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Old 03-18-2014, 06:53 PM   #21
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Wifey B:

New failed ad campaign: "It's not your father's Nordhavn."

Oh wait, Oldsmobile tried that, didn't they.
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Old 08-31-2014, 05:08 AM   #22
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If you want a luxurious cruising boat that can go fast you get a Viking SF without the tower and outriggers.

That being said there's no reason Nordhavn can't produce an SD hull at the same fit and finish as their FD hulls, if that's what their costomers want. I'm sure it will be a great boat with the ability to get out of the hole for those times when you need the extra speed.

If they do it right it would be like their FD boats with that something extra. It would have to be a Nordy through and through, there's no way they build a Bayliner with Nordhavn badging.
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Old 08-31-2014, 08:25 AM   #23
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For those on the Forum who drive a BMW, Mercedes, Iinfiniti, Lexus etc Nordhavn's testing of the marketplace is understandable.

A few weeks ago I spent some time on a Pacific Mariner 65, the little Westport as some call them. It had great quality, ER space, sight lines and economy for its size. Alas, no buyers after the financial meltdown. And lots of competition from Outer Reef, Fleming, Marlow and GB. So yes it is a crowded marketplace but few match Nordhavn's after market support, a real consideration for those entering the new build high end market.

Nordhavn well recognizes that not all want to be ocean crossers and as evidenced by this thread is gauging the marketplace and hoping for an order. Once a new concept Nordhavn hits the boat shows it will generate great interest, now they are waiting for that moment. Remember, they came from building sailboats
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:09 AM   #24
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A few weeks ago I spent some time on a Pacific Mariner 65, the little Westport as some call them. It had great quality, ER space, sight lines and economy for its size. Alas, no buyers after the financial meltdown. And lots of competition from Outer Reef, Fleming, Marlow and GB. So yes it is a crowded marketplace but few match Nordhavn's after market support, a real consideration for those entering the new build high end market.
:
Actually the PM 65 wasn't moved aside over demand, but as with so many builders the larger boats took precedence. Of course the story starts long before with a few wooden boats sold in a Tar lot (yes, tar, not car), then founding Bayliner and ultimately selling it to Brunswick. When Orin Edson bought majority interest in Westport, he pulled Pacific Mariner in. PM had the 65 and 85 and WP had the 98, 112 and 130. Another facility was added for the 164 which we wanted, having had it's predecessor built by Admiral a few years earlier. The PM and WP already had a common heritage with Bill Garden designing the 65, 85, 130, and 164. Jack Sarin designed the 98 and 112. Greg Marshall was involved as a Garden protege on several and Donald Starkey on the 164. But there wasn't room for it all and the styling of the 65 and 85 was a bit old.

So the project to renew the 85 was started. But before completed the molds for the old 85 were in a fire, so that task was stepped up while the factory turned out many 65's while waiting. Then there was a pent up demand for the 85 and ultimately the larger boats won out as they have in so many builders. The 65 was never updated and was discontinued. The 65 was a great boat and sold in huge volume, just needed some restyling like the 85 got.

Through all this Westport continued to build 8 to 12 boats a year and recently was sold to the Chouest family as Edson is now in his 80's. He does still cruise on his 164, Evviva (Long Live). The next boat in the line is a couple of years away but will be the 120.

The 65 has a combination of space and performance I haven't seen in any other boat on the market today. But then look at how the old Bayliner cruisers have persevered in their size range as that range has lost builders over the years. Go from the Bayliner 4788, 5288, and 5788 to the PM 65, 85 to the WP 98, 112, 130, 164 and you have a complete picture, all built in Washington.

I mourn a bit the loss of the 65 as I do the Bayliners 4788-5788. Similarly the Hatteras below 60', the GB below 43'. There have been over 200 PM's built in the two models, 65 and 85. As to WP, there have been 11-164's, 1-143', 43-130's, 57-112's, 12-106 to 108, 4-98's, 10-86 to 92.

The PM 65 is to us, our perfect loop boat. Too bad it's no longer built. We've actually been on (not just walkiing on but ridden on and handled) 65, 85, 112, and 130 but not the 98 or 164.

