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Old 11-25-2009, 03:28 PM   #1
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New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Alright....I had my motor stolen right off the back of my dinghy....can't stand thieves. *But that is beside the point.

I am now looking to replace it. *I have pretty much narrowed down my search for a replacement to Mercury and Yamaha.....and leaning towards Mercury simply because of price. *Do any of you prefer one over the other??? *And I am willing to listen to any other brand recommendations although it would be a hard sell....


Another question.....I have an AB 290. *It's max rated HP on the data plate is 15hp which is what I previously had(Merc 15hp 2 stroke). *The 20hp versions of the same brand weigh exactly the same(much like the old 9.9 to 15hp...basically the same motor with a different fuel system) as the 15hp....I am assuming for the same reasons as the paranthetical examples.....whoa....that was some big words......anyway, that extra 5hp sure wouldn't hurt my feeling and since there is no added weight....can anyone argue against it???.....please keep it scientific and spare me the "what's the big hurry" stuff....




Alright....one more....do they still make 2 stroke engines??? *I think I kinda know the answer to this question but I honestly would prefer a 2 stroke simply for weight reasons(which is likely why my engine was so easy to steal in the first place). *I am thinking they likely still make 2 strokes.....just not for the US market. *Would it be that difficult to get my hands on a grey market 2 stroke???


TIA!!!!


-- Edited by Baker on Wednesday 25th of November 2009 04:33:01 PM
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:19 PM   #2
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New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

In this neck of the woods, the "which brand" answer is usually made pretty obvious by what's used on the majority of boats. For recreational outboards, my observation is that it's pretty much a tie between Honda and Yamaha. Brands like Mercury, Johnson, etc are so rare in our marina that they grab your attention when you see one.

I recall on our floatplane trips to places like Petersburg, Alaska where there are a lot of outboard-powered commercial fishboats in the 20-27 foot range used in the local waters that almost every one of them was powered by Yamaha. I would expect that as Honda advanced their four stroke line into more powerful engines that they are popular there, now, too.

We have Yamaha outboards, a 90hp two-stroke on our 17' Arima and a 4hp four-stroke on the Livingston on our GB. We bought the Arima in 1987 and it is still running as well as it did when we bought it. I have friends with Hondas and they have had the same experience.

While I know Mercury has improved their lineup--- in some cases using Yamaha base engines for their Mercury-branded units--- I would not buy a Mercury. I've known too many people who have had problems with them.

As to four-stroke vs. two-stroke, I prefer four-stroke. No smoke, much better fuel efficiency,*it's not dumping unburned fuel into the water with the exhaust,*etc. They do tend to weigh more for a given horsepower than a two-stroke and they usually cost more.

There is some new two-stroke technology that makes these engines as efficient and clean as a four-stroke, but I've not heard if it's available yet on a production engine. And if it is available, I don't know how these engines compare price-wise.

Given that some states like California have made the sale of new two-stroke engines illegal, it's just a matter of time before this kind of legislation eventually creeps its way around the whole*country. I don't know that it will reach the point where existing two-stroke engines will be outlawed, but given the way things are going it wouldn't surprise me if this is coming, too. After all, California recently told the owners of the sailing ship "Lady Washington" that they could no longer bring the ship into California waters because it's Detroit engine doesn't meet the new emissions standards. Given that the "Lady Washington" spends its winterss in California giving rides which generates half their revenue to maintain the ship, this was quite a blow. Their only recourse is to re-engine the ship (which they have said is what they're going to do).

So I'd get a four-stroke if for no other reason than avoiding potential environmental hassles down the road. What happens in California will eventually happen even in Texas......



