Albin Build Quality

[O C Diver]

I have come to the conclusion that with all the imported (Chinese) junk these days, that almost anything you can by that is "made in Canada" is an assurance of superior quality. Nice to know that someone in NA is still doing quality work the old fashion way. Sure wish Canadians would manufacture a lot more items; they would have my business.

Not really. We have ourselves to blame for the quality we buy from china. Much of what we get, the importer specified price 1st and quality 2nd. The Diesel Ducks from China appear to be of very good quality and clearly show that China can produce quality products at a higher price. My guess is you don't see much of poor quality out of Canada because they can't compete against China if price is more important than quality.

Ted

 

[Delta_JimS]

Ted,

In the end, I think we are saying the same thing. When I buy a hose nozzle I expect it to work out of the box and similarly a year from now.
I don't expect it to last 5-7 years like the one my dad bought at the local hardware store way back when, but I do expect to get a couple of months out of it at least.
For me anyway, it seems to have become much, much harder to find everyday items that hold up for any length of time and the selection is often just a choice between junk or another vendor's junk.

Many things can be disposable throw-aways, and that's OK, but a number of daily items would be nice to hold up for awhile like the Ducks.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Real Albins were made in Sweden and had no build problems.

Swedish built Albin owners don't even know what a blister is.

 

[kulas44]

I've worked on and been around enough older taiwanese built boats that I am positive they are all junk, until proven otherwise. But I suspect all old boats that way, some brands less than others. What is even worse is a lot of the "repairs" I've seen. I dont know how many times I've told people "there is no pour in fix for rot" only to have them regailing some miracle sauce next week. Try telling a krogen owner that the only way you will fix his leaking "black iron" fuel tanks is to R & R them. No miracle goop, ever. The pourable foam you're looking at is typical of someone not knowing how to use it. it is VERY temp sensitive, to cold and expansion will be delayed then it expands to fast and will produce large voids. Poured to hot and it expands and fills good but later shrinks, a lot. It likes about 70 to 80 degrees and around a 1 minute "pot set". Small pours are better than doing one large pour. I've used a lot of it, in all weights. 2 lb is cheapest and most popular, I like the 4 lb better, and have used 16 lb, its almost like plywood when cured and fills every gap and crevice, nasty stuff to clean up. All the ice boxes I've built have been constructed of 4 inches of polyurethane foam board (R-Board is my favorite and cheap) Then if need be are foamed in place, big ice boxes can be subjected to severe stress loading in rough seas. Coming from together is not good. PSNeeld, If I were doing this ice box I would consider removeing it and adding as much ins. to it as possible. If that is not possible I would try repouring it with 4 lb foam.

 

[Moby Nick]

Well, Billyfeet, the only Albins I've seen in recent years are the Albin-25, five of them. Forty-some years ago I saw a larger Albin moored at Michigan City, Indiana. She was about 35-40 ft LOA; an all grey "Trawler" which looked suitable for a cruise to Nord Kap (extreme N cape of Norway).

 

[psneeld]

My point exactly....looks can be deceiving....even the owner of that old Albin may not have known the true build quality of that boat.

As to what's under your paneling, inside your glassed over stringers, etc...etc...could be something even the manufacturer would be surprised at....but maybe not the daily worker or even his super.

As they say...a good trim man can make up for a lousy rough carpenter.

I was surprised to hear OCDiver say that about a Cherubini...in my circles...Cherubini's rep beats all but a few brands we see tossed around here for quality...and again ...cosmetics covering poor workmanship/design/construction detail.

Though his, nor my boat won't fall apart in normal service...I just giggle when someone says "man...those ******'s are built like tanks" and immediately know his total knowledge of that brand of boats is based on his buddies lack of knowledge and urban boating myth.

And I'm not talking out my a** like I know some are drooling to prove. I have taken a hull section from some boat like a Shamrock often described as a "tank" and showed a similar piece of hull from some POS that just got smashed up and dropped in a dumpster...same layup.

Here's a pics of a Shamrock (previous company I worked for) that I rebuilt the bow on after it was crushed by a barge. Goes to show that a boat can be dismantled by many means and rebuilt better than new.

 

[Moby Nick]

So, to recap; I bought an old Albin built in Sweden four decades ago, because my search across the internet for a low-power Diesel Cruiser disclosed nothing but glowing opinions about the Albin-25.

You, OTROH, having what seems considerable experience in the building of boats, chose an Albin built in China, and are now disappointed in its quality. That seems to have been a rather dumb move on your part.

