Rudder stuffing

[overgill]

Now that we have had two days in a row over 32f I am finally starting my spring bring up. One of the things on the list is to re-stuff the rudder stuffing box. I have a 32 IG single. My question is not so much as to how to do the stuffing box but the pivot were the rudder is supported at the bottom at the end of the keel. I have some play in that pivot point and don't know what is acceptable. I am concerned that maybe that play could be contributing to the stuffing box leaking. Is there suppose to be a bushing of some sort or is it ok that it is just trapped loosely by the bracket at the end of the keel. I have tightened the stuffing box a couple of times only to have it start leaking again after a run. The boat is a 1990 so I figure its due.

Any input here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

 

[HiDHo]

Basic design of most rudder post is a carrier bearing area. This may be a machine fit sleeve that may or may not have bearings as part of the construction. With the packing removed if there is a lot of side to side movement the sleeve/bearing area may need replacing. This play will surely make it difficult to seal with packing as the side to side motion will defeat the packing ability to seal the rudder post. I have seen many surveyors pushing and pulling on the rudders when a boat is hauled out for inspection checking for this problem.

 

[O C Diver]

Pictures would help. On my dive boat, the rudder drops into a bronze shoe that is bolted to the end of the skeg. When the bronze shoe became sloppy, I had it bored out on a lathe. Then we took a cutlass bearing that fit the rudder shaft and the bored out shoe, and cut it into 1.5" segments. We pressed a segment into the shoe and were back in business. The cutlass bearing last about 3 years (1, 500 hours), then I have to remove it and put another segment in.

Ted

 

[overgill]

Thanks

I started to do the stuffing box today and actually did check to see how much play it had with the stuffing cap off and it was the same. When I say it has movement I mean that if I put pressure at the bottom of the rudder I can see it move in the support bracket its not moving around at he top going into the boat. There is another sleeve above the stuffing box that appears to have a bushing of sorts. This is just below the steering arm were the cables connect. It was suggested to me that the bracket on the keel is to support the weight keep the rudder from dropping.
Just seems to me that it could provide weight support and alignment.

I was not able to get the packing out of the cap (need better picks) hoping to give it another attempt tomorrow I will take photos. The bracket dose not look difficult to take off and I have a lath so I may just take your suggestion OC and add a bushing.

Thank you guys I will get back with the photos.

 

[overgill]

rudder photos

I did get by the boat today, to cold to do much more than take a few photos.
I took a few shots but I am only able to select one if I attempt to add a second it delets the first?? Problem for another day. The one photo I did manage to add shows the bracket at the bottom of the rudder. I have to say it looks like the bore the shaft is sitting in is worn and actually should be fitted to the shaft. It would be helpful to compare this with another IG single.

I am having more trouble posting a photo that the rudder, anyway I will post this but the photos don't show up in the preview??? Sorry

 

[Arctic Traveller]

Why not take it apart and do a complete inspection? If it were mine, I'd want the rudder to have as little play as possible, but not so tight it binds up. You may have to machine it out a bit and install a bushing, but that should be an easy job. Any play will certainly contribute to premature wear in the packing gland, just the same as if your shaft were moving around, only much slower...........Arctic Traveller

 

[overgill]

Thank you

I agree AT it comes apart and I will install a bushing. Maybe I am better at metal fabrication than posting photos. The amount of water that leaks is minimal but it is the only leak in the boat it would be very nice to have a 25 year old boat with a dry bilge.

Thank you all I will check back in and let you know how it went.

 

[Irish Rambler]

Hi overgill,
Just a suggestion,
I had the same problem and I fabricated an 1'' thick square of PTFE plastic and drilled the centre for the rudder as a slight push fit and then bolted the PTFE square to the keel, it's very easy to work with, self lubricating and I haven't changed it in 15 years year's cruising.
I hope this helps

 

[overgill]

Thank you IR.
I am not aquatinted with PTFE maybe I know it by another name. If I was able to get the photos to load you could see that what I have is basically a bronze sleeve that I believe is worn so I plan on boring it out and pressing a gutless bearing. OC Diver said he gets 3 seasons (1500 hrs) If I can get that I may not live long enough to wear it out.
I will check into the PTFE sounds like something worth knowing about.

Thanks again "Irish Rambler" from France!

 

[Northern Spy]

PTFE is Polytetrafluoroethylene, popularly known as Teflon.

I haven't had great luck using PTFE as a bushing in many applications as it deforms readily. If you do use it consider seeking out one that is glass filled.

Generally I'd consider a UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) plastic first. There are many types and can come prelubricated with moly-disulfide as well.

Local to me and very helpful is a company called Redwood Plastics. I have used them extensively in industrial solutions. They know marine applications very well.

Spend a little time on their website and then give them a call. Pretty sure they'll help you out.

 

[Irish Rambler]

overgill,
We're very lucky here on TF to have such a wealth of knowledge literally 'on tap'.
Northern spy can help you further with the choice of suitable plastics available.
I think because of the low speed turning of the rudder and the fact that it's permanently water lubricated certainly helps. I made 2 originally in case of wear and needing a replacement and never needed the second one.
I've 2 boats at the moment, the Birchwood 33 in France is fitted with the original modification Teflon rudder block, we recently bought a 42 Broom in Ireland and I fitted the spare one I had as it also had play in the rudder heel.
On the Birchwood I needed spacers below the davits where they are mounted on the aft deck,originally I used hardwood blocks, over time and the Mediterranean sun they began to split and weep around the bolt holes so I removed the davits and fitted PTFE blocks with suitable sealant instead and it seems to be a lifetime fit it and forget it job.


Plastics are a whole ball game on their own so hopefully Redwood plastics can help you even more.

