Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-22-2012, 03:14 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Albin 36 skeg shoe rot

The bottom of the shoe on the skeg is decomposing. Is there some sort of a filler to fill in this area?

JCDSAIL
__________________
Advertisement

JCDSAIL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 12:52 PM   #2
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,868
Try posting some photos so we can see, sort of, what you mean. Not being an Albin owner we can only guess at what is there.

I suspect though that you will need to do a proper repair, grinding out the bad material and rebuilding it properly. Maybe a high strength filled, thickened epoxy will work but you must still remove the bad stuff for it to get a grip or it too may just add to the problem

Also try looking up the Albin Owners and pose your question there.
Albin Owners Group • Index page
__________________

C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 03:22 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Keel damage

I finally got to take a couple pics of the damaged areas.
It appears that the keel is hollow?
What type of filler should I consider using to fill prior to launching agagin next year?

JCDSAIL
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	keel damage.jpg
Views:	171
Size:	127.6 KB
ID:	13300   Click image for larger version

Name:	keel.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	159.5 KB
ID:	13301   Click image for larger version

Name:	KEELSHOT-002.jpg
Views:	154
Size:	100.8 KB
ID:	13302  
JCDSAIL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 04:46 PM   #4
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCDSAIL View Post
I finally got to take a couple pics of the damaged areas.
It appears that the keel is hollow?
What type of filler should I consider using to fill prior to launching agagin next year?

JCDSAIL
We repaired a rudder and keel that was damaged on our last boat and pretty much followed what C electric said. You have to get down to good material, so start grinding or cut it out. Once you get to solid material, wet out with un-thickened epoxy, fill the rough edges with a thickened epoxy. Immediately start laying up with fiberglass mat with no more than 5 layers. Let it kick, then grind with 80 grit. If you need more mat do it and again no more than 5 layers. Sand with 80 grit and fair with some microballoons then barrier coat. The reason for the maximum of the 5 coats of glass mat is that the thicker the area, the hotter it gets during curring (exothermic reaction). You can loose strength as it was explained to me if it gets to hot. You should be able to do the whole thing in 2 days. I just repaired a transom door with the same process that was cracked and had rot. We just painted today.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	door.jpg
Views:	135
Size:	175.3 KB
ID:	13303   Click image for larger version

Name:	door 1.jpg
Views:	124
Size:	142.6 KB
ID:	13304  
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 05:21 PM   #5
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
If you can let it set for a while that would be a good thing.
To dry out.
Even try a heat lamp. If it isn't dry you will never get epoxy to stick. You will wind up just encasing the water that has soaked into the keel.

I have used the tiger hair or kitty hair to good success.
you can get it at NAPA it is also called Green filler.
It has stranded fiberglass mixed into it.

Then follow Larry's advice.

SD
__________________
If you can't repair it maybe it shouldn't be on the boat
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 08:03 PM   #6
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
I ground a hole into my keel to let about 100 gallons of water out...let her dry after ginding down to clean glass and built it back up with about 30 layers of 6 and 18 oz cloth/roving...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo332.jpg
Views:	162
Size:	197.2 KB
ID:	13314   Click image for larger version

Name:	Photo333.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	191.0 KB
ID:	13315  
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 12:59 PM   #7
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,739
By all means grind all the bad stuff out and re-glass it. My personal preference is to use polyester resin as I find it easier to work with.
But you can also use epoxy.
Use overlapping layers of mat material.
I wouldn't use any fillers other than to fair it out if needed when you're finished.
Then cover it with several coats of gelcoat (if you use polyester resin).
doesn't have to be fancy as only the fish will see it.
__________________
Jay Leonard
Attitude Adjustment
40 Albin
Mystic,Ct. /New Port Richey,Fl
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 02:57 PM   #8
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by jleonard View Post
By all means grind all the bad stuff out and re-glass it. My personal preference is to use polyester resin as I find it easier to work with.
But you can also use epoxy.
Use overlapping layers of mat material.
I wouldn't use any fillers other than to fair it out if needed when you're finished.
Then cover it with several coats of gelcoat (if you use polyester resin).
doesn't have to be fancy as only the fish will see it.
If you're going to use polyester resin, which is fine, I suggest that you use an epoxy barrier coat such as Interlux Interprotect 2000 vs the gelcoat. The epoxy barrier coat will prevent the repaired area from water absorption which the gel-coat does not do as effectively.
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 04:38 PM   #9
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
heck..half the pros now are recommending vinylester instead of epoxy if you get the right one..and don't worry about a barrier coat.

me I'm still an epoxy guy for "old work repair"...buy that's me and the other half....
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2012, 07:10 AM   #10
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
".half the pros now are recommending vinylester instead of epoxy if you get the right one."

Especa1lly the "pros" that are quoting a fixed price for the job .

Epoxy is expensive !

