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Old 09-03-2014, 09:42 AM   #41
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From the Coastal Pilot specs;
"Propellers: Hungshen 4-bladed bronze, 32" diameter x 38" pitch (81.28 cm d x 96.52 cm p) counter rotating.

Insequent wrote;
"I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that."

Is a 38" dia sound about right? I thought it must be a misprint but a 38" dia prop seems very large but I'm not very familiar w large boats. Must be a misprint. 32 X 28 ?
It's 32" diameter. 38" Pitch
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #42
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Yes. Nice layout, I also like the twin helm seats. Interesting that it was designed just downriver from me. Norman Wright is a great yard, they did a fabulous job of repairing the shipping damage I incurred at the hands of the Vancouver stevedores a year ago. About $10,000 worth.

But I think its an apples & oranges comparison to the Nordhavn Coastal Pilot. The Fleming is called a 58, but LOA measures 59' (for documentation?) and then 65'5" for a marina. The CP is 59', and given it has 5'10" less waterline length than the Fleming may well be a 59' LOA for a marina. Fleming is 88,000 lb lightship, once again indicating it is a significantly bigger boat. Its standard engines at 500HP seem a bit undersized - could it get above displacement speeds with those? Even with the optional 800HP MAN's would it be able to match the lighter CP with 715HP Cummins? And some are suggesting the CP's 18-20kn capability is barely enough. Was there ever a Fleming 65 (only 2'4" more LWL than the F59) ever delivered with the standard 800HP MAN's? If so, any performance reviews anywhere? I like both the CP59 and the F58, but I'm from Missouri as well until I see some on-water testing.

My slip is 59', so if the time comes when that is rigorously enforced I'd rather stick to 59' LOA (marina LOA). An extension of my Mk1 is looking to be pretty attractive. Although I would love to have the option of 18kn as well, and that ain't happening due to engine choice when I repowered her.
With your 59' limit, you do have some limitations. A 59' Grand Banks is 62'7" including pulpit and platform. Most "Euro style" boats will be over 60' if quoted 59'. The Fleming 58 is a lot more boat than the 55 and accomplishes much of what the 65 offers. As to speed, I can't find the numbers I had at the moment, but I believe it will top 20 knots and could fast cruise around 17-18 with the MAN's. Looking at similar size boats and configurations, the Grand Banks hits 25 and cruises at 19 with 813 hp CAT's.

We started off trying to find a 60' or less boat some time back. We finally found to get what we wanted in a 60' it was going to be over 60' including bow pulpit and platform. Now on the Nordhavn I'm thinking their 58'10" doesn't include what looks like a minimal platform extension off the stern. You'd need to double check. If it doesn't then that would push it to more than your 59', although not much more.

It's difficult when you're targeting a certain limit and the boats you like fall slightly higher. Now, it might be possible to take the Fleming 55 and rearrange the cabins.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:26 AM   #43
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Here is my take - the Nordhavn just needs that first buyer and the sales will take off. Having worked a bit with Nordhavn on a new build I can attest to their current customer input, care, schedule and budget process. Only one other builder today can match their aftermarket support - Dashew or so I've heard from the builder and their satisfied customers.

For those in the market to afford a $2M +/- new build the task is daunting as most of these buyers are doing the detail work with the builder rather than farming it out such as may happen with a larger new build. Nordhavn has this down pat. They have rebounded from the financial downturn and are smarter for it knowing that their supportive customer base is their best sales brochure.

Hull number one from Nordhavn is not a concern to me. They have wet exhaust build experience, their systems layouts for servicing are established, FRP layup is well in hand and noise abatement techniques a known.

OA and Sonship have given up on this size market which leaves GB, Carver, Princess, Bayliner (oops Meridian) and ?? as the playing field. Fleming you say - the Fleming 55 seriously lacks ER space and is a terribly dated design going back to over 20 years ago with minor tweaks in between.

Get one to the boat shows though and we'll see what happens.

While you're at it look at Nordhavn's 52 aft cabin design which is another niche market most have dropped out of. Pretty impressive and with the well tested 52 hull, voluminous ER and twin JD 4045s. Hummm, a sleeper maybe.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:13 AM   #44
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Here is my take - the Nordhavn just needs that first buyer and the sales will take off. Having worked a bit with Nordhavn on a new build I can attest to their current customer input, care, schedule and budget process. Only one other builder today can match their aftermarket support - Dashew or so I've heard from the builder and their satisfied customers.