 

[psneeld]

So, to recap; I bought an old Albin built in Sweden four decades ago, because my search across the internet for a low-power Diesel Cruiser disclosed nothing but glowing opinions about the Albin-25.

You, OTROH, having what seems considerable experience in the building of boats, chose an Albin built in China, and are now disappointed in its quality. That seems to have been a rather dumb move on your part.

You know nothing about me or my economic decisions...and why they had to be made.

Calling my purchase dumb after your posts that lacked the oversight that there are different models., builders, years, etc. in many a manufacturer..instead of just taking in my post of that 18 inches of foam in dead space with an air gap in between the foam and the icebox is poor construction, it seems that the shoe in on the other foot. Especially if I got it at the right price and after correcting the manufacturer's flubs...may sell it at a handsome profit.



I have made the point (s) I wanted to make...especially the point that until you tear into a boat, public opinion is usually brand blinded....so before brand loyal types get too out of hand......

 

[kulas44]

I like bumping heads with ps, but this time I fully concur. Even some of the most highly revered boats built by supposedly high end builders make me shake my head and wonder what they were thinking when I get behind the "pretty" and into the real structure. Just last week I helped a fellow captain with yearly maintenance (bottom paint, zinks, etc.) and when I looked at his 1 year old props I had to ask what the problem was. He thought it was electrolisis but after closer inspection it turned out to be severe cavitation causing implosion craters. His props are junk. This is on a custom 40 foot offshore skiff built by one of the best builders in south Louisiana. Twin 450 Cummins c series engines, 30 x 30 4 blade nibral props (expensive ???). The welder that built the V-struts used 5/8 by 4 inch stainless strap for the strut legs,,, and left them square edged. No NACA section whatsoever. The resulting airation causes cavitation at higher speeds that this boat normally runs at. The props are in shallow tunnells with not enough clearance to the hull which masks the problem. The right size props and about an hour with a grinder on the struts would have saved him 3 sets of props. VERY poor design and inexusable from a respected builder. The industry is rife with things like this.

 

[Billyfeet]

Moby Nick, I just wanted to explain the situation concerning the ALBIN name. You seemed to be upset that the "good name" of your 25ft. Swedish built boat was being challenged by psneld. I hope that the knowledge that one ALBIN is not like all others makes you rest easy!

 

[jimbob]

Is there a way to tell where a particular boat was built? such as some id on the boat it self. looking at a 36' albin and would like to know country of origin before hand. Much prefer the Swedes myself

 

[seasalt007]

36 Trawler is Taiwan....70's and 80's. 36 Express Trawler is US...mid 90's to mid 2000's

 

[jimbob]

thanks seasalt thats what i was looking for. NEED to be real carful

 

[Moby Nick]

I'm not upset about anything, Billyfeet. My first objection to the OP was to the notion that filling an air space with chunks of foam accomplished nothing more than leaving the air space alone. In reality, ANYTHING that reduces air convection will reduce heat loss.

I'm surprised psneeld bought his Albin without taking his Sawzall along to check the build quality.

 

[eseyoung]

But the real question for Scott is what anchor did Albin put on it?

 

[psneeld]

I'm not upset about anything, Billyfeet. My first objection to the OP was to the notion that filling an air space with chunks of foam accomplished nothing more than leaving the air space alone. In reality, ANYTHING that reduces air convection will reduce heat loss.

I'm surprised psneeld bought his Albin without taking his Sawzall along to check the build quality.

It OK you don't get either point...my guess is others don't also.

But forums are where you can discuss things and more about not buying an Albin..it's more for the next guy that wants to do something with a similar model will have some info on what he might find...

Lot's of people object to having the kind of boat they own (even though it's been clearly pointed out the pitfall of that bad assumption) not talked nicely about...I got over that a long time ago when I started to really get into the nut's and bolts of boat ownership/maintenance.

 

[rwidman]

I have not taken a sawzall or crowbar to mine. I see no need to. The way it's built, nearly everything that might require service can be accessed by removing a few screws. I have owned it and worked on it enough to have seen it pretty much inside out.

 

[Capt Kangeroo]

While many here have probably read this, there is a short article in Passage Maker magazine that gives a bit of background on the Taiwanese built trawlers. For those interested google "Taiwan's Venerable Trawlers" Passage Maker magazine 1998 for a pdf of the article. The bulk of the article everyone pretty much knows but there are some interesting tidbits regarding specific brands.