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 25th of November 2009 05:23:12 PM
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Old 11-25-2009, 05:47 PM   #3
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Hiya,
** I agree with old fish guy about there's no law BUT maybe your insurance company will give you grief if you ever had a claim and your dinghy was "overpowered".* Don't know but they seem to use every loophole possible to not pay out on a claim.
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:25 PM   #4
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Is weight your most important criteria? If so, the following anecdote:

I used a Merc 15 on my inflatable for years. It was sized correctly (per the manuf plate) and when things were new was the right size for the use. I added weight to the dingy over the years and the 15 was less appropriate, so when it died of old age, I went to the Merc dealer for a replacement. I use davits, they have a capacity limit. The Merc dealer, after hearing my description of what my use and the limits of my davits was, recommended I NOT buy Merc, and sent me to the Yamaha dealer, where I bought a 20. His comment was that Merc had fallen behind other 2 stroke manufacturers and Yamaha was the best in that size. Weight being a major factor, he kept me in 2 strokes, as for the same weight I would get far more hp. My wife was so happy with the extra hp that she authorized a move up to a RIB, but that is another story altogether.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:18 PM   #5
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Four strokes are just plain stupid for less than 30hp when really excellent 2 strokes are availible and the Yamadogs of 8 to 25hp are with little or no doubt the best small outboards ever made. I really wish they made a 3 or 4hp twin but they don't. But if it's a 4 stroke I think Suzuki is best despite what Marin sees in his marina. I remember he said all trawlers there had all chain rode. The Mercury 2 strokes are dated in design but that dosn't mean they are'nt good engines. We have lots of 4 stroke mercs here and people seem to really like them but Marin's right** .. Yamadogs are really good engines and Suzukis are only slightly better. Hondas have propellers that are too small. I think they are trying to reduce prop pitch issues. As to what you see where its just a matter of how successful the local dealer is and what he is selling. In Ketchikan and Sitka about 50% of the OBs you see are Suzukis and they have strong dealers there. John.... if you want a really good buy on a late used engine get a 15hp Johnson. The white ones. They are Suzukis. Kinda like buying a Toyota by getting a Geo. Thats what my ex-wife did and she's got about 250K on it. Obviously you don't do as Marin does or you wouldn't have posted the question. If your'e going to buy a new one there's no bad engines out there** ..* except 4 strokes.

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Old 11-25-2009, 10:06 PM   #6
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New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
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If your'e going to buy a new one there's no bad engines out there** ..* except 4 strokes.
Don't forget to put fresh water down for your dinosaur, Eric * To say that four strokes make no sense indicates to me a non-familiarity with modern*four-strokes.

I'm not implying that two-strokes are no good.* We have two of them on our Arima and the Yamaha 90 has performed flawlessly for some 22 years although we don't use that boat near as much as we used to when there were still salmon worth catching in Puget Sound.* But in my opinion*the advantages of a modern four-stroke outweigh the advantages of a two-stroke except for weight and cost.* Given that about all I see on outboard boats, large and small. these days are four-strokes I'm guessing that my opinion is shared by a lot of folks.

We went through the same*quandry as John faces, although on a smaller scale, when we were deciding on an outboard for the 9'*Livingston on our Grand Banks.* Our concern was the original teak swim step on the boat--- I didn't want to place undue stress on what were then 26 year-old teak strips (that are now 36 years old).* So I wanted to keep the motor weight down as low as possible.* We could have gotten a slightly more powerful two-stroke engine but opted for a lower powered four-stroke of the same weight because we decided the four-stroke was the better engine.* No smoke, no mixing of oil and fuel (I realize larger two strokes like our Yamaha 90*do this automatically), better fuel efficiency,*and no dumping a fair amount of the raw*fuel that goes into the engine*out through the exhaust into the water.* That plus the environmental restrictions that are looming on the horizon for this state made the four stroke the smarter choice for us.

Another advantage, as it was explained to me, is that for a given size a four-stroke puts out more torque.* Which means that, at least in theory, a smaller four-stroke can generatethe same thrust from the prop as a larger two-stroke since it can turn a coarser prop.**For example, an Arima dealer we know*said he could put a 90 hp two stroke on a boat or a 70 hp four stroke, and the overall performance would be the same, but the four stroke would use less fuel.* The two-stroke would accelerate faster onto the step, but both engines would push the boat at the same speed.

