Fathom Yachts vs Nordhavn

[RafterQ]

Any thoughts or experiences? My particular curiosities include initial cost, and sea-worthiness/circumnavigating comparisons of the N40 and Fathom Element & Expedition models. Thanks for sharing any knowledge and opinion!

 

[Larry M]

I'm not sure the Fathem Element &/or Expedition are really circumnavigators. With displacement of around 24,000 lbs, 400 gallons of fuel and a 425 hp engine vs 50,000 lb displacement for the Nordhavn which carries 900 gallons of fuel and has a 107 hp engine.

 

[N4061]

Sir, you are comparing two totally different types of boats here. Nordhavn's are ver heavily build, long range, ocean going full displacement hull boats. The Fathom boat that I was aboard last month at the Seattle Boat Show was a lightweight semi-displacement hull boat. If you are serious about long distance cruising with ports far apart you may want to lean towards Nordhavn or Kadey Krogen with their larger full tanks and full displacement hulls and stabilizers. Both boats are proven and hold their values.

One significant design concern I had with boat Fathom 40(?) I boarded in Seattle was that there was no engine room access from within the boat. To perform hourly engine room checks you would have to go outside the safety of the cabin to the aft deck and lift up a hatch to walk in. This is not something you want to do every hour in rough seas or at night. I view this a major safety design flaw.

Our two N40's offered fire proof access doors with a window to check for smoke (save me on one occasion) and 360 degree access to the main engine.

Based upon your written plans I would look more towards a Nordhavn or KK. Feel free to contact me directly at N4061@yahoo.com with any specific questions on the N40's.

John T. (N4050 & N0461 - former owners, close to purchasing N3)

 

[magicbus]

I have to agree that these are in entirely different classes. As far as circumnavigation with only a 400 gallon capacity your travels will be restricted to a very small world!

Dave

 

[RafterQ]

Much obliged for the replies. I saw the N40 and almost instantly fell in love with the rugged look and build of the vessel, and especially the thought and engineering that went into her engine room. I reckon when I discovered the Fathom with it's similar lines, self-described as ECONOMICAL (their emphasis, not mine), my thinking got away regarding the difference in hull displacement, but you have answered my question. Thanks again!

 

[pilothouse king]

I had the chance to look into the hull of a Nordhavn 46' that fell off it's jack stands in a Ft. Lauderdale boatyard. What I saw shocked me (and I took photos!)- the entire hull side shattered like a egg shell, where the stabilizers were-it ripped out the hull, so I could stick my head in and peak about. I'd always heard about their "heavy construction", but it must be ballast or something, because the hull was thin, thin, thin, and the glass fibers were dry, dry, dry as they didn't get any resin. Having previously discovered myself once is a sea of submerged barrels when the sun rose, as I was surfing down waves in the Gulf Stream at 8 knots (Morgan OI 41') I would NOT want to have been in a Nordhavn in such an event. A owner told me "well, at displacement speeds, the water would likely push the barrels away from the hull without causing damage". OK. But what if you hit something that didn't get pushed away? Like a log, or a container? If I hadn't of seen it-I wouldn't had believed it.

 

[Odysseus]

I have the same question - and am still figuring out what I want to move up to a few years for retirement, what style of boating I will want later. I live in the PNW so a faster weekend boat has its advantages.

Boats I'm looking at:

Selene 42 Euro, 45
American Tug 395
Defever 45 (49 is nice but getting on the big side for the PNW)
Northwest Yacht 37, 42, 45
Nordhavn 40, 43
Grandbanks 43 Euro

I'm also looking at the Fathom Yachts. The thing I'll be looking at is the longevity of these new companies. I am of the camp to get the smallest boat that will get me to my location and that I can live with. I may be more inclined to ship my boat to the general location and cruise and ship and cruise. My spouse isn't the type to learn to maintain a boat - i.e. only one mechanic on board.

 

[N4061]

Response to a Brokers Comments

I had the chance to look into the hull of a Nordhavn 46' that fell off it's jack stands in a Ft. Lauderdale boatyard. What I saw shocked me (and I took photos!)-


Interesting that a broker who specializes in mid-size, twin-engine semi-displacement boats felt the need to step in and comment on another brand boat when the discussion has nothing to do with him or the type of boat he sells. I didn't realize this site was designed for brokers to try and promote their products even if indirectly.

If anyone wants to doubt the structural integrity of the N46 I would check out the Voyage of Egret website and see where they have traveled the past 17 years in their N46.