As to Nordhavn's Coastal 59, it will be interesting because it will by it's very nature be very different from their other boats. Not just hull design, but weight will be a huge difference. It will weigh just over half what their 60 does. Half the fuel capacity, half the water capacity. Twin 715 Cummins vs. Single 325 John Deere. No ballast. Wet exhaust vs. dry.

This will either be a brilliant expansion of their brand or a strange and confusing compromise that appeals to neither their existing market or another market.

It's also an entry into a very crowded range that has been weak. Pretty easy to compare a traditional Nordhavn to a Northern for instance. One huge advantage is they float upright. Ok, couldn't resist. Northern did build some good boats along the way, but certainly not Nordhavn's. But now comparing to Fleming, Hatteras, Grand Banks, Sea Ray, Maritimo, Marlow, and others, we'll see.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:37 AM   #25
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Good summary BB. The PM 65s I've been on suffered an angled inward pilot house door, prone to difficult openings at times. No fun when trying to get to the foredeck in a hurry.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:43 AM   #26
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I personally like the design myself, and the idea of having Nordhavn build quality in a SD boat.
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:08 AM   #27
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I personally like the design myself, and the idea of having Nordhavn build quality in a SD boat.
I'm just not sure you can say that though. Nordhavn's strength is in the hull and structure and this won't be that. There is some carryover. And for all of Nordhavn's quality in construction they then take an exceptionally long time once shipped to the destination in completion and outfitting and also continue with adjustments and fine tuning of equipment for a good while after delivery. Their model is very different than the other SD's in that respect.

Most differences have good and bad. The plus will be more customization than other SD's. The negative is takes more time to get ready plus may have more post-delivery adjustments to be made.

Don't get me wrong. I think Nordhavn builds a fine boat. I think many others do too. But the true strength is the design, hull and the sea worthiness. And this boat will not be the same there. Right now if I was buying I'd go for a proven 58 or 65 from Fleming before Hull #1 from Nordhavn, simply because I'm conservative. Now, it may turn out to be the greatest SD there is.

Anyone know what kind of delivery time from order they're quoting? If it's like the rest of their line then it's much longer than any other SD.

I'm from Missouri (not really, just philosophically). I won't ordain it or condemn it at this time, just wait to see. I'm not going to automatically assume because it's their first SD it can't be great. But I'm also not going to assume because they build good FD boats, this will automatically be to that level. In fact, in some ways it can't be to that level by design.
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:19 AM   #28
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Nordhavn adopts semi-displacement design

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I'm just not sure you can say that though. Nordhavn's strength is in the hull and structure and this won't be that. There is some carryover. And for all of Nordhavn's quality in construction they then take an exceptionally long time once shipped to the destination in completion and outfitting and also continue with adjustments and fine tuning of equipment for a good while after delivery. Their model is very different than the other SD's in that respect.



Most differences have good and bad. The plus will be more customization than other SD's. The negative is takes more time to get ready plus may have more post-delivery adjustments to be made.



Don't get me wrong. I think Nordhavn builds a fine boat. I think many others do too. But the true strength is the design, hull and the sea worthiness. And this boat will not be the same there. Right now if I was buying I'd go for a proven 58 or 65 from Fleming before Hull #1 from Nordhavn, simply because I'm conservative. Now, it may turn out to be the greatest SD there is.



Anyone know what kind of delivery time from order they're quoting? If it's like the rest of their line then it's much longer than any other SD.



I'm from Missouri (not really, just philosophically). I won't ordain it or condemn it at this time, just wait to see. I'm not going to automatically assume because it's their first SD it can't be great. But I'm also not going to assume because they build good FD boats, this will automatically be to that level. In fact, in some ways it can't be to that level by design.

