Nordhavn adopts semi-displacement design

[Moonstruck]

Marty, seeing it from both perspectives, there are close parallels to the housing market. During the 70s and 80s (last century) there was a plethora of affordable 44' and under boats to choose from. Not only did the profit go out of that market, but many builders went out of business---witness Mainship.

After WWII there were a plethora of inexpensive homes built to house the returning veterans and their new families. Bill Levitt lead the way with his Levitt Town and the small homes with unfinished attics for an easy expansion. His model was copied all over the country. Now many of those homes are our affordable housing stock. The profit went out of the business, and savvy builders started building for the move up and luxury buyers where there was a profit to be made. Many things have conspired to push the prices up on homes and boats not the least of which was government regulations.

Today, like the affordable homes, the affordable boats are the venerable 70s and 80s boats. The fact they are still around and represent good value is a testament to their reasonably good construction.

I think many here could come up with some good design features of a smaller trawler, but producing it at a profit would be the trick. As I tell new builders, most anyone can learn to build a house. The trick is building a lot of them over and over at a profit. Few learn to do that.

 

[CPseudonym]

For the record semi displacement is "back to the future" for Nordhavn and the 59 will not be their "first SD hull". They started out making semi displacement 35' powerboats when transitioning from sail.

 

[Insequent]

Well I think it looks pretty darn good. Goldilocks sized. Midship master cabin and two nice gust cabins. Good outside space. Displacement very good for its length.

I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that. Personally I'd want a pair of pod drives anyway, and ditch the rudders.

 

[Marin]

I don't think this is anything new for Nordhavn other than the scale. I've seen a few N35s in this area, and they have semi-planing hulls albeit with a pretty deep forefoot and keel. I'm not a Nordhavn fan, primarily for aesthetic reasons, but I liked what I saw of the N35.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Nordy competing w Fleming?

Not a chance as one is lusted over by almost all that see them and the other has styling coming from somewhere in the home appliance world.

Gotta rise above that to compete w the big boys in the mainstream market.

Out of mainstream Nordhavn we do have the good looking and somewhat desirable N35 plus the proper and very good looking N46. Pleasure boats are all about or at least much about styling and considering that Nordhavn has done very well w it's ho hum industrial look the question is probably what will win in the market place ... style or prestige. Only Nordhavn has the ability to offer style AND prestige. Don't think it will come to pass though.

Marin that's a great N35 picture.

 

[Marin]

Marin that's a great N35 picture.

I didn't take it, Eric. I lifted it off the web. The couple of N35s I've seen in person have been at the dock.

The only "big" Nordhavn design I've ever cared for is the older N50. But I don't think even it holds a candle aesthetically to the Fleming 55, deFever 46 and 50, or Krogen 42.

 

[Insequent]

No doubt the Fleming 55 looks nice, and the GA flows superbly - all the spaces connect well. But I've only ever been on them at the dock. The one thing I am not keen on is that the master stateroom is in the bow. Their dealers say its fine because there are no hard chines forward and therefore no wave slap. But before I'd hand over a check I would want to have spent a few nights at anchor in one.

The wave slap in my Mk 1 drives me nuts at times, even in my midship master. I might get used to it, but also may have to smooth over the hard chine until a bit below the waterline. At first with an easily removed fairing of some kind.

The Nordhavn Coastal Pilots have a couple of important features. Firstly they are not painfully slow. Second, the draft is in line with what you want for use in tropical waters around the world. And they look better too.

The typical Nordhavn's draft is just too deep, and too limiting for extended cruising in low latitudes. Of course, that draft is a plus in high latitudes. In those latitudes the high displacement is of benefit as well, but in conjunction with l/b ratio it helps kill any chance of reasonable speed. Then there is the windage. Standing at the helm of an N55 is like looking out the window of an office high rise building. Then you climb up to the flybridge. That must be the penthouse balcony. For all their praised passagemaking capability, I also wonder about the helm position being so close to the bow. The various editions of Beebe's book seem to trumpet the need for the helm to be around midships for comfortable ocean crossing.