The main points the author makes is that any make or model could have been built by any of the Taiwan yards with quality of construction ranging from excellent to simply abysmal. The actual brand of boat means very little which is the point I think Psneeld was trying to make, it "just so happens" his is an Albin. I too get extremely frustrated fixing things that were not done properly at the factory and even more so on a boat from a supposedly high end builder that should have known better.

Essentially throughout the 70's into the early 80's it was a big free-for-all and anyone who could nail two boards together joined in the fray. Not only was building small trawlers new but so was building with Fiberglas so engineering on the fly by trial and error simply had to produce some lemons. Fortunately most of the actual "designs" were solid and seaworthy having been designed by North American architects, it was the quality of construction that suffered horribly from one boat to the next.

Albin at least tried to get a handle on quality control by using well known established yards like Chung Hwa and having it's own Engineers and architects on site to oversee production. According to the article however they are no less guilty than any of the others in farming work out to the questionable small yards when it was expedient to do so. Shortsightedly they also allowed the use of their molds for rebranding by others who produced look-alikes of dubious quality. I also highly doubt that the Albin Architects and Engineers were present at these other small yards hence even greater disparities in quality between their builds.

I think the other issue that gets overlooked is the age of the boats. As the industry matured and the initial buyer frenzy died away they all learned, albeit slowly, and as time passed the quality of construction improved. The problems that remain today such as leaky windows, rotting cores and rusted tanks can be found on virtually any brand and are not a build issue but a maintenance one which sadly will be here forever.

Incidentally, my prize possession, "the Gunnert floor freezer on my Albin" has 4" foam cut to size properly and glued to the freezer sides. Hardly enough insulation but at least it was fastened appropriately.

 

[kulas44]

An old story, maybe even true, was about the yard that built KK 42s in the late 70s. Apparently csm and fab mat became scarce. CSM was the filler fiber between roving and fabmat to reduce print thru and fill voids in hand layup construction. They used old news print during that time (???) instead of CSM. But the kicker was that the quality of the news paper being used was questioned by the onsight oversear.

 

[dannc]

There is an article about Flemming and the boats he worked on over the years in the latest Professional Boat Builder magazine that touches on this subject.

Not surprisingly, when Flemming was in the yard inspecting boat builds, they had good quality boats regardless of the boat brand or build location. But if he or someone interested in quality control was not present, build quality suffered. He mentioned having quality control issues on some of the early Flemming brand boats.

Just throwing odd blocks of foam into a space to try to insulate a fridge, freezer or house wall section is just bull scat. It is better than nothing but not by much.

Later,
Dan

 

[Capt Kangeroo]

I was wondering why I could read the Taiwan Times on the side of my boat. The KK 42's among others were built in the Chein HWA yard next door to the Chung HWA yard which are essentially the same company. Albin used both.

 

[seasalt007]

I have been in several yards in Taiwan. To name a few, Tao Chao Bros. in Taipei who built the CT brand, Hi Star in Kaohsiung, and Mason and Baba in Tainan. Capt. K is right on. It has been my experience, however, in dealing with these yards and others that the Chinese are a very exacting people who will build at the level of quality you are willing to pay for. You want a cheap boat, they will build it. You want a quality boat, they will build it. The three yards that I named above built very good boats.

My most memorable experience with one of the low end yards was opening the engine hatch and seeing the word "Volvo" stenciled on the bottom. They had used the engine crate to make the hatch.

Probably the best yard that I saw in the late 80's was the Hi Star yard. It was brand new with a floatation tank and a temperature/humidity controlled lay up building. Everything was first class.

Right about then, late 80's the New Taiwanese dollar was revalued from 40 NT's to 1 USD to 20 NT's to 1 USD. That, for all intents and purposes, was the end of the Taiwanese boat building industry. They lost the competitive advantage over US builders. Not long after that the PRC starting establishing Open Economic Regions and Special Economic Zones along the coast and the rest is history.

 

[psneeld]

There is an article about Flemming and the boats he worked on over the years in the latest Professional Boat Builder magazine that touches on this subject.

Not surprisingly, when Flemming was in the yard inspecting boat builds, they had good quality boats regardless of the boat brand or build location. But if he or someone interested in quality control was not present, build quality suffered. He mentioned having quality control issues on some of the early Flemming brand boats.

Just throwing odd blocks of foam into a space to try to insulate a fridge, freezer or house wall section is just bull scat. It is better than nothing but not by much.

Later,
Dan

Thank you...

Especially for pointing out the OBVIOUS point I was trying to make.

and also to Capt. Kangaroo for seeing the fallacy that just hearing what some say about their boats and CERTAINLY the utter rubbish that is preached at the boat show and the "boat show" educated crowd can disappoint in the wink of an eye.