Very good point. I would definitely not want to receive hull one of any boat. You also raise a good point about delivery time too, that'll be interesting to watch pan out. Waiting a year then another 6 months for commissioning is a lot, but people seem to wait.
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Old 08-31-2014, 12:03 PM   #29
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Very good point. I would definitely not want to receive hull one of any boat. You also raise a good point about delivery time too, that'll be interesting to watch pan out. Waiting a year then another 6 months for commissioning is a lot, but people seem to wait.
Just on the regular Nordhavn line they have no choice but to wait. On SD, the production time isn't the problem, it's the six months commissioning that will be plus the first year after delivery often has a lot of adjustments being made. Semi custom takes a lot of definition. With Nordhavn the basic structure is standard but everything else changes boat to boat. With most SD builders in that range, it's not just the structure but the majority of the equipment that changes very little from boat to boat. Layout and furnishing of the decks is the real custom part.

As to hull one, this isn't just hull one of a model. It's hull one of that type of boat. It's like the first powerboat of a sailboat builder. Might be great but who knows. I'll assure you that Hull #3 is never the same as Hull #1. There are changes made. On some boats very minor. On others fairly major.

This has to feel odd to some within Nordhavn too. This is what they've been selling against, promoting their seaworthiness and economic use. Some probably feel like they've gone over to the dark side. Like I'm sure some did when power boats came along.
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Old 08-31-2014, 12:49 PM   #30
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In this century (how is that for an opener) I have watched as the new boats have gotten larger and larger. Seems that the cruising market for new boats is one in which economy is not the driving factor.

Combine this with the very small percentage of boaters who need a full displacement boat to cross an ocean. Also consider that a 59 foot semi-displacement boat can reasonably island hop to go from North America to the Eastern or Western Caribbean.

Thus a high end semi-displacement 59 footer serves a lot of the market for large expensive boats.

Can't predict how well it will do, but I can remember when the 42 footers where large, now I see many 48s being sold.
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Old 08-31-2014, 01:09 PM   #31
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Marty, seeing it from both perspectives, there are close parallels to the housing market. During the 70s and 80s (last century) there was a plethora of affordable 44' and under boats to choose from. Not only did the profit go out of that market, but many builders went out of business---witness Mainship.

After WWII there were a plethora of inexpensive homes built to house the returning veterans and their new families. Bill Levitt lead the way with his Levitt Town and the small homes with unfinished attics for an easy expansion. His model was copied all over the country. Now many of those homes are our affordable housing stock. The profit went out of the business, and savvy builders started building for the move up and luxury buyers where there was a profit to be made. Many things have conspired to push the prices up on homes and boats not the least of which was government regulations.

Today, like the affordable homes, the affordable boats are the venerable 70s and 80s boats. The fact they are still around and represent good value is a testament to their reasonably good construction.

I think many here could come up with some good design features of a smaller trawler, but producing it at a profit would be the trick. As I tell new builders, most anyone can learn to build a house. The trick is building a lot of them over and over at a profit. Few learn to do that.
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Old 08-31-2014, 01:27 PM   #32
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For the record semi displacement is "back to the future" for Nordhavn and the 59 will not be their "first SD hull". They started out making semi displacement 35' powerboats when transitioning from sail.
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:20 PM   #33
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Well I think it looks pretty darn good. Goldilocks sized. Midship master cabin and two nice gust cabins. Good outside space. Displacement very good for its length.

I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that. Personally I'd want a pair of pod drives anyway, and ditch the rudders.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:14 PM   #34
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I don't think this is anything new for Nordhavn other than the scale. I've seen a few N35s in this area, and they have semi-planing hulls albeit with a pretty deep forefoot and keel. I'm not a Nordhavn fan, primarily for aesthetic reasons, but I liked what I saw of the N35.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:10 PM   #35
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Nordy competing w Fleming?

Not a chance as one is lusted over by almost all that see them and the other has styling coming from somewhere in the home appliance world.

Gotta rise above that to compete w the big boys in the mainstream market.

Out of mainstream Nordhavn we do have the good looking and somewhat desirable N35 plus the proper and very good looking N46. Pleasure boats are all about or at least much about styling and considering that Nordhavn has done very well w it's ho hum industrial look the question is probably what will win in the market place ... style or prestige. Only Nordhavn has the ability to offer style AND prestige. Don't think it will come to pass though.

Marin that's a great N35 picture.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:30 PM   #36
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Marin that's a great N35 picture.
I didn't take it, Eric. I lifted it off the web. The couple of N35s I've seen in person have been at the dock.