I think I need to rethink if this is the right sight for me since I thought it was designed to for boaters to assist other boaters. Not for brokers to discredit other brands in an attempt to some how try and make a sale (not very professional in my opinion).

Now that this broker has me started I will advise that we just received word today that our offer on our third Nordhavn was accepted and we start the sea-trial / inspection process next week. To show the level of confidence I have in Nordhavn boats my offer was made "sight unseen" and on the trust I have with staff at PAE who know the boat.

I don't see any of them discrediting other brand boats but then again they don't have to. They know what their boats have and can do!

John T (N4050 & N4061 and N3 in-process)

 

[sunchaser]

I had the chance to look into the hull of a Nordhavn 46' that fell off it's jack stands in a Ft. Lauderdale boatyard. What I saw shocked me (and I took photos!)it.

I would guess the pictures were shared with the insurers and Nordhavn? If so, maybe a post or two here of same would be of benefit. Is this the vessel that was bounced off the hard during a hurricane?

 

[pilothouse king]

I had the chance to look into the hull of a Nordhavn 46' that fell off it's jack stands in a Ft. Lauderdale boatyard. What I saw shocked me (and I took photos!)-


Interesting that a broker who specializes in mid-size, twin-engine semi-displacement boats felt the need to step in and comment on another brand boat when the discussion has nothing to do with him or the type of boat he sells. I didn't realize this site was designed for brokers to try and promote their products even if indirectly.

If anyone wants to doubt the structural integrity of the N46 I would check out the Voyage of Egret website and see where they have traveled the past 17 years in their N46.

I think I need to rethink if this is the right sight for me since I thought it was designed to for boaters to assist other boaters. Not for brokers to discredit other brands in an attempt to some how try and make a sale (not very professional in my opinion).

Now that this broker has me started I will advise that we just received word today that our offer on our third Nordhavn was accepted and we start the sea-trial / inspection process next week. To show the level of confidence I have in Nordhavn boats my offer was made "sight unseen" and on the trust I have with staff at PAE who know the boat.

I don't see any of them discrediting other brand boats but then again they don't have to. They know what their boats have and can do!

John T (N4050 & N4061 and N3 in-process)

Because of my occupation I'm not allowed to say what I've seen? I'm not a dealer pushing any competitor at all, I just happen to be a broker, and I've had Nordhavn's listed before, so I was as surprised as could be when I stumbled across one that I could look in. I mentioned I was in a Morgan OI 41' Sailboat (my boat) , that's about as far away from "twin engine semi displacement" as can be.
I'm not here bashing or promoting anything. I'm responding to the thread the same as you. I'm to be censored? If you were a Pilot for Delta, and happened to see a crash of another airliner, would you not be allowed to say what you saw? It IS what it IS isn't it? Right above my post somebody mentioned them being heavy displacement, and from what I saw of this one (1) 46' I would be curious where the weight is at? I can see it in a Hatteras. I'm guessing I'm now going to have to go through my photos and prove what I saw? I've seen LOTS of boats of all brands wrecked here. Hurricanes alone will stack fields hundreds deep of about every brand there is. Reef's get their share, fires, collisions, and just accidents. I feel lucky to look inside them.
It's always a surprise what I discover hidden away where the builders never expected anybody to ever see, back behind the liners and the hull. Like being a coroner, one get's to see literally the bones.
There I censored myself . Website link is gone. You happy yet? NOW can I speak?

 

[pilothouse king]

I would guess the pictures were shared with the insurers and Nordhavn? If so, maybe a post or two here of same would be of benefit. Is this the vessel that was bounced off the hard during a hurricane?

It fell off it's jack stands in the yard is what I was told. Plop. The stabilizer acted like a can opener and tore open the side, where I could look in and see the quite a long way in all directions. I think that's what I said.

 

[Odysseus]

It fell off it's jack stands in the yard is what I was told. Plop. The stabilizer acted like a can opener and tore open the side, where I could look in and see the quite a long way in all directions. I think that's what I said.

I think most people want to be back on the subject vs addressing a broker who somehow thinks it is valuable pointing out that stabilizer are not designed to carry the full weight of the boat when dropped...

I suggest banning you...

 

[Conrad]

I think most people want to be back on the subject vs addressing a broker who somehow thinks it is valuable pointing out that stabilizer are not designed to carry the full weight of the boat when dropped...

I suggest banning you...

???? His point was not necessarily that it was too flimsy to withstand falling off the the stands -any boat could suffer the same fate if the height was high enough.