 

[BandB]

No doubt the Fleming 55 looks nice, and the GA flows superbly - all the spaces connect well. But I've only ever been on them at the dock. The one thing I am not keen on is that the master stateroom is in the bow. Their dealers say its fine because there are no hard chines forward and therefore no wave slap. But before I'd hand over a check I would want to have spent a few nights at anchor in one.

The new Fleming 58 changes a lot of things. The location of the master is a key one. It's located mid ship and is full width.

 

[Insequent]

The new Fleming 58 changes a lot of things. The location of the master is a key one. It's located mid ship and is full width.

Yes. Nice layout, I also like the twin helm seats. Interesting that it was designed just downriver from me. Norman Wright is a great yard, they did a fabulous job of repairing the shipping damage I incurred at the hands of the Vancouver stevedores a year ago. About $10,000 worth.

But I think its an apples & oranges comparison to the Nordhavn Coastal Pilot. The Fleming is called a 58, but LOA measures 59' (for documentation?) and then 65'5" for a marina. The CP is 59', and given it has 5'10" less waterline length than the Fleming may well be a 59' LOA for a marina. Fleming is 88,000 lb lightship, once again indicating it is a significantly bigger boat. Its standard engines at 500HP seem a bit undersized - could it get above displacement speeds with those? Even with the optional 800HP MAN's would it be able to match the lighter CP with 715HP Cummins? And some are suggesting the CP's 18-20kn capability is barely enough. Was there ever a Fleming 65 (only 2'4" more LWL than the F59) ever delivered with the standard 800HP MAN's? If so, any performance reviews anywhere? I like both the CP59 and the F58, but I'm from Missouri as well until I see some on-water testing.

My slip is 59', so if the time comes when that is rigorously enforced I'd rather stick to 59' LOA (marina LOA). An extension of my Mk1 is looking to be pretty attractive. Although I would love to have the option of 18kn as well, and that ain't happening due to engine choice when I repowered her.

 

[Nomad Willy]

From the Coastal Pilot specs;
"Propellers: Hungshen 4-bladed bronze, 32" diameter x 38" pitch (81.28 cm d x 96.52 cm p) counter rotating.

Insequent wrote;
"I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that."

Is a 38" dia sound about right? I thought it must be a misprint but a 38" dia prop seems very large but I'm not very familiar w large boats. Must be a misprint. 32 X 28 ?

 

[BandB]

From the Coastal Pilot specs;
"Propellers: Hungshen 4-bladed bronze, 32" diameter x 38" pitch (81.28 cm d x 96.52 cm p) counter rotating.

Insequent wrote;
"I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that."

Is a 38" dia sound about right? I thought it must be a misprint but a 38" dia prop seems very large but I'm not very familiar w large boats. Must be a misprint. 32 X 28 ?

It's 32" diameter. 38" Pitch

 

[BandB]

Yes. Nice layout, I also like the twin helm seats. Interesting that it was designed just downriver from me. Norman Wright is a great yard, they did a fabulous job of repairing the shipping damage I incurred at the hands of the Vancouver stevedores a year ago. About $10,000 worth.

But I think its an apples & oranges comparison to the Nordhavn Coastal Pilot. The Fleming is called a 58, but LOA measures 59' (for documentation?) and then 65'5" for a marina. The CP is 59', and given it has 5'10" less waterline length than the Fleming may well be a 59' LOA for a marina. Fleming is 88,000 lb lightship, once again indicating it is a significantly bigger boat. Its standard engines at 500HP seem a bit undersized - could it get above displacement speeds with those? Even with the optional 800HP MAN's would it be able to match the lighter CP with 715HP Cummins? And some are suggesting the CP's 18-20kn capability is barely enough. Was there ever a Fleming 65 (only 2'4" more LWL than the F59) ever delivered with the standard 800HP MAN's? If so, any performance reviews anywhere? I like both the CP59 and the F58, but I'm from Missouri as well until I see some on-water testing.