The only "big" Nordhavn design I've ever cared for is the older N50. But I don't think even it holds a candle aesthetically to the Fleming 55, deFever 46 and 50, or Krogen 42.
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:35 AM   #37
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No doubt the Fleming 55 looks nice, and the GA flows superbly - all the spaces connect well. But I've only ever been on them at the dock. The one thing I am not keen on is that the master stateroom is in the bow. Their dealers say its fine because there are no hard chines forward and therefore no wave slap. But before I'd hand over a check I would want to have spent a few nights at anchor in one.

The wave slap in my Mk 1 drives me nuts at times, even in my midship master. I might get used to it, but also may have to smooth over the hard chine until a bit below the waterline. At first with an easily removed fairing of some kind.

The Nordhavn Coastal Pilots have a couple of important features. Firstly they are not painfully slow. Second, the draft is in line with what you want for use in tropical waters around the world. And they look better too.

The typical Nordhavn's draft is just too deep, and too limiting for extended cruising in low latitudes. Of course, that draft is a plus in high latitudes. In those latitudes the high displacement is of benefit as well, but in conjunction with l/b ratio it helps kill any chance of reasonable speed. Then there is the windage. Standing at the helm of an N55 is like looking out the window of an office high rise building. Then you climb up to the flybridge. That must be the penthouse balcony. For all their praised passagemaking capability, I also wonder about the helm position being so close to the bow. The various editions of Beebe's book seem to trumpet the need for the helm to be around midships for comfortable ocean crossing.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:14 AM   #38
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No doubt the Fleming 55 looks nice, and the GA flows superbly - all the spaces connect well. But I've only ever been on them at the dock. The one thing I am not keen on is that the master stateroom is in the bow. Their dealers say its fine because there are no hard chines forward and therefore no wave slap. But before I'd hand over a check I would want to have spent a few nights at anchor in one.
The new Fleming 58 changes a lot of things. The location of the master is a key one. It's located mid ship and is full width.
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Old 09-03-2014, 04:22 AM   #39
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The new Fleming 58 changes a lot of things. The location of the master is a key one. It's located mid ship and is full width.
Yes. Nice layout, I also like the twin helm seats. Interesting that it was designed just downriver from me. Norman Wright is a great yard, they did a fabulous job of repairing the shipping damage I incurred at the hands of the Vancouver stevedores a year ago. About $10,000 worth.

But I think its an apples & oranges comparison to the Nordhavn Coastal Pilot. The Fleming is called a 58, but LOA measures 59' (for documentation?) and then 65'5" for a marina. The CP is 59', and given it has 5'10" less waterline length than the Fleming may well be a 59' LOA for a marina. Fleming is 88,000 lb lightship, once again indicating it is a significantly bigger boat. Its standard engines at 500HP seem a bit undersized - could it get above displacement speeds with those? Even with the optional 800HP MAN's would it be able to match the lighter CP with 715HP Cummins? And some are suggesting the CP's 18-20kn capability is barely enough. Was there ever a Fleming 65 (only 2'4" more LWL than the F59) ever delivered with the standard 800HP MAN's? If so, any performance reviews anywhere? I like both the CP59 and the F58, but I'm from Missouri as well until I see some on-water testing.

My slip is 59', so if the time comes when that is rigorously enforced I'd rather stick to 59' LOA (marina LOA). An extension of my Mk1 is looking to be pretty attractive. Although I would love to have the option of 18kn as well, and that ain't happening due to engine choice when I repowered her.
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:35 AM   #40
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From the Coastal Pilot specs;
"Propellers: Hungshen 4-bladed bronze, 32" diameter x 38" pitch (81.28 cm d x 96.52 cm p) counter rotating.

Insequent wrote;
"I don't understand the oversquare props though, at 32 x 38 not just a bit oversquare either. I thought that was a no-no, but would be interested to hear expert comment on that."

Is a 38" dia sound about right? I thought it must be a misprint but a 38" dia prop seems very large but I'm not very familiar w large boats. Must be a misprint. 32 X 28 ?
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