This advantage is probably not worth considering in smaller engine sizes like four though ten or fifteen horsepower, but it is apparently worth considering when you get up into the fifty or higher power ratings.* At the time we bought our Arima four-stroke engines were still considered a low-power engine, ten horsepower or so, which is why we went*with the two-stroke 90.* A few years later Honda came out with its 50 hp four-stroke and the horsepower race was on.* Now they're up to what, 275 horsepower or so?* I've been told that the big Hondas today are simply Accord engines mounted vertically.* No wonder the damn things cost $20,000 or so.....


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 25th of November 2009 11:44:10 PM
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:46 PM   #7
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

I am sure this will come with no surprise to you but I would go with a 25hp, Yamaha still makes a two stroke 25 that weighs 105lbs. You can get the Yamahas new in the US, they are rated to run on 100:1 mix. I have read on Yamaha forums this is how they can still sell two strokes, not sure if thats 100% true but it is something that I have seen a few times.
*
I really like my Yamaha four stroke 25 but it is heavy and it seems to lack a little hole shot when compared to a two stroke. I purchased my engine in March 2006 and I have about 330 hours on the engine and it has never given me any trouble.
A major plus with the Yamaha four strokes is the flush port, I am a firm believer in fresh water flush on outboards used in salt water. The flush port makes flushing the engine really easy after use.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:26 PM   #8
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
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A major plus with the Yamaha four strokes is the flush port, I am a firm believer in fresh water flush on outboards used in salt water. The flush port makes flushing the engine really easy after use.
Even our little Yamaha 4hp 4-cycle has this feature and I agree, it makes a very*easy job of flushing the salt out of the cooling system.* I wish our 2-cycle 90 hp Yamaha had this.* We have to use the old*clamp-on fixture which works okay but sprays water all over the place.* And on the smaller engines, the clamp-on units don't fit very well or at all.

*
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:24 AM   #9
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Hi Marin,
Should I give the dino organic water? I just hate it when folks rush off with whatever is new and abandon what has been tried and proven. Our society is an endless train of manias from tail fins on cars to wearing BB hats backwards. Nobody seems to engage their brain*** ..* just the latest fad. And 4 stroke OBs are a fad. If someone tells you about his OB and it's a 4 stroke he will almost always tell you about the fact that it is a 4 stroke when "25hp outboard" is all that needs to be said. Not true. He needs to tell you he is vouge and that HE is not in possession of some dinosaur that only old men have that don't know any better. Well I'd rather think of myself as a man that thinks for himself but I need to guard against chosing things that are opposite of the vouge things just to not be vouge. That would be thinking like the sheep I'm trying not to be. Marin, I do think 97% of OBs are four stroke because it's a mainia but most importantly that's mostly all thats availible. They did not chose them because they are or precieved to be better. I myself have two 4 stroke OBs. A 60hp Suzuki and a 3.5hp Mercury (Tohatsu). The Merc shakes like the devil and the Suzy in sinfully heavy (370lbs). I also have a 40hp Evinrude E-tech, an 8hp Yamaha, a 2hp Yamaha and a 6hp Johnson. The torque issue is a state of tune issue not a 2 or 4 stroke issue. About flushing** .. I flush 99% of the tine** .. same day. I use a plastic garbage can. I have installed a plastic ball valve to drain it after use and use it for 2 to 60hp.
Troy,**** Two thumbs way up! But I think you are right about the 100-1. I run 50-1 on all my 2 strokes except the chain saw** .. that gets Bell Ray synthetic mostly because I can leave it for very long periods of time and it never gums up. Starts always and runs perfect. Yea Marin it's a dino** .. a homlite 360. One Yamaha dealer told me not to run more oil than 100-1 as it will run too lean. Lean (too lean) is not good but I'm sticking my neck out but so far both Yams have run just fine. Marin,*** the "bad engines out there" comment was mostly a joke.