My slip is 59', so if the time comes when that is rigorously enforced I'd rather stick to 59' LOA (marina LOA). An extension of my Mk1 is looking to be pretty attractive. Although I would love to have the option of 18kn as well, and that ain't happening due to engine choice when I repowered her.

With your 59' limit, you do have some limitations. A 59' Grand Banks is 62'7" including pulpit and platform. Most "Euro style" boats will be over 60' if quoted 59'. The Fleming 58 is a lot more boat than the 55 and accomplishes much of what the 65 offers. As to speed, I can't find the numbers I had at the moment, but I believe it will top 20 knots and could fast cruise around 17-18 with the MAN's. Looking at similar size boats and configurations, the Grand Banks hits 25 and cruises at 19 with 813 hp CAT's.

We started off trying to find a 60' or less boat some time back. We finally found to get what we wanted in a 60' it was going to be over 60' including bow pulpit and platform. Now on the Nordhavn I'm thinking their 58'10" doesn't include what looks like a minimal platform extension off the stern. You'd need to double check. If it doesn't then that would push it to more than your 59', although not much more.

It's difficult when you're targeting a certain limit and the boats you like fall slightly higher. Now, it might be possible to take the Fleming 55 and rearrange the cabins.

 

[sunchaser]

Here is my take - the Nordhavn just needs that first buyer and the sales will take off. Having worked a bit with Nordhavn on a new build I can attest to their current customer input, care, schedule and budget process. Only one other builder today can match their aftermarket support - Dashew or so I've heard from the builder and their satisfied customers.

For those in the market to afford a $2M +/- new build the task is daunting as most of these buyers are doing the detail work with the builder rather than farming it out such as may happen with a larger new build. Nordhavn has this down pat. They have rebounded from the financial downturn and are smarter for it knowing that their supportive customer base is their best sales brochure.

Hull number one from Nordhavn is not a concern to me. They have wet exhaust build experience, their systems layouts for servicing are established, FRP layup is well in hand and noise abatement techniques a known.

OA and Sonship have given up on this size market which leaves GB, Carver, Princess, Bayliner (oops Meridian) and ?? as the playing field. Fleming you say - the Fleming 55 seriously lacks ER space and is a terribly dated design going back to over 20 years ago with minor tweaks in between.

Get one to the boat shows though and we'll see what happens.

While you're at it look at Nordhavn's 52 aft cabin design which is another niche market most have dropped out of. Pretty impressive and with the well tested 52 hull, voluminous ER and twin JD 4045s. Hummm, a sleeper maybe.

 

[BandB]

Here is my take - the Nordhavn just needs that first buyer and the sales will take off. Having worked a bit with Nordhavn on a new build I can attest to their current customer input, care, schedule and budget process. Only one other builder today can match their aftermarket support - Dashew or so I've heard from the builder and their satisfied customers.

For those in the market to afford a $2M +/- new build the task is daunting as most of these buyers are doing the detail work with the builder rather than farming it out such as may happen with a larger new build. Nordhavn has this down pat. They have rebounded from the financial downturn and are smarter for it knowing that their supportive customer base is their best sales brochure.

Hull number one from Nordhavn is not a concern to me. They have wet exhaust build experience, their systems layouts for servicing are established, FRP layup is well in hand and noise abatement techniques a known.

OA and Sonship have given up on this size market which leaves GB, Carver, Princess, Bayliner (oops Meridian) and ?? as the playing field. Fleming you say - the Fleming 55 seriously lacks ER space and is a terribly dated design going back to over 20 years ago with minor tweaks in between.

Get one to the boat shows though and we'll see what happens.

While you're at it look at Nordhavn's 52 aft cabin design which is another niche market most have dropped out of. Pretty impressive and with the well tested 52 hull, voluminous ER and twin JD 4045s. Hummm, a sleeper maybe.

