case it gets decidedly more grey, but not black.

Underway, I'm saw a WOT RPM of about 2100. Because of wind and seas, it is a bit hard to tell what my speed actually was, but, per my GPS, it was 14-15kn/hr WOT. At 1800 RPM, I was seeing about 12kn/hr. And, I was seeing 9-10kn/hr with a somewhat wide range of more modest throttle settings (As I got closer to 10, it was taking more and more and more to get small gains).

My best guess is that I am over-propped and, when I start dumping fuel in, am not able to get enough RPMs to get it burned. My hope is that, once I learn the original specs, I'm right. And that, if I go back to the right props, I'll develop 2400-2500RPM at WOT and get rid of the grey color in the high-throttle situations.

My diver tells me that my props are chewed up at the edges, but I'm not getting any vibration on either side. I couldn't get a good picture of how bad they are from him. I have been meaning to dive it myself and look, but the boat is 2hrs from me, so it hasn't yet gotten done while I am there -- too many other things on the list. But, in any case, I think that is a different concern and I'll know that story this week when I have it hauled.

The fuel in there now is mostly from the PO. Other folks at the marina told me the boat hadn't run in 10 years. He said 5. I'm betting the fuel is pushing 15 years old. My gauges are off and I thought I had less than I did and went to add more, but got barely more than 100 gallons in before all were totally full. I was hoping dilution would be the solution to pollution. But, I don't think it worked out that way. I'm going to try getting the tanks cleaned and fuel replaced.

I would try polishing the fuel, but I think a problem is actually that there is too much additive. I added a bunch. And, I think the PO probably did every few years -- if I splash in a bucket of fuel, it bubbles, almost like detergent!
I'm not seeing any water in the separators and the fuel's color and smell is good. Regardless, I'm just going to replace it. I'm hoping that will clean up the exhaust a lot.

I'm also going to do the injectors on one engine and see if it helps. I'm not optimistic because the top of all 12 injectors show the same 158-160 degrees with an IR thermometer underway. So, I don't think I've got a dirty one or bad cylinder. But, if it helps on one engine, I'll do the other.

Two mechanics, one a Perkins specialist, have told me that Perkins are just smokey after they get a few hours on them, and unless it is black, rough, or under powered, I shouldn't worry about the smoke or low RPMs. They just told me to find the WOT RPM and redefine cruise RPM to be 85-90% of that. But, I'd really like to clean it up if I can.

So, basically, my plan is to take care of the fuel and injectors and see if that fixes the smoke at idle and to take care of the props and see if that cures the touch of grey at high throttle.

I do know that I shouldn't run the engines hard often. I intend to cruise at 10kn/hr or less. And, more often closer to 8-9kn/hr. I'm just running it up for short bursts now to try to understand what the performance specs are, make sure cooling is working, and get confidence in things, etc.

Thanks again for all of your help!

-Greg















Quote:
Originally Posted by Edelweiss View Post
gkesden:
Are you looking for an engine manual or an owners manual for the entire boat. I bought mine new in 1977 (it's a 1976 model). We asked for owners manuals and were told by Yachts Unlimited (the Californian dealer in Seattle) that the manufacture (Marshall) didn't have an owners manuals for it's boats at that time and they provided us with a generic Perkins 6.354 shop manual. (Which we had to pay for.)

I saw brand new 1977 LRC's, 38's and 42', right off the truck being delivered to the dealership in Seattle. They had no electronics, generators, the electrical breaker panel was mostly blank, no spotlights, main salon furniture, etc. They did have a compass installed at the lower station, but not on the flybridge. $78 boat dollars got you a basic boat.

Yachts Unlimited contracted with Fremont Electric to install the electrical, 7.5 kw Onan and panel in Seattle on mine. I don't know who they had install the radio's, fathometers, remote control spotlights, etc. They provided us with the name of a shop to custom build the salon settee and teak table.

At some point they did create a "boat" owners manual with basic systems and wiring diagrams. I don't know if that was under Marshall or Carver.

The Perkins 6.354's T's and NA's were the standard engine and the 3208 na's and T's were an upgrade option after 1977 I believe. You could also custom order them with twin 85 hp, 4 cylinder Perkins too. I had a friend with one in Bremerton. Don't know where that boat is now, I heard it went to BC, Canada.

I would like to see a copy of the owners manual even if it is for the later boats. I'll bet it's pretty close to the older boats as well, other than the owner installed equipment.

Maybe TG could post the manual he has and we can add it to the pinned reference information page?
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Old 08-15-2016, 05:59 PM   #46
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Greg;
I'm not going to be able to help you with the prop size and pitch as my engines are the 130 HP 6.354 N/A's with 1 3/8" shaft in the 38' hull. So you will have an entirely different shaft/wheel size and pitch with the turbo'd 185 hp Perkins. There should be some guys on here with the turbo'd Perkins who can help you out.

