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Old 09-19-2013, 09:30 PM   #1
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Two Nordhavns

I'm still looking for a boat. Been looking for awhile. Flip Flopped many times. I started looking at cheaper boats, but now I'm trying to look for my "second boat" first. More boat than I need currently, but like I said I'm looking for the second boat now.

I've found a couple of "older" Nordhavn 46s that I like, and I need some help comparing if anyone is interested:

Nordhavn 1:

1989 Hull #1

Lugger 143 hp with 5300 hours 8kw Northern Lightes genset with 2500 hrs
Amidships Master layout with guest cabin forward
Hydraulic bow and stern thrusters
Wing engine
Electronics mostly updated around 2007-2008
Sat phone
SSB radio
Helm Chair
Two new compressors 2008
watermaker

Electronics pkg:
SIMRAD AP2622 Auto Pilot with AC20, RPU160, RFC36 Rate Compass and RF300 Rudder ref. (NEW 2008 ) Interconnected to New C120 Chart Plotter.
Nobeltec AIS 100 Receiver with SeaCAS Antenna. Integrated with C 120 Radar and Chart Plotter.
Raytheon RG425 Chart plotter
Raytheon C120 Chart Plotter and RD424 4Kw Rdar 24” Radome, (NEW 2007). Navionics XL3 CF Gold East Coast USA, Bahamas, Caribbean, Bermuda, Spain and al Mediterranean countries.
Globalstar satellite telephone
Standard load hailer(2) GPS's - Garman and Raytheon w/ Interface cables for PC
ICOM SSB radio
ICOM VHF radio
Raytheon VHF Radio (MMSI) (NEW 2008 )
5 in. Ritchie compass
Weather fax
406 E.P.I.R.B. (2) (new 2007)
(2) Depth sounders - Datamarine and Raytheon ST60 speed and depth/sea temp. (NEW 2007)
Rudder angle indicator

about $100k less than the following boat:


1998 Nordhavn 46 Hull #59

Lugger 143 HP with 2600 hours 8kw Northern Lights with 1600 hours
Better engine rooom access and room due to no wing engine
Master forward with guest cabin amidships
Electric bow thruster
No wing engine
Original (1998 ) electronics
No helm chair
No sat phone
All new a/c systems installed 2008 (never had a/c-- was a west coast boat)

electronics pkg
Furuno SSB Transceiver Model 1502
Furuno GPS Plotter 1810
Furuno Front Radar GaAs Fet Front End 8-tone daylight display (64 mile)
Furuno Color Fish Finder/depth FCV-600L
Furuno GPS Navigator
Simrad Auto Pilot AP20 with hand held remote
Icon IC M504 VHF Radio
B&G Network Depth/ Speed/Wind
Seahail Loudspeaker with communications speaker in aft cockpit
Ritchie 6” Compass
EPIRD


Both boats are one owner boats in good condition. The older boat is not quite as nice as the newer one, but not too much difference cosmetically. Gel coat good on both, interior more worn on older boat.

I really can't compare the electronics packages very well due to not enough experience, but the older boat's electronics are newer. Any ideas here?

My main struggle/confusion is the wing engine. The cheaper boat has the wing engine, which I really like the idea of, except that it really, really clogs up the already kind of small engine room. Do I even need this wing engine? I see Dashew gave up on the wing engine to reduce complexity and instead went with a sail set up to get him home. Why couldn't a junk sail rig be rigged up for emergencies for downwind sailing, but maybe there is not enough way to rig enough sail area... Seems like the extra shaft and prop sticking out unprotected on the get home could be an issue. Steering issues? Pros and cons on the wing engine idea?



I like the older (cheaper) boat with the wing engine better, but I do worry about the age of the boat a little. Is a 100K savings over the 9 year age difference (assuming both equally well maintained) sound about right? I tend to be a cheap ass, and I don't want that trait to lead me to the wrong decision.

Was there anything "wrong" on the earlier boats that should make me lean towards the "newer" boat? The galley is arranged a little funky on the 1898, but it's not too terrible IMO.

I plan to own the boat at least 7-10 years and then may sell it. Will resale be wildly different from the 100k price difference now? In other words, will the more expensive boat depreciate quicker than the older, cheaper boat? Or vice versa?

Plan to cruise the Gulf of Mexico initially, then the Caribbean and hopefully through the canal eventually to the Pacific side of Costa Rica (have friends there). Is either boat more suitable for my planned cruising? If I want to go to the Mediterranean the older boat has 220v capability, but I don't actually think that will happen. ;-)

What else do I need to look at on my comparison?