A secondary bond is only as strong as the bond material.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2012, 09:05 AM   #11
Guru
 
ARoss's Avatar
 
City: Chocowinity NC
Vessel Name: My Yuki
Vessel Model: 1973 Marine Trader 34
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
I just repaired a transom door with the same process that was cracked and had rot. We just painted today.

LarryM: I see you've gone to the "dark side" by painting the teak trim on that transom door. Are you re-doing all exterior teak? Any regrets? I have started by painting out some grab-rails that were a PITA to mask/sand/Cetol and so I went white. Still have teak trim on the flybridge that might not last long.
ARoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 12:43 AM   #12
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,868
I wasn't going to add to this as you have had good advice, but I'll just say this should be done properly. This is not a place for bandaids.

Grind the broken fiberglass out , feather the edges and rebuild it. it doesn't have to be cosmeticly beautiful. If you can't do it I'm sure you can find someone who won't charge and arm and a leg but will do a good job.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 10:45 AM   #13
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARoss View Post
LarryM: I see you've gone to the "dark side" by painting the teak trim on that transom door. Are you re-doing all exterior teak? Any regrets? I have started by painting out some grab-rails that were a PITA to mask/sand/Cetol and so I went white. Still have teak trim on the flybridge that might not last long.
Actually, I hadn't pulled the tape yet. After 5 coats, it's hard to tell. We have painted the eye brow and exterior of the pilot house doors and have absolutely no regrets. We have been using a 1 part polyurethane, off white.
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 02:41 PM   #14
Veteran Member
 
Capt. Joe's Avatar
 
City: Margaritaville
Country: Canada
Vessel Model: Wittholz 40 Passage
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 75
Yes, the keel is hollow unless someone had poured in concrete.
There is usually a falso sole over the keel sump.
Water ingression is common and if the boat has been in northern climates, then laminate fractures due to winter freeze exacerbate the situation.
Someone had already said this and it can not be over stated that there is only one way to repair this kind of laminate damage; properly or not at all!
The water must be allowed to drain and the laminate needs drying time.

Also, are these superficial pressure-washer marks, or gelcoat cracks:



I have seen gelcoat fractures not unlike what we see above. Hope that's not the case here, which would mean the laminate has been wet long enough to lose structural stiffness and is suffering from excessive flexing.

Do not mean to scare, but have a surveyor or a fiberglass expert come over and use moisture meter and acoustical sounding, before you waste your time doing anything. You need to know how wet the laminate is and how far on both sides of the keelbox.

By the way, that's not the keel bottom "decomposing" that is filler someone had already micky moused over older damage....
__________________
Capt. Joe
CruisingDog blog
Capt. Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 03:14 PM   #15
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
Capt. Joe
Are you refering to the pic psneeld posted or the origional by JCDSAIL?

RE. your comment about Keel bottom decomposing

SD
__________________
If you can't repair it maybe it shouldn't be on the boat
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 04:04 PM   #16
Veteran Member
 
Capt. Joe's Avatar
 
City: Margaritaville
Country: Canada
Vessel Model: Wittholz 40 Passage
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperdude View Post
Capt. Joe
Are you refering to the pic psneeld posted or the origional by JCDSAIL?
The one I am referring to is the one in my post, which is the edited version of the original posted by JCDSAIL - do you not see it in my post?
__________________
Capt. Joe
CruisingDog blog
Capt. Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 06:20 PM   #17
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
From what I have read...moisture meters are a crapshoot when it comes to hydrolysis issues...only coring has been recommended and I'll vouch for that...my surveyor and moisture meter struck out completely when it came to finding my hydrolysis issue.

Not sure about acoustical sounding....non of the reference material reading I have been doing talks about it in hull issues...not saying it isn't valid...just have to research that a bit more.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 09:41 AM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Capt. Joe's Avatar
 
City: Margaritaville
Country: Canada
Vessel Model: Wittholz 40 Passage
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
From what I have read...moisture meters are a crapshoot when it comes to hydrolysis issues...only coring has been recommended and I'll vouch for that...my surveyor and moisture meter struck out completely when it came to finding my hydrolysis issue.
Not sure about acoustical sounding....non of the reference material reading I have been doing talks about it in hull issues...not saying it isn't valid...just have to research that a bit more.
With all due respect, you need to be more careful regarding where and what you are reading.
Moisture metering devices have been employed as a tried and true, accepted instrument in our industry for nearly three decades! (A new devices currently being developed is infrared thermography.)
As with any technical instrument, a certain amount of skill and experience must be possessed by the hand using a moisture meter.
Your surveyor "struck out" because of incompetence and not because a flaw in the tool! And, I am sorry but it is not fair for you to portray a good instrument in such negative manner, all derived from little knowledge gained by "From what you have read"!