Your current wheel size and pitch should be stamped into the prop hub. That should tell you a lot about the situation with your props. You will also need the gear ratio of your transmissions. There is a brass tag riveted on top of the gear case. Mine are Borg Warner Model AS-71C and the ratio is 1.91 to 1.

Could also be the fuel, injectors or low compression. When cold, do the engines fire right off or do you have to grind the starter to get them going or use a hot start igniter system?

I'm guessing your smoke problems are more likely glazed cylinder walls which is pretty typical of the 6.354 Perkins in the early Californians. If so, fixing that means installing new sleeves and rings. Once rebuilt with modern components, most of the smoke will go away.

If the props and hull aren't fouled with marine growth, It should run up to 2800 WOT fairly easily and cruise at 2400. I wouldn't be running them at WOT for any length of time until you get a handle on what's going on. If it is over propped, then you don't want to be stressing the engines and running gear. Stick to the 9 -10 k range until you resolve the issues.

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Old 08-15-2016, 06:26 PM   #47
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Hi Larry,

Thanks for everything!

Indeed. With luck someone else will be able to jump in and let me know about their props. That would be wonderful!

The engines start right up when cold, barely a turn of a key. Does this help point in any direction?

How expensive is it to rebuild the engines? The mechanics here both told I shouldn't even think about it. Basically, they said it is expensive and not worth it for whatever glazing I might have, since there is no reason to believe I have a bad cylinder. They said they wouldn't recommend it unless I was seeing black smoke, running rough, or some sign of things wearing out vs just being smokey, but otherwise running smoothly and performing well from bottom-to-top.

Given that the boat was moving close to 15kn WOT and had even temps across the cylinders, the local diesel shop didn't think I had any significant loss of compression in any of the cylinders. They couldn't imagine one of those moving faster -- and the engines were obviously doing the pushing. They thought I might be slightly over-propped because they felt the engines should get 2400RPM WOT vs 2100. But, they didn't feel it would take much extra prop to do that. Their gut was that I have a little of everything...40 year old injectors aren't going to be perfect. Decade old fuel isn't going to be perfect. 40 year old engine isn't going to be perfect. Props might be a little off. They basically suggested addressing the fuel and injectors, for whatever benefit they would bring, and leaving the props alone and just defining cruise RPM accordingly. At that point they felt that, whatever smoke there is, there should be, and just run it.

THANKS AGAIN!

-Greg
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Old 08-15-2016, 06:42 PM   #48
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Don't put too much faith in the boat's tachs. An accurate digital photo tach can be purchased for about $15 on Amazon.

https://smile.amazon.com/Signstek-Pr...oto+tachometer

Here's a prop calculator that might help.

https://www.vicprop.com/displacement...tion=calculate
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:15 PM   #49
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Hi FlyWright,

Thanks so much!

Just ordered that phototach. That is neat! I was wondering how to verify and calibrate the tachs. Question answered!

I've seen the prop calculators. The problem is that I don't know the parameters for them. I know my displacement, draft, engines HP, and LOA. I can count the bearings when I haul it and estimate the length and beam at waterline. But I don't know the gear ratio. And, to be honest, I'm not sure how close my estimation of the waterline measurements will be. Maybe someone knows?

THANKS AGAIN!

-Greg
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:55 PM   #50
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Here's my 42 LRC Owners Manual. It has info for the Perkins. Sorry about the fuzzy text, I had to compress it to meet the file size limit of the TF.

Enjoy!
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkesden View Post
Hi Larry,

Thanks for everything!

Indeed. With luck someone else will be able to jump in and let me know about their props. That would be wonderful!

The engines start right up when cold, barely a turn of a key. Does this help point in any direction?

-Greg
Yes, actually that does indicate that you have reasonably good compression. For a diesel, the 6.354 is on the low end of the table at 16 to 1 compression ratio. Any loss of compression and they are notoriously hard to start when cold.

Good idea to check the accuracy of your tac's before you do anything.

My recollection is they topped out at around 14 knots normal load and cruised at 10 - 11k. Check the tag on the side of the CAV injector pump for the correct RPM. I'm thinking it was 2400 wot, 2250 cruise on the turbo'd engines, 2800 and 2400 on the NA's.

The engine rebuild kits are reasonably priced and if it can be done in the boat, yes it's a messy job, but so much the better. The real cost is in the mechanics labor and yard costs if it has to be hauled. The mechanics advice is right, If the smoke doesn't bother you or your neighbors then not worth the cost.

You can easily remove the injectors yourself and take them to a shop for testing. If they're not dribbling and have a good spray pattern, don't kit them. It's really simple, no special tools required. Just be sure and slide a new ring on the injector nozzle before replacing it.