 

[overgill]

You have that right the TF is a great resource.
I have to agree with NS in this case plastic may not be the way to go. I was thinking how many hours potentially could be on that bushing "rudder heel" as you put it, The current motor has 1100 hrs it was installed in 2000 the original owner went everywhere I inherited charts covering Nova Scotia to the Keys. The boat likely has thousands of hrs. so its not hard to see how the bushing would need attention.

Say IR have you ever made the run from France to the UK, the shot across to England is only 20 miles but Island would be an adventure.

Thank you all again great info!

 

[Irish Rambler]

I'm a cynical kinda guy and like to see well proven items fitted to boats but of course that also blocks practical progress, I decided to give the PTFE a go because the muddy water of Ireland's lakes and river were abrasive to the original copper bushing and I wanted something more durable.
I worked in R&D in the services and in the family business we had to make our own specialised equipment I'm always trying new angles and ideas, the majority work, some don't, but that's life.
I skippered the Birchwood single handed that we're currently living on in Narbonne from Ireland down to here, obviously had to cross the channel to get to France, some trip. I've just put a new thread up Ireland to France, we bought another boat and were bringing it over but we have to go via the Atlantic and round the South West coast of Ireland as the boat is to large to go the shorter route via the Barrow canal.
You can check out the rivers and canals in Ireland if you log on to www.waterwaysireland.com Sorry, I can't download the maps for you as they are blocked.

 

[overgill]

Thank for the reply IR I will check it out.

I spent some time in the UK when I was working. The only thing more impressive than the huge tides is the friendly wonderful people.

Tomorrow is suppose to warm up a bit so I am going to attempt to pull the "rudder heel" and get started on the machine work. I will check back with the results.

 

[HiDHo]

You mentioned being "unable to get the packing out of the cap need a pick". The packing should be in a gland with staggered joints, the top packing ring being pushed into the gland by the cap. I had a similar problem on our Manatee when we first took ownership. Packing in the cap. Turned out that the Manatee used an "O" ring for sealing the rudder shaft and no packing, the PO had tried un-successfully to seal it using packing. Just a thought that the comment you made about packing in the cap made me recall.

 

[overgill]

HiDHo

Yes the packing is in the cap and I thought it odd as well. Last season I replaced the shaft stuffing box with a dripless, the original I believe is called a self aligning. When sizing up what I needed for the rudder I used the old shaft parts (drive and rudder shaft are the same size). The shaft stuffing was the same way in the cap. I have the old shaft parts in my hand as I wright this and looking at it I see no other way it can work. I feel confident that the PO never touched this. Anything the PO touched was better off left alone.

Wish I could figure out how to get a photo to download.

 

[overgill]

rudder pics

One more try. OK looks like I got one to go.

 

[HiDHo]

The inboard rudder post sealing assemble doesn't look like it was designed to seal with packing. I would try cleaning it up and remove the packing out of the cap. measure the shaft diameter and the recess and try using a lubricated "O" ring. Our Manatee had the same misuse of packing, I installed a 1/8" X 1 1/4" "O" ring and it sealed without a drop of water coming out of it. The bracket on the bottom of the rudder looks like it has a lot of play in it from your photo. You need to find out what are the design tolerances.

 

[overgill]

The inboard rudder post sealing assemble doesn't look like it was designed to seal with packing. I would try cleaning it up and remove the packing out of the cap. measure the shaft diameter and the recess and try using a lubricated "O" ring. Our Manatee had the same misuse of packing, I installed a 1/8" X 1 1/4" "O" ring and it sealed without a drop of water coming out of it. The bracket on the bottom of the rudder looks like it has a lot of play in it from your photo. You need to find out what are the design tolerances.

I have to agree, it doesn't look like it was designed to seal with the packing. Thing is the prop shaft was set up the same way. It was replaced last year with with a dripless. The left over hardware also has packing?? It is basically the twin to the rudder set up. None of this stuff looks remotely new so I am left to assume it is original. If you are right then to install an O ring I need to access the end of the shaft this is not simple.

You are also right regarding the rudder heel, I was hoping to bore it out and press a bushing and call it a day. It is worn more than a bushing will forgive. It is now to be bored to a larger size and a machined insert turned and pressed and again bored to the original 1 1/2. All in a days work.

I will have to talk it around about the stuffing verse O ring.

With all the 32 IGs in the TF you would think someone has repacked a rudder.

Thanks HiDHo ,,,good input

 

[Capt.Bill11]

It most definitely seals with packing. Just pull out the old packing, clean everything up, repack with GFO, lube the threads with say Super Lube or TefGel and seal it up.

 

[O C Diver]

Have the same stuffing nut assembly on my dive boat. Dig out the old packing rope, replace with 2 loops around the shaft, and tighten it down till she stops leaking. Simple design that works well.

Ted

 

[overgill]

Thanks OC

I agree it has to be packing, in trying to picture an O ring in this application it may seem to fit but it would be directly in contact with the threads in the cap, installing the cap would probably tear it up. The set up HiDHo has is unique would be interesting to see it.

I did not have the boring tool needed so I had to send the heel piece out, it should be back later this week. With that I can put this thing back together.

This week its a new transducer, problem for another thread, getting the old one out,,,that%^& 5200

Thanks for the sanity check

OC earlier you said you do 1500 hours in about three years! I did 160 last year and considered it a busy season,,your out there a lot.

 

[overgill]

Final solution

OK it took a wile but I finaly have the rudder heel piece ready to reinstall. I did not have the boring tool needed to line bore the heel piece so I had to farm it out to a friend who did a great job. The original plan was to bore it out and press in a bushing however it was worn far to much to use a standard bushing. A custom bushing had to be cut from bar stock (485 naval brass) and pressed into the heel piece. Photos pretty much say it all.

Thank you all for your knowlage.

 

[dwhatty]

Great job. Can you make another one for me?