For those in the market to afford a $2M +/- new build the task is daunting as most of these buyers are doing the detail work with the builder rather than farming it out such as may happen with a larger new build. Nordhavn has this down pat. They have rebounded from the financial downturn and are smarter for it knowing that their supportive customer base is their best sales brochure.

Hull number one from Nordhavn is not a concern to me. They have wet exhaust build experience, their systems layouts for servicing are established, FRP layup is well in hand and noise abatement techniques a known.

OA and Sonship have given up on this size market which leaves GB, Carver, Princess, Bayliner (oops Meridian) and ?? as the playing field. Fleming you say - the Fleming 55 seriously lacks ER space and is a terribly dated design going back to over 20 years ago with minor tweaks in between.

Get one to the boat shows though and we'll see what happens.

While you're at it look at Nordhavn's 52 aft cabin design which is another niche market most have dropped out of. Pretty impressive and with the well tested 52 hull, voluminous ER and twin JD 4045s. Hummm, a sleeper maybe.
You may be right about sales as Nordhavn has a great PR department. But I'm not convinced yet that their CP is a world beater or changer. They don't own that market, they're new to it. It's also a struggling market segment still. But SD coastal cruisers are very different than FD long range cruisers. And they look at price, delivery, styling and other factors. And in this size range you did leave out the largest seller in the US and that's Sea Ray. Then there are people like Hatteras and that then brings in all the SF too. Also although I would overlook them intentionally but Marlow is in this market. And then even people like Princess and Sunseeker and Beneteau and Marquis and soon, Jeanneau. Oh and Azimut. This is a market with a lot of offerings. Can Nordhavn be competitive in it? I don't know. I do know that so far they have zero sales in it. They've only done 25% of the tooling of the boat. Plugs after the start of next year, then layup will start. I would think none will leave the factory until 2016 and then you have their long commissioning process. You're talking mid to late 2016 to see and test a boat. Could be sooner but so far isn't looking like it. Let's assume someone fell in love with it and grabbed it at that point. When is Hull #2? 2018?

Or will people get wind of this and line up placing orders even before the first is built?

I see a long slow entry. Not saying they won't be successful in this market at some stage. Might even have a full SD line of three or four boats. But it's going to take time to be the new player in an already established market.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:29 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
From the Coastal Pilot specs;
"Propellers: Hungshen 4-bladed bronze, 32" diameter x 38" pitch (81.28 cm d x 96.52 cm p) counter rotating.

Insequent wrote;
"I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that."

Is a 38" dia sound about right? I thought it must be a misprint but a 38" dia prop seems very large but I'm not very familiar w large boats. Must be a misprint. 32 X 28 ?
Eric
My 200 HP JD's spin 30x26 props, 3 blade. The Nordy spec is for 715HP HP Cummins at about the same rpm. So it cant be a missprint ie not 32x28, 4 blade. They just could not load up the Cummins enough. I'll have to get down to the boat and peruse Gerr's Propeller Handbook for some more clues on the oversquare issue.
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Old 09-03-2014, 07:20 PM   #46
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Nothing special about "oversquare" P/D ratio. Pitch ratios range from .5 to 2.5 or more. Lower P/D is more efficient in slower boats, higher P/D is more efficient in faster boats. A boat that runs at 100 knots will have a P/D ratio of 2 or so. If you want to see strange looking props find a race boat(power), tiny diameter with huge pitch......
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:12 PM   #47
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Nothing special about "oversquare" P/D ratio. Pitch ratios range from .5 to 2.5 or more. Lower P/D is more efficient in slower boats, higher P/D is more efficient in faster boats. A boat that runs at 100 knots will have a P/D ratio of 2 or so. If you want to see strange looking props find a race boat(power), tiny diameter with huge pitch......
Thanks Tad, that makes a lot of sense.

For the CP59 the 32" diam was no doubt about as large as they could fit given their 4'2" draft
For the new Fleming 58 they just state 4 blade, but with 5' draft they will have more options. My guess is they will divulge the prop size after sea trials are completed....
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:10 PM   #48
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Holy Passagemaker! Nordy goes to an SD hull. What's next, a planing hull? A sportsfisher?
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:14 PM   #49
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Holy Passagemaker! Nordy goes to an SD hull. What's next, a planing hull? A sportsfisher?
Nordhavn has already done a sportsfisherman.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:15 PM   #50
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Nordhavn has already done a sportsfisherman.

And a semi displacement hull
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