Since the diver said your props were already buggered up, it would be a good time to have them reconditioned and if necessary, have them take a degree or two of pitch out of the props to get your rpm's back to spec.

Best of Luck
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:01 PM   #52
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Hi Larry,

Thanks so much! I think that is exactly the plan. I'll post again, hopefully within a couple or three weeks and let everyone know how the story (or at least this chapter) ends.

THANKS AGAIN!

-Greg
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:06 PM   #53
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Hi TG, Hi all,

Thanks so very much for the manual! It is a great read!

I OCRed it into a MS Word text document and am now going through it and cleaning it up. My goal is to produce a small file version that looks like the original, but prints cleanly for anyone that wants a hard copy. It'll probably take me a few weeks do do it, on-and-off, as I am in the mood for somewhat mindless but detailed work. I'll post it as soon as I am done.

Would you happen to know the date or year of the manual? I want to add that as a note somewhere on the first page. It might have already been there, but didn't come through on the scan.

Also, I didn't see that the prop specs in there, so if anyone knows, I remain very interested.

THANKS AGAIN!
-Greg

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Here's my 42 LRC Owners Manual. It has info for the Perkins. Sorry about the fuzzy text, I had to compress it to meet the file size limit of the TF.

Enjoy!
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:10 PM   #54
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Here's a copy of the original build kit shipped with boat 42 #150:

It lists the props as 23x20x1 1/2 three blade 185 + 130 HP. Not sure what that means. It also shows another prop spec at the bottom that was deleted as 23x21x1 3/8 four blade 185 hp. Maybe that's for a 38 or Perkins.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:19 PM   #55
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Hi TG,

Thanks so much! This is great!

Just for reference, this build kit was for a 1979 with the 3208 Cat? Or the Perkins 6.354MGT?

I thought yours had Cats, but I also thought the Cats were 220s vs 185s and this mentions 185HP?

Thanks so very much -- for EVERYTHING!

-Greg
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:24 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkesden View Post
Hi TG,

Thanks so much! This is great!

Just for reference, this build kit was for a 1979 with the 3208 Cat? Or the Perkins 6.354MGT?

I thought yours had Cats, but I also thought the Cats were 220s vs 185s and this mentions 185HP?

Thanks so very much -- for EVERYTHING!

-Greg
Yes, I have the Cat 3208 Naturals and they are each rated at 210 HP so I don't know what's up with the 185-130 spec.
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:54 PM   #57
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The Manual has pages dated for December 1978, so I would say it's probably created for 1979 model year boats.

Looks like the first portion is generic for all Californian boats. Under windows, it mentions lexan windows in 30' Californians. Also mentions a 3kw or 7.5kw generator option. I never saw a 3kw in a 38' or 42', so maybe for smaller models. The drawings on pages 1-5 portion at the end, is where it appears to be specific to 38' - 42' boats and is so labeled at the bottom. That would make sense since they were the same hull other than the overall length. Location of engines, fuel tanks, water tank, bathrooms, system configurations was also the same.

Thanks for posting this TG, a good reference.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:31 AM   #58
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PS:There is a drawing for water distribution which notes it's for a 30' and 34' Californian. Plus several drawings specific for a 34' model.

Also a detailed discussion of Perkins engine operation and maintenance. Although it does mention Cat engines. there is no section covering operation and maintenance of the 3208.

I'm guessing, but this particular manual was probably from a boat with Perkins engines.
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:20 AM   #59
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PS:There is a drawing for water distribution which notes it's for a 30' and 34' Californian. Plus several drawings specific for a 34' model.

Also a detailed discussion of Perkins engine operation and maintenance. Although it does mention Cat engines. there is no section covering operation and maintenance of the 3208.

I'm guessing, but this particular manual was probably from a boat with Perkins engines.
The owners manual was supplied as a three ring notebook. It included a separate operation guide from CAT for the 3208. The print date on the operation guide indicates 5-76. The notebook included several factory guides for equipment that came installed on the boat like the MG502's, Onan MDJE, VHF, intercom, princess stove, telcor synchronizer windlass, etc...
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Old 08-16-2016, 10:08 AM   #60
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Hmm, that's very interesting. Looks like Marshall prepared a 40+ page generic boat owners manual. The individual operators manuals from the manufactures, Cat, Onan, etc were combined with it in a ring binder.

My manufactures manuals came in a manila envelope, minus Marshalls binder and the 40 page operators manual. I think I was cheated. lol

But no individual operators manual for Perkins? Guess they didn't have a small operators manual for Perkins. There are several versions of the Perkins engine manual. The "Perkins Handbook" is very detailed, but is more of an operators manual. The Perkins Engine Manual is a shop manual and goes into all the details of rebuilding the engines.

I have the Perkins Handbook and CAV injection pump manual in PDF. If anybody needs them, shoot me a PM with your email address.
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