You may be right about sales as Nordhavn has a great PR department. But I'm not convinced yet that their CP is a world beater or changer. They don't own that market, they're new to it. It's also a struggling market segment still. But SD coastal cruisers are very different than FD long range cruisers. And they look at price, delivery, styling and other factors. And in this size range you did leave out the largest seller in the US and that's Sea Ray. Then there are people like Hatteras and that then brings in all the SF too. Also although I would overlook them intentionally but Marlow is in this market. And then even people like Princess and Sunseeker and Beneteau and Marquis and soon, Jeanneau. Oh and Azimut. This is a market with a lot of offerings. Can Nordhavn be competitive in it? I don't know. I do know that so far they have zero sales in it. They've only done 25% of the tooling of the boat. Plugs after the start of next year, then layup will start. I would think none will leave the factory until 2016 and then you have their long commissioning process. You're talking mid to late 2016 to see and test a boat. Could be sooner but so far isn't looking like it. Let's assume someone fell in love with it and grabbed it at that point. When is Hull #2? 2018?

Or will people get wind of this and line up placing orders even before the first is built?

I see a long slow entry. Not saying they won't be successful in this market at some stage. Might even have a full SD line of three or four boats. But it's going to take time to be the new player in an already established market.

 

[Insequent]

From the Coastal Pilot specs;
"Propellers: Hungshen 4-bladed bronze, 32" diameter x 38" pitch (81.28 cm d x 96.52 cm p) counter rotating.

Insequent wrote;
"I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that."

Is a 38" dia sound about right? I thought it must be a misprint but a 38" dia prop seems very large but I'm not very familiar w large boats. Must be a misprint. 32 X 28 ?

Eric
My 200 HP JD's spin 30x26 props, 3 blade. The Nordy spec is for 715HP HP Cummins at about the same rpm. So it cant be a missprint ie not 32x28, 4 blade. They just could not load up the Cummins enough. I'll have to get down to the boat and peruse Gerr's Propeller Handbook for some more clues on the oversquare issue.

 

[Tad Roberts]

Nothing special about "oversquare" P/D ratio. Pitch ratios range from .5 to 2.5 or more. Lower P/D is more efficient in slower boats, higher P/D is more efficient in faster boats. A boat that runs at 100 knots will have a P/D ratio of 2 or so. If you want to see strange looking props find a race boat(power), tiny diameter with huge pitch......

 

[Insequent]

Nothing special about "oversquare" P/D ratio. Pitch ratios range from .5 to 2.5 or more. Lower P/D is more efficient in slower boats, higher P/D is more efficient in faster boats. A boat that runs at 100 knots will have a P/D ratio of 2 or so. If you want to see strange looking props find a race boat(power), tiny diameter with huge pitch......

Thanks Tad, that makes a lot of sense.

For the CP59 the 32" diam was no doubt about as large as they could fit given their 4'2" draft
For the new Fleming 58 they just state 4 blade, but with 5' draft they will have more options. My guess is they will divulge the prop size after sea trials are completed....

 

[ancora]

Holy Passagemaker! Nordy goes to an SD hull. What's next, a planing hull? A sportsfisher?

 

[Moonstruck]

Holy Passagemaker! Nordy goes to an SD hull. What's next, a planing hull? A sportsfisher?

Nordhavn has already done a sportsfisherman.

 

[CPseudonym]

Nordhavn has already done a sportsfisherman.

And a semi displacement hull

 

[KarmaII]

N5902 owner here. Getting a kick reading the comments and speculation from way back when. A little over 4500 nm on her from south Florida to the Chesapeake and now in the Bahamas. Will run forever at 8.5 kts or gobble diesel at 18 kts and does most everything we need for 10 months a year of constant cruising.

We’ve found 10 kts is the sweet spot not quite a 1:1 burn rate but we travel heavy.

We get a lot of “what is it” questions and surprised looks when they hear Nordhavn which is often funny. Is she the prettiest girl compared to Fleming or GB’s? Probably not but those owners sure spend a lot of time onboard liking the standing er, midship master and wide open plan.

Karma N5902 is just right for us. You can find us on Instagram karma.N5902