Happy T day all

Eric Henning
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:53 AM   #10
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

I have run Merc 2 strokes for 30+ year.* In fact our Merc 140 hp 2 stroke 1970 and our Mer 7.5 2 stroke 1978 are still running strong.* Each years I put new spark plucks in, and I tend to mix heavy on the oil, 50+ to 1,*which reduces the waer, gives a little more punch but does tend to smoke a bit. 3 years ago we bought a used Livingston with a Merc 20 and 4 hp 2 stroke that and have had no problems with.*
*
I would not buy a 4 stroke as long as*2 strokes are available.* *I think service and parts in your area are very important factors that are equal to the name brand.* I know a lot of people run Yamahas, so Yams would probable be my second choice, but haver not been proven over a long period of time.*

I think the new ethonal gas is creating problems which*is*another plus for the 2 stroke with oil and gas mixed.* *
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:40 PM   #11
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

And 4 stroke OBs are a fad.
Eric---

I'm not going to try to change your mind since you obviously believe what you believe.* But saying four-stroke ouboards are just a fad is sort of like saying jet engines are just a fad and soon we'll all come to our senses and go back to piston engines and propellers.

The issues are pollution and efficiency plus the elimination of the need to mix oil with the fuel.* That's what's pushed the move to four-stroke outboards in the first place, not some desire to be able to brag.* True, when the little four-stroke outboards first started appearing people who had them as sailboat engines and trolling motors made a big deal about that fact.* But today--- and I cannot speak for your neck of the woods--- from the conversations I've been in or have listened to, when someone says they have such-and-such an outboard, it's assumed by everyone in the conversation that it's a four-stroke.

The Yamaha dealer I use in Seattle for parts told me a few years ago that they don't* bother stocking two-stroke Yamahas anymore because hardly anyone even asks about them, let alone buys one.* The dealer will special order a two-stroke--- Yamaha still makes a full line of them---- but they don't want to tie up any money in stocking them.

I will agree with you that abandoning an older technology to chase something new just because it's new doesn't always make sense.* But most of the time, the newer technology offers benefits over the older technology.* The obstacle to its adaptation is not that the new technology is not worth pursuing, but because most people are inherently resistant to change.* If we followed your philosophy to the letter, we'd all be driving around behind a horse and cooking on a wood stove.* Or still using MS/DOS on our computers because ideas like Windows or Macs OS were of no benefit.

So based on what I see around me and what I hear, I would say that the two-stroke outboard is on the way out.* Some states like California are legislating it into history, but most people I know choose a four-stroke because they want the efficiency, less smoke and water pollution, and reduced noise.* The only reason I have heard anyone give these days for buying a two-stroke is the reduced weight for a given power rating.* They generally follow this by saying something like, "Yes, I know, it pollutes like hell and it's noisy and it smokes and I have to mix oil with the fuel.* I'd love to get a four-stroke but it's just too heavy."* (Or sometimes they say "just too expensive.")

It may be that people like tournament bass fishermen still prefer the big two-strokes because of their acceleration power, but I don't know anyone in that sport so I'm just speculating.* And Im not advocating that someone like Phil who has a two-stroke that works very well for him should run out and replace it with a four-stroke.* The trolling motor on our Arima is an old 1978 Evinrude 6hp two-stroke, although it needs to be replaced soon.* And I agree with his point about the advantage of using a type of motor that's popular in your area because parts and service will probably be easier to come by.* In this area, the two most popular brands are Yamaha and Honda, with Mercury a very distant third.* And almost everything I see in terms of what's on newer boats, large and small, is four-stroke.

It's been my experience that dinosaurs are pretty hardy creatures and can survive much longer than you would expect on regular water.* No need to use the expensive high-tech organic water.

*
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:49 PM   #12
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:I run 50-1 on all my 2 strokes except the chain saw** .. that gets Bell
*
I also saw a few mechanics on the Yamaha forum suggesting using 50:1 not 100:1. *


*
Baker I think the Merc and Yamaha 20s were tuned down 25hp models, all the ones I have seen look the same size as a 25.