If you do not know what acoustical sounding is, then clearly your surveyor have also struck out in the second major technical portion of an appropriately conducted marine survey, which is the sounding. Sounding is done with a particular weight sounding hammer and the trick is where the surveyor's experience is, when interpreting the sounds received in his or her ears.
The survey report should expressly, in writing and very thoroughly state what moisture reading and what acoustical sounding results were obtained on all accessible laminate components of the boat.
The procedure of a well conducted marine survey takes time, and employs the metering device first, which identifies regions of moisture. In a used boat, we are looking for readings which are considered above what is normal, gradual deterioration. Acoustical sounding then further clarifies the extent of the wetting found by the meter, which may turn out to be normal, may be a cause for action or may be extensive saturation damage.
Aside from following the moisture meter, acoustical sounding is also carried out across any and all accessible laminate surfaces of the vessel, including exterior and interior components, in order to discover delamination issues that are not resultant of moisture.
The third part of the marine survey is the visual observation. This obviously is quite limited regarding being able to discover defects in areas other than those that are already severely progressed.

When I started out, we only had sounding at our hands. With the use of moisture meters, we can now detect laminate issues while in early stages of development and before becoming a wide spread deficiency, thus saving boat owners substantial expenses.

BTW, when dealing with fiberglass reinforced polyester (FRP) laminates, "hydrolysis" is almost never seen. The ingression of moisture into single series as well as cored laminates is simply referred to as wetting, core-rot or saturation (because true dissolution does not take place). Yes, dissolution, or hydrolysis of the polyester resin bonding the glass fibers can occur due to water soluble components breaking down in the resin, but requires longer than most of our larger boats have time to sit around and decay.....

Capt. Joseph G. Berta, MMS, CMS
Principal Surveyor
MSOL Marine Surveyors & Consultants
905 955-4449
www.marinesupportonline.com
www.bertamarineconsultants.com

__________________
Capt. Joe
CruisingDog blog
Capt. Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 10:38 AM   #19
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
Here's just one ore of the hundreds of articles and professionals I have talked too about the subject...

Moisture meter for osmosis and hydrolysis This article is a summary. We are working on a full translation of our Dutch article. This article is written as a part of our ongoing research into osmosis and hydrolysis in GRP hulls. A good text on blisters is: Gelcoat Blisters, diagnosis, repair & prevention by the Gougeon Brothers.
To print this article, click on PDF or on Print for a paper- and inkt friendly version.
A moisture meter can give you a rough indication of the risk a hull has to develop blisters, osmosis or hydrolysis problems. In our opinion it's an educated guess, but unfortunately there is no better method to determine this risk.
A moisture meter will only give an indication of the moisture content of a hull. With our meters, you can very roughly divide the reading by ten to find the actual moisture content. The moisture content in itself is not a very good indication of the risk of osmosis. We suggest that you take multiple readings above and below the waterline, and compare your findings. For the average boat, a difference of 10% between the readings suggests that the laminate has absorbed a reasonably low amount of water. A reasonable prediction is that this hull is unlikely to develop problems in the next few years.
For old boats, which have stayed in the water for longer periods, the difference might be increased alittle, to say 15%. If a one year old hull has allready absorbed more than 10% difference, be aware!



I do my homework and as to tapping the hull....yes and no again...only as good as the surveyor and as bad as the delam.


And if the term "hydrolysis" is being misused....I apologize....I'm just using it in the same way hundred of professionals in the GRP pipe and tank business as well as the marine industry use it (maybe not all surveyors though). I know it may be misused in many cases...and I'm no chemist.... I'm just learning and repeating what I hear and read from lot's of respected pro's out there.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 10:46 AM   #20
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
I'll side with Mr. Psneeld ... moisture meters have become the talisman of silver hammer surveyors and continue to impress the villagers with their electronic wizardry. No doubt someday they will be consigned to the shelves alongside the Heidelberg electric belt.

Moisture meters were developed for wood and grain and have a good history of reasonable accuracy in those applications, reasonable for field use anyway. But thre is a world of difference between FRP and wood or grain. A quick review of the literature on marine moisture measurement shows it to be almost exclusively written by those who sell the units and surveyors who sell the use of them.

Thermal imaging offers what may be the best chance to identify areas of delamination or moisture intrusion and we use it when we suspect problems on FRP hulls. Even then there is considerable "art" involved in the process with regard to internal and external temperature gradients and environmental conditions such as air temperature, sunlight and shadow.

Ultrasonic testing is routine and we use it for thickness gauging of metallic hull plating and piping. I use a small unit when I suspect problems and if something shows up I call in a class approved surveyor to confirm and document the condition. Using ultrasonics to survey an FRP hull requires a specialized device and more training than the normal small boat surveyor has at his disposal.

Anything by an alphabet surveyor beyond an hour or two spent tap tap tapping on the hull is (in my opinion) nothing more than show. Even the legitimate class surveyors(ABS, Lloyd's, DNV, etc.) call in specialist NDTcontractors when a potential problem area is suspected.
__________________

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012