The point was that he observed that the hull was surprisingly thin. Reporting an observation does not a banishment make.

 

[Codger2]

The point was that he observed that the hull was surprisingly thin. Reporting an observation does not a banishment make.

 

[RT Firefly]

Chill
bro...

 

[RafterQ]

N4061 -> Congrats on the new vessel! I have done some energetic research on Nordhavn online, and am familiar with many of the N-blogs out there, most notably the Egret, Eliana, and Shear Madness, and the experiences of those vessels gives me great faith in the Nordhavn build & durability. Hope the "ruckus" ends peaceably

 

[Odysseus]

Please provide a thickness map,FEM models of all the boats noted above with m.s., and SEM pictures of all noted failures. What percentage of resin content did you observe in the SEM?

Personally - I am interested in the subject of the thread...

As an aerospace engineer and expert in composites - I call BS.

Used boats salesman...

 

[Daddyo]

Pilothouse King,
I would suggest you ease your way in a bit more slowly and earn your credibility in this forum. Many of us move along rather pragmatically (like our boats) here. As to dropping a boat off of stands onto stabilizers, I don't think I would want to see how any manufacturer would fare in that scenario.

 

[hollywood8118]

I will also call bullshit to the brokers comment...
Nordhavn hulls must be failing with such poor construction on a daily basis.
I doubt ANY hull can withstand a drop that shoves a stabilizer directly into the hull. Any fiberglass hull that is subjected to enough of a point load will produce a tearing separation of the laminate that looks " dry".
As the most successful true production passage makers Nordhavn has proven it can do the task as designed.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Baker]

I was selling my boat(FSBO) and the buyer hired a surveyor. It was a single engine boat with a protected rudder and prop with a shoe. The surveyor literally hung with the entire weight of his body off of the prop shoe until it finally budged an inch or so(the rudder shaft). The load was downward from the hull. And then he rolled his eyes and mumbled something like it was some design flaw. I asked him when it would EVER be subject to a load like that??? He had no answer. SO the survey went on and I got out of the way. When it was over we were milling about the parking lot. I found out which car was his. It had a standard exterior antenna for the radio. I walked over to it and grabbed it and bent it until it snapped. And then I said, "This must be a poorly designed antenna!". I walked away. I think he got the point. The point is, there will never be a downward load on a prop shoe...just like there will never be a load like the one I put on that antenna....just like there will never be a load like a boat falling onto the cement on it's stabilizer....

 

[Tidahapah]

If I wasn't so in love with and in debt with my own boat I would have a Nordy 46 at the drop of a hat. A 50 would be good and a 52 my real choice.
I would have no qualms buying with minimal inspection knowing and having read most stuff about these boats especially if the inspections and listings were done by PAE them selves..
OK some models may look a bit boxy but the originals still take the cake as good all condition , ocean crossing , coastal cruising motor boats.

Any boat falling or grounding on its stabiliser fins will suffer severe damage even a steel boat may not come out unscathed.
Numerous passenger ferries have monster holes ripped in their hulls when the retractable fins were not retracted when berthing.
My 2 cents worth.
Cheers
Benn

 

[Daddyo]

I was selling my boat(FSBO) and the buyer hired a surveyor. It was a single engine boat with a protected rudder and prop with a shoe. The surveyor literally hung with the entire weight of his body off of the prop shoe until it finally budged an inch or so(the rudder shaft). The load was downward from the hull. And then he rolled his eyes and mumbled something like it was some design flaw. I asked him when it would EVER be subject to a load like that??? He had no answer. SO the survey went on and I got out of the way. When it was over we were milling about the parking lot. I found out which car was his. It had a standard exterior antenna for the radio. I walked over to it and grabbed it and bent it until it snapped. And then I said, "This must be a poorly designed antenna!". I walked away. I think he got the point. The point is, there will never be a downward load on a prop shoe...just like there will never be a load like the one I put on that antenna....just like there will never be a load like a boat falling onto the cement on it's stabilizer....

I really hope that was true because that is funny as #@%&!!

 

[Baker]

True story....I was exasperated with this dude.

 

[ksanders]

Guys I've known Blake Davis for a very long time. He can be very matter of fact in the way that he states things. That said, if he's telling an untruth here, it's the first one I've ever heard him tell.

I have also heard about his impressions of the thickness of the N46 hull that he personally observed. I have heard the story several times over a period of years.

He did not now, nor have I ever heard him say anything bad about the N46, or it's strength. He was merely passing on his personal observations as to the thickness, and his surprise that it was not thicker.