*


*
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*
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Old 11-26-2009, 06:25 PM   #13
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Don't know who the supplier is, and maybe that's why the brand preference, but last 2 vacations to sunny spots, where the locals are fishing, they all, yes 100% of them, had Yammys. they were all pull start, all 2 strokes, various hp from 30 to 70, and all looking more than a few years old. That was Mexico in 2007 and Costa Rica in 2009.
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:48 PM   #14
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Marin,
What put 4 strokes on the map was emission regulation and the vogueness* of the green issue. Same reason most people buy a Prius** .. so they can go to REI and be in style. Some people would buy a Prius to make a statement** ..* to set an example*** .. to promote a cause and there may be no better cause to be shure. People are paying a lot of money to be seen in a Prius and the reason is obvious. I absoloutely love my Suzuki 60 and my 19' boat carries the weight well but for a smaller engine, say w 2 cylinders or less, I'll go for the 2 stroke. 4 strokes vibrate too much and weigh way too much. Sadly Marin your'e right. The 2 stroke is on the way out. The green thing is not going away and unless they start making 2 strokes that are cleaner than 4 strokes we will soon see the last of the breed.Evinrude claims the've done it but I think they're only close. I think I can go 12 nm w my 40 E tech w a fuel burn of 1.5 gallons.If the E-techs were say 25% cheaper they could be very popular but only if the 4 stroke mainia stops. I wish they'd make engines 25hp and less exempt from the emission regs but I don't see it hapening. As far as jet transport aircraft go how much fuel do they burn to transport a passenger a certain distance, and how much do tubroprops burn to do the same thing and how much would a modern piston engine burn. In short I wonder if the jet engine could wind up on the same scrap heap as the 2 stroke OB.

Eric Henning
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:54 PM   #15
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
troy994719 wrote:

*
nomadwilly wrote:I run 50-1 on all my 2 strokes except the chain saw** .. that gets Bell
*
I also saw a few mechanics on the Yamaha forum suggesting using 50:1 not 100:1.
*

*
Baker I think the Merc and Yamaha 20s were tuned down 25hp models, all the ones I have seen look the same size as a 25.
*

*
*

*
*
*

*



Maybe....you can figure that out by weight. If they weight the same and are different horsepower, there's your answer. *I do know the 15 and 20hp 4 strokes are the same engines.

*

Marin, you are correct when you say they do have the technology to make 2 strokes as clean and as efficient as 4 strokes. *These engines have been on the market for quite some time. *The only difference is that it is not cost effective for them to make them in the small horsepower ranges so they don't make them. *Y'all also make it sound like I can just go get a 2 stroke anywhere. *Trust me, I have been shopping and they re NOT easy to find. *But I will likely go Yamaha since I have always believed them to be the best... *Like someone said, if you look at the commercial folks, that is what they are running ....ALWAYS.....same as Furuno.
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:34 AM   #16
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

"if you look at the commercial folks, that is what they are running ....ALWAYS"

So you will be changing over to a Detroit for your boat?

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Old 11-27-2009, 09:56 AM   #17
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New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Not on my boat Fred. I like 4 strokes with an 8 ton boat that only requires 35hp. But if my Mitsu suffered a catastrophic failure and GM started to make a 4-27*** I'd probably go for it. As it is my Mitsu is really perfect. I'd pay a little more fuel burn to get the smoothness and the sound of the DD. Now that I've pushed my stern bearing back up where it belongs my boat is basically totally smooth. I think Fred's post was meant for someone else**** .. seems I just feel chatty this am.
John, I'm guessing but I think about 75% of the Yamy 25s go out the door at dealers as 2 strokes for about $2800 but the 15s are more like 50/50 and the 9.8s are all all 4 strokes (I think). Then the 8hp is a 2 stroke and quite popular. the 6hp (they sell very few of them - who would want a 6hp 4S single cyl when they can get a 8hp 2S twin. And then the tiny engines are all 4S... moan. I should but a hundred 25 2S Yamys and sell them after they quit making 2 strokes.
Fred, The biggest commercial OB thing around here is charter boats and they are all 4 stroke.

Eric Henning

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 27th of November 2009 11:14:09 AM

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 27th of November 2009 11:18:43 AM
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:17 PM   #18
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
What put 4 strokes on the map was emission regulation and the vogueness* of the green issue. ....As far as jet transport aircraft go how much fuel do they burn to transport a passenger a certain distance, and how much do tubroprops burn to do the same thing and how much would a modern piston engine burn.