Thanks for the help.......
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:45 PM   #2
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Bay Pelican (Marty) has a wing engine, separately propped, and makes sense when he posts. You could ask him.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:59 PM   #3
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Resale in 7 to 10 yrs is unpredictable. Today's used boat prices were unthinkable before 2008. I have a 1980 boat, which today, were I to try to sell, is a VERY OLD boat, so the price has collapsed, no matter how it is equipped.
Wing engine: depends on where you plan to go. If you are in the middle of an ocean and lose your main engine, are too far from help to have any other way to get home or off of the boat, you need a wing engine. If you cruise within radio or cell range of help, you don't.
Electronics: Anything more than 5 yrs old is obsolete. Some would say anything old enough to have been installed on your boat is already obsolete. You will be modernizing your electronics at least once in the 7 to 10 years yo plan on.
Worn interior: get an estimate of the cost to freshen it up, you will be surprised how little it takes.
Worn exterior: more $ than inside, by a lot.
just my $.02.
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardude01 View Post
I'm still looking for a boat. Been looking for awhile. Flip Flopped many times. I started looking at cheaper boats, but now I'm trying to look for my "second boat" first.

I've found a couple of "older" Nordhavn 46s, and I need some help comparing if anyone is interested:

Nordhavn 1:

1989 Hull #1

Lugger 143 hp with 5300 hours 8kw Northern Lightes genset with 2500 hrs
Amidships Master layout with guest cabin forward
Hydraulic bow and stern thrusters
Wing engine
Electronics mostly updated around 2007-2008
Sat phone
SSB radio
Helm Chair
Two new compressors 2008
watermaker

Electronics pkg:
SIMRAD AP2622 Auto Pilot with AC20, RPU160, RFC36 Rate Compass and RF300 Rudder ref. (NEW 2008) Interconnected to New C120 Chart Plotter.
Nobeltec AIS 100 Receiver with SeaCAS Antenna. Integrated with C 120 Radar and Chart Plotter.
Raytheon RG425 Chart plotter
Raytheon C120 Chart Plotter and RD424 4Kw Rdar 24 Radome, (NEW 2007). Navionics XL3 CF Gold East Coast USA, Bahamas, Caribbean, Bermuda, Spain and al Mediterranean countries.
Globalstar satellite telephone
Standard load hailer(2) GPS's - Garman and Raytheon w/ Interface cables for PC
ICOM SSB radio
ICOM VHF radio
Raytheon VHF Radio (MMSI) (NEW 2008)
5 in. Ritchie compass
Weather fax
406 E.P.I.R.B. (2) (new 2007)
(2) Depth sounders - Datamarine and Raytheon ST60 speed and depth/sea temp. (NEW 2007)
Rudder angle indicator

about $100k less than the following boat:


1998 Nordhavn 46 Hull #59

Lugger 143 HP with 2600 hours 8kw Northern Lights with 1600 hours
Better engine rooom access and room due to no wing engine
Master forward with guest cabin amidships
Electric bow thruster
No wing engine
Original (1998) electronics
No helm chair
No sat phone
All new a/c systems installed 2008 (never had a/c-- was a west coast boat)

electronics pkg
Furuno SSB Transceiver Model 1502
Furuno GPS Plotter 1810
Furuno Front Radar GaAs Fet Front End 8-tone daylight display (64 mile)
Furuno Color Fish Finder/depth FCV-600L
Furuno GPS Navigator
Simrad Auto Pilot AP20 with hand held remote
Icon IC M504 VHF Radio
B&G Network Depth/ Speed/Wind
Seahail Loudspeaker with communications speaker in aft cockpit
Ritchie 6 Compass
EPIRD


Both boats are one owner boats in good condition. The older boat is not quite as nice as the newer one, but not too much difference cosmetically. Gel coat good on both, interior more worn on older boat.

I really can't compare the electronics packages very well due to not enough experience, but the older boat's electronics are newer. Any ideas here?

My main struggle/confusion is the wing engine. The cheaper boat has the wing engine, which I really like the idea of, except that it really, really clogs up the already kind of small engine room. Do I even need this wing engine? I see Dashew gave up on the wing engine to reduce complexity and instead went with a sail set up to get him home. Why couldn't a junk sail rig be rigged up for emergencies for downwind sailing, but maybe there is not enough way to rig enough sail area... Seems like the extra shaft and prop sticking out unprotected on the get home could be an issue. Steering issues? Pros and cons on the wing engine idea?