True that few boats are "perfect"...heck most are OK...especially at the price point.....BUT....

I would have been happy to cut open my icebox and only find 1 inch of insulation adequately glued to the sides....but to just find random pieces of foam that never appeared to be glued on and the wastefulness and obstruction to doing other runs through that space where 18 inches of random block foam were just tossed in....well that make me wonder about if they had the same mentality with blocks of wood where my stringers are supposed to be.

 

[rwidman]

................but to just find random pieces of foam that never appeared to be glued on and the wastefulness and obstruction to doing other runs through that space where 18 inches of random block foam were just tossed in....well that make me wonder about if they had the same mentality with blocks of wood where my stringers are supposed to be.

Are you worried enough to sell the boat and by a different one?

Is there a possibility that this was the work of a previous owner? Is there a possibility that the foam was originally glued to the ice box and cam unglued over many years?

 

[psneeld]

Going all the way back to post #2...to those that got it thanks...

Those that might buy an older Albin 36/40/43 might want to take note....whether to buy or when they want to work on it/upgrade, whatever...

For those that really didn't know what I was trying to say...sorry...maybe next time.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ps. I understand your frustrations and disappointment BUT there is some good in the situation.
1) You now know the situation exists and are able to proceed.
-I can picture it now...just like it was yesterday.
Somewhere in Taiwan....The workday is ending, it's pleasantly warm and Mr. Woo needs somewhere to dispose his foam off-cuts. The trash pail for foam is on the other side of the yard and Mrs. Woo has a nice piece of fish for dinner tonight. It's not dirty or used foam, just off-cuts. Right here is fine...

"Zai Jian".
2)You now have a new "Have I got a story for you".
3)You now a have a new "void" you can use for whatever (Be creative)
4)You now have the makings or at least the start of the makings for doing THIS (I particularly enjoyed "Making the steam" about the 2:00 mark.):
Re-using - Recycling Scrap Foam - left over from Foam Manufacturing - YouTube
5) If this type of situation had not occurred to any one of us before, whatever would we have to talk about?

 

[Donsan]

I was wondering why I could read the Taiwan Times on the side of my boat. The KK 42's among others were built in the Chein HWA yard next door to the Chung HWA yard which are essentially the same company. Albin used both.

There is a 1999 Yahoo post which discusses this. The claim is Chung Hwa, Chien Hwa and Fu Hwa were part of a 3 yard group owned by Y. F. Lee. Chung Hwa was located in Kaohsiung and Chien Hwa and Fu Hwa were located in Taipei.

Chung Hwa built the CHB 34 aft cabin, 45 Sedan, 46 aft cabin, called a sundeck when the aft cabin has no walk around, the 48, the Vantare line of wide body yachts, the LaFitte sailboat and the Krogen 54 ....among others.

Fu Hwa built the 34 sedan model, the Krogen 38 sailboat and the Krogen
Manatee ....among other models.

Chien Hwa built the Krogen 42, the Silhouette and other models.

Only Chung Hwa survived.

Here is the link: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CHB/conversations/topics/440

On my Fu Hwa DC, I have been unable to find anywhere the manufacturer is identified other than the original bill of sale and the mfg id within the serial number identification....which oddly the Coast Guard identifies as being an antique wooden boat.

An Albin 40 could have been made by any of these yards or any of the other yards but it is probably impossible to tell where.

 

[psneeld]

Have no idea and don't care....

but the Surveyor did find something that led him to believe that...

Chauson F.R.P. Co. LTD. built the hull (boat).... because that's what he put on my survey.

 

[Donsan]

Chauson F.R.P. Co. LTD. built the hull (boat).... because that's what he put on my survey.

So, the original owner paid for Albin quality and got Chauson F.R.P. quality. Misleading advertising for certain. But, since it was 30 years ago, who cares...as you don't either. But certainly, when you go to sell, you will sell it as an Albin instead of a Chauson. And probably make more profit than the typical original TT 100% markup. Heck, I couldn't even find a Chauson on Yachtworld. Good things it's an Albin!

If you really belief that, here is an informative link on Chauson (aka Ho Hsing): History of Ho Hsing, The First Taiwan Builder of Sundowner Tugs | SailAngle.com

No mention of a 40' model.

Do your due diligence folks......if you can.

 

[rwidman]

So, the original owner paid for Albin quality and got Chauson F.R.P. quality. Misleading advertising for certain.............

You should know that many boat manufacturers don't have factories but have their boats built for them in boatyards, often in the far east. It's not at all uncommon.