Eric Henning
Four stroke outboards began appearing long before the environmental fad got going.* They simply made more sense, which is why Honda started making them.* I don't know if Honda was the first to market 4-stroke outboards but they were the first ones I saw back in the late 1970s or so.

As to jets vs. pistons, it's not even a contest.* And it's even less of a contest when you roll in the staggering maintenance costs of a big piston engine.* Today's high-bypass fanjets produce incredible amounts of power for the fuel they burn.* The GE engines on the 777 produce up to 115,000 pounds of thrust.* You couldn't even build a piston engine that could be put on an airplane that approached anywhere near that kind of power.

Fanjets are what allowed airplanes to be made large, which means more people can be carried, which means less fuel per passenger is burned.* When aircraft piston engines got to about 3,000 hp that was it.* They couldn't wring any more power out of them--- they were already too heavy, too complex, and too unreliable.

Piston engines in commercial transports truly are dinosaurs.* Dead ones.* Turboprops can be more efficient in smaller airplanes at lower altitudes which is why you still see them on short-range commuter-type planes.

*
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Old 11-27-2009, 06:02 PM   #19
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

No it was Homelite** ..* the 55hp one. Mr Honda had a vendetta against 2 strokes. I remember the first Honda motorcycles in the late 50s. They were amazing. Engines made almost no torque but reved to unheard of engine speeds. Most racing engines didn't even run at 10000rpm and these machines didn't even look sporty** .. more like sanitary. Honda never made a 2S street motorcycle and campained 4S machines on the GP racing circut for (I think) 20 yrs and never ever won a race. Must have spent 44 fourtunes trying. Even built one engine w oval shaped pistons. Just couldn't beat the 2 strokes. Thats how far Mr Honda had his head in the sand. How can you say 4 strokes make sense when they are way too heavy, too expensive, too complicated, too shakey (small only) and consume almost as much fuel as a modern 2 stroke? The only thing they do well is idle and make less emissions. And of course the latter is why we're stuck with them.
Airplanes: If one hung fanjets on a C130 would it have more range? I remember the Lockheed Electra had gearbox and/or propeller problems (vibration) but how would they stack up in fuel economy. The lighter than airships are the only real economical flying machines but ground logistics are terrible for them. Truthfully Marin I see a future without flying machines for public transportation. I see a future w only 4S OBs too.

Eric Henning
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Old 11-27-2009, 06:44 PM   #20
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RE: New Dinghy motor questions!!!!!

Quote:
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How can you say 4 strokes make sense...The only thing they do well is idle and make less emissions.
You are looking at technology advancements through the wrong end of the telescope.* Producing less emissions, smoke, and noise are advancements that are just as important as mechanical advancements.* Sure, 4-strokes weigh more, but they produce way less emissions and pollution.* You're saying that it's better to keep fouling the water and air in order to run an inefficient, noisy, smokey motor that weighs a few pounds less?

A 2-stroke does offer some advantages, no question. But in the overall scheme of things, 4-strokes are better.* If they weren't, they wouldn't be outselling 2-strokes by about a billion to one (at least in North America).* While there may be a few people who buy them only because it gives them environmental bragging rights--- I have yet to meet a 4-stroke owner who does this but given the huge number of 4-stroke buyers I'll acknowledge there are probably some out there who do--- all the ones I know say they bought them because they're quieter, more convenient to use, and they don't smoke and stink.

But the bottom line is that what you or I believe is irrelevant.* The outboard-motor-buying-public is voting with its wallet and the landslide winner is 4-stroke.* For a whole range of reasons, most of them practical, the clear preference is for 4-strokes.* You personally may believe that 2-stroke technology is better, but you are in a rapidly dwindling minority.* It's not all legislation and tree-huggers.* As I said, everyone I know who's purchased a 4-stroke outboard did so simply because they believe they are better engines all around.

Sloboat is correct--- aviation discussions belong somewhere else, so if you would like to discuss the piston-turboprop-turbofan subject in more detail feel free to e-mail or PM me.

*
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