I like the older (cheaper) boat with the wing engine better, but I do worry about the age of the boat a little. Is a 100K savings over the 9 year age difference (assuming both equally well maintained) sound about right? I tend to be a cheap ass, and I don't want that trait to lead me to the wrong decision.

Was there anything "wrong" on the earlier boats that should make me lean towards the "newer" boat? The galley is arranged a little funky on the 1898, but it's not too terrible IMO.

I plan to own the boat at least 7-10 years and then may sell it. Will resale be wildly different from the 100k price difference now? In other words, will the more expensive boat depreciate quicker than the older, cheaper boat? Or vice versa?

Plan to cruise the Gulf of Mexico initially, then the Caribbean and hopefully through the canal eventually to the Pacific side of Costa Rica (have friends there). Is either boat more suitable for my planned cruising? If I want to go to the Mediterranean the older boat has 220v capability, but I don't actually think that will happen. ;-)

What else do I need to look at on my comparison?

Thanks for the help.......
Think in percentages when dealing with price. $100k is a lot of difference on a $400k purchase (25%), but not so much on an $800k boat (12.5%). For 25% savings I would purchase the older vessel.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:21 AM   #5
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CarDude,
If you truly think you will go across the Carib. and thru the Canal the wing would be a nice insurance policy.. it can have other uses than just propulsion ( docking, power generation etc. ). The owner if the N57 that I cruise on had a 46, he had to replace the wing at 176hrs as it was toast from non use.. so make sure the current owners have used it or it could be a big liability.

Also the spare $100k can make a big dent in the upgrades you will do to either boat. I always look at boats on what they can do per dollar ... many feel the need to have a newer boat .. I look at them as to what I can do with them in a cost vs. use view.

If you are going to blue water cruise you cannot beat a Nordhavn.. In a few years I plan to join that club.

Happy boat hunting!
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Old 09-20-2013, 05:15 AM   #6
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I am ignoring the electronics, and especially the Globalstar sat phone. These will be replaced sooner or later regardless of which boat you choose.

You fail to mention stabilizers on either boat. That is a $30,000 to $40,000 item.

Two items stand out. The older boat has both a wing engine and hydraulic bow and stern thrusters. Both of these are desirable items on a Nordhavn. I can't tell whether you are an East Coast or West Coast boater. A 46 ft Nordhavn would not be the optimal choice for using as a coastal cruiser. Nordhavns are built for open water not marina hopping on the Atlantic ICW. If you are planning to frequent the Bahamas, Caribbean or cross the Atlantic the wing engine moves up to the realm of near necessity, or at least peace of mine. If you are planning on going into marinas the hydraulic bow and stern thrusters (versus and electric bow thruster) will be the joy of your life.

Can't tell which would be a better investment (a boat as an investment?).

Already mentioned is the necessity on checking the wing engine for use. If it hasn't been used it might be useless. I, like others with wing engines, regularly use mine even if only to charge the batteries.

The older boat you are looking at appears to be at the bottom of the price range for the Nordhavn 46s, and is 25% less than the others on Yachtworld. It will always sell for less. However in ten years it will be a 34 year old boat versus the newer one which will then be a 25 year old boat. Will buyers consider that a difference at that time?

Good luck, I doubt if you can go wrong on this choice.

Marty
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Old 09-20-2013, 05:46 AM   #7
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I hope you have toured both vessels , and are not doing a paper comp.

The Nordys are built for offshore so are tight inside , big tanks ,take away volume.

The chopped up interior is great as you can not be tossed too far underway ,
but the dance to go from area to area is different from a more wide open inshore boat.

The hull 25 or 40 years old would not be a problem , but there will be more efficient engines to replace the std engine.

Now that even the UN has given up on the ,global warming, HOAX we can expect 10-20% more efficient engines.

Inshore at 3GPH, 20% doesnt mean much , but the distance to dry tanks getting 20% better on a cruiser is of interest.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:15 AM   #8
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I am ignoring the electronics, and especially the Globalstar sat phone. These will be replaced sooner or later regardless of which boat you choose.

You fail to mention stabilizers on either boat. That is a $30,000 to $40,000 item.

Two items stand out. The older boat has both a wing engine and hydraulic bow and stern thrusters. Both of these are desirable items on a Nordhavn. I can't tell whether you are an East Coast or West Coast boater. A 46 ft Nordhavn would not be the optimal choice for using as a coastal cruiser. Nordhavns are built for open water not marina hopping on the Atlantic ICW. If you are planning to frequent the Bahamas, Caribbean or cross the Atlantic the wing engine moves up to the realm of near necessity, or at least peace of mine. If you are planning on going into marinas the hydraulic bow and stern thrusters (versus and electric bow thruster) will be the joy of your life.

Can't tell which would be a better investment (a boat as an investment?).

Already mentioned is the necessity on checking the wing engine for use. If it hasn't been used it might be useless. I, like others with wing engines, regularly use mine even if only to charge the batteries.

The older boat you are looking at appears to be at the bottom of the price range for the Nordhavn 46s, and is 25% less than the others on Yachtworld. It will always sell for less. However in ten years it will be a 34 year old boat versus the newer one which will then be a 25 year old boat. Will buyers consider that a difference at that time?

Good luck, I doubt if you can go wrong on this choice.

Marty
Marty

I am an East Coast boater-- Gulf Coast specifically. We will be coastal cruising the first few years and then more blue water cruising after that due to other commitments ending in 4 years. We are planning on some Bahamas trips during those 4 years however, and plan on Gulf crossings from Texas to the Bahamas.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that both boats have paravane type stabilizers, and the older boat also has flopper stoppers for while at anchor.

Thanks for this info on the wing engine. The wing engine only has 140 hours on it and the main has 5300, so I wonder if it has been "exercised" enough. Opinion?

Gotcha on the electronics. This is another reason I'm leaning toward the cheaper boat, to leave more room in the budget for upgrades.

My thoughts are like yours that in 10 years the boats may be valued more similarly since they are now both pretty old boats.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:21 AM   #9
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I hope you have toured both vessels , and are not doing a paper comp.

The Nordys are built for offshore so are tight inside , big tanks ,take away volume.

The chopped up interior is great as you can not be tossed too far underway ,
but the dance to go from area to area is different from a more wide open inshore boat.

The hull 25 or 40 years old would not be a problem , but there will be more efficient engines to replace the std engine.

Now that even the UN has given up on the ,global warming, HOAX we can expect 10-20% more efficient engines.

Inshore at 3GPH, 20% doesnt mean much , but the distance to dry tanks getting 20% better on a cruiser is of interest.
We have toured a local boat and plan on looking at the non local boat soon. The wife liked the interior setup and exterior room, but sad it did not have a flybridge. The engine room was really not as constricted as I had worried it would be with all the tanks, but I do worry about the engine room on the non local boat (with the wing engine) being very cramped.
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:36 AM   #10
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140 hours in 24 years (wonder when installed) is on the light end but certainly not fatal. What you would be looking for is 30 minutes once a month just to keep it lubricated and broken in. Find out if there is a record of oil samples, maintenance etc.

If I were buying the boat I would probably go with the 1989. But then I have a 1985 Krogen which I have had for 15 years.

Marty
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:15 AM   #11
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I have to agree with Marty's post way above. I'd go with the older boat as well. The Hydraulic Bow and Stern Thrusters and wing engine are very desirable features and the Mid-Master layout is also much more comfortable (and quiet) than the newer boat's Fwd Master layout.

Wing engines are very nice to have when you are making long trips. If the main stops for any reason (clogged fuel filters, stoopid owner tricks, etc.), you just fire up the wing and it will keep you off the rocks and pointed into the weather.

The $100,000 price difference would buy a LOT of electronics if you're really concerned about them. Furuno is generally considered to be better gear than Raymarine, but if it is really old, it will need to be replaced at some point anyway.

Good Luck with your new Nordhavn!
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:40 AM   #12
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I have to agree with Marty's post way above. I'd go with the older boat as well.
While cruising the Sea of Cortez quite a few years ago, I made friends with a gentleman and his wife that had a Nordy 46. It had the wing engine, stabilizer fish, great electronics, etc. and was a most impressive & salty looking boat. Were I a long distance cruiser at that time I would have had one. The reality, though, was that I commuted to San Carlos, Mexico by air and was not a long distance cruiser but rather I was a died in the wool "gunkholer." As such, I found the interior of the N46 to be quite small, chopped up and not conducive to the full enjoyment I sought when cruising in warm water areas. (swimming, diving, fishing, etc.) The cockpit was too small, on deck space was limited by all the rigging the boat has, etc.

The N46 is probably the first truly recreational blue water trawler that was marketed as such and is a very strong & capable boat. It's not for everyone, however, and it would be very wise to separate your dreams from reality when buying a boat. In other words, what do you really (honestly) expect to do with the boat?
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:43 AM   #13
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No dog in the fight (yet) as a Nordhavn is a dream yet realized for us. My take: the age of the boats are really moot, considering the intended usage. Equipment takes precedence- engines, thrusters, etc. My vote is for the older vessel with the wing engine.

The electronics will probably be the first gear replaced- the latest generation of Raymarine MFDs and glass bridges (post-FLIR acquisition) are truly state of the art, and are worth a serious look. They are easy to use, offer excellent networkability, and are a true integrated package.
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:47 PM   #14
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While cruising the Sea of Cortez quite a few years ago, I made friends with a gentleman and his wife that had a Nordy 46. It had the wing engine, stabilizer fish, great electronics, etc. and was a most impressive & salty looking boat. Were I a long distance cruiser at that time I would have had one. The reality, though, was that I commuted to San Carlos, Mexico by air and was not a long distance cruiser but rather I was a died in the wool "gunkholer." As such, I found the interior of the N46 to be quite small, chopped up and not conducive to the full enjoyment I sought when cruising in warm water areas. (swimming, diving, fishing, etc.) The cockpit was too small, on deck space was limited by all the rigging the boat has, etc.

The N46 is probably the first truly recreational blue water trawler that was marketed as such and is a very strong & capable boat. It's not for everyone, however, and it would be very wise to separate your dreams from reality when buying a boat. In other words, what do you really (honestly) expect to do with the boat?
Good points. I will be the fist to admit I am looking at too much of a blue water boat for our initial cruising plans. I can honestly see us going to the Bahamas for a few weeks in June. We have chartered there and really liked it. I can also see me and a buddy crossing the Gulf from Texas to Florida weather permitting to get to the Bahamas. The Caribbean may be pie in the sky dreaming, but I hope not. Same with the Panama Canal trip to the west coast. I doubt I will ever cross the Atlantic.

So I would call it semi realistic dreaming...

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Old 09-20-2013, 02:57 PM   #15
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A 46 Nordhavn with stabilizers makes the Caribbean not pie in the sky, but a why not destination. The boat anchored next to me at least one month every year in St. Lucia is a Nordhavn 46. (She is also stored for the summer right next to Bay Pelican.) Another Nordhavn 46 was our buddy boat from the Bahamas to Trinidad.

Best of luck


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Old 09-20-2013, 08:28 PM   #16
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I seriously looked at several Nordhavn 46's on both coasts and have always been impressed by their design, quality, build and proven capabiity.

We finally decided on my Defever 49 RPH for a significant amount less than the Nordhavn cost which has proven good for us.

However make sure you check out the different model 46's as there are true pros and cons between them especially with access to master etc. Also the newer ones have the fiberglass fuel tanks which can be advantageous.

If you are familiar with N46 Egret you may or may not know that she has just come on the market this week under private sale - go to the Nordhavn site look for Egrets blog and contact Scott directly.

Good luck.
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Old 09-21-2013, 06:34 PM   #17
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What about, instead of a wing engine, one just loaded up on spare parts for the main that would disable the engine. Fuel lines, injector pump, injectors, lift pump, alternator, water pump, what else?

Wouldn't that be cheaper than a wing setup?

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Old 09-21-2013, 08:09 PM   #18
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That would be my take. I've read the arguments pro and con regarding wing engines. My take is if reliability of a single concerns you that much buy a twin and get it over with. I'm a single engine fan but would prefer a twin over a seldom used wing engine arrangement.

Sounds as though you're leaning toward the newer boat to me.
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:44 PM   #19
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I would strongly suggest touching base with the Nordhavn Office in Dana Point California and request a list of factory changes between both boats. There were a number of improvements made during the production run including the type of materials used on the fuel and water tanks. Some of these changes alone are worth searching for a newer boats. Regarding Paravans versus Active Fins Stabilizers, I strongly suggest you take your time and investigate the pros and cons of both. Finally I would suggest you dig deep and really understand how you plan to use the boat and if the N46 is the right boat for you. Best of luck

John T. (N4050 & N4061 - former owner looking for N3)
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:30 AM   #20
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I would strongly suggest touching base with the Nordhavn Office in Dana Point California and request a list of factory changes between both boats. There were a number of improvements made during the production run including the type of materials used on the fuel and water tanks. Some of these changes alone are worth searching for a newer boats. Regarding Paravans versus Active Fins Stabilizers, I strongly suggest you take your time and investigate the pros and cons of both. Finally I would suggest you dig deep and really understand how you plan to use the boat and if the N46 is the right boat for you. Best of luck

John T. (N4050 & N4061 - former owner looking for N3)
Thanks for the info. I will contact the Dana Point office and find out the differences.

Are you suggesting the N46 is not the right boat for what we want to do? I see you lived on N40s for some time so I value your input.
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