You guys are treating him like he is pushing his listed boats, or like he has something to sell, and that is just not the case here.

To anybody that would even suggest banning or censoring someone who posts his personal observations... Thicken up your skin a little. None of our boats are above honest criticism, or posting our personal observations.

Blake, I believe you. I also believe that the N46, and Nordhavn boats in general almost define modern passagemakers. So, while the hull thickness clearly surprised you, the track record of the N46 speakers for itself.

 

[FF]

a broker who somehow thinks it is valuable pointing out that stabilizer are not designed to carry the full weight of the boat when dropped

The engineering is supposed to have the stabilizer sheer off not rip the hull apart.

Dropped in an unexpected direction can mess up the best engineering .

A high glass content is the goal of every GRP shop, the shredded hull laminate will always look dry on fracruring.

GRP is almost always strong enough , the hassle is getting it stiff enough.

For ocean work on inspected vessels the hull has to be 400% over strong to get the thickness not to wiggle about and die.

Lots of glass or a core is the std method of adding stiffness.

On a displacement boat for ocean work , where weight is a small handycap I would expect the hull to be over thick , just in case.

Would be interesting to find out if the unbroken hull was 1/4 thick or 3/4 thick as -thin- is too subjective.

 

[gwkiwi]

True story....I was exasperated with this dude.

Good for you...

 

[Baker]

Guys I've known Blake Davis for a very long time. He can be very matter of fact in the way that he states things. That said, if he's telling an untruth here, it's the first one I've ever heard him tell.

I have also heard about his impressions of the thickness of the N46 hull that he personally observed. I have heard the story several times over a period of years.

He did not now, nor have I ever heard him say anything bad about the N46, or it's strength. He was merely passing on his personal observations as to the thickness, and his surprise that it was not thicker.

You guys are treating him like he is pushing his listed boats, or like he has something to sell, and that is just not the case here.

To anybody that would even suggest banning or censoring someone who posts his personal observations... Thicken up your skin a little. None of our boats are above honest criticism, or posting our personal observations.

Blake, I believe you. I also believe that the N46, and Nordhavn boats in general almost define modern passagemakers. So, while the hull thickness clearly surprised you, the track record of the N46 speakers for itself.

Tell him to stick around...ain't nobody banning nobody.

 

[hollywood8118]

I think the issue here is that a broker, not and engineer or other qualified individual thinks the hull of a Nordhavn is too thin... just because it sustained significant damage on a drop onto concrete.
What qualification does he have to back this statement up??
If the boats suffered crazing, delamination, stress cracking, excessive blistering, water intrusion or any other form of laminate failure then he might have a reason to comment.
But Nordhavn's don't suffer any of these issues, and I believe they probably have the most blue water miles accumulated of any manufacturer.
Or , maybe I am all wet and he is comparing this boat to the other dozen or so boats that he has seen drop in a similar fashion... If that is the case I want to know the yard he uses as I want to steer really clear of them..

HOLLYWOOD

 

[cafesport]

I think the issue here is that a broker, not and engineer or other qualified individual thinks the hull of a Nordhavn is too thin... just because it sustained significant damage on a drop onto concrete. What qualification does he have to back this statement up?? If the boats suffered crazing, delamination, stress cracking, excessive blistering, water intrusion or any other form of laminate failure then he might have a reason to comment. But Nordhavn's don't suffer any of these issues, and I believe they probably have the most blue water miles accumulated of any manufacturer. Or , maybe I am all wet and he is comparing this boat to the other dozen or so boats that he has seen drop in a similar fashion... If that is the case I want to know the yard he uses as I want to steer really clear of them.. HOLLYWOOD

I'm probably going to be sorry for even getting involved it such a ridiculous thread but...here goes.
First of all the comparison is like comparing a ping pong ball to a bowling ball.
The more interesting thing for me are some of the pilot house guy's comments.

Having come from a sailing background and having been on a few POS morgan outhouse 41's as well as a Nordhavn 46 I can say that without any doubt I will take the Nordhavn over the Morgan for any serious passage making. Hell I'd take the kon tiki before the Morgan. I've seen Morgan's oil can in rolly anchorages. Doing 8 knots in an outhouse only happens when you are surfing in following seas. Those big fat flat transoms really are ill mannered when they get smacked in the ass, so good luck to you mate. I'll take the canoe stern on the Nordhavn thank you.

If you are familiar with Mason sailboats and their build quality I think you'll agree that the people at PAE actually know how to build a quality boat. Also if you are familiar with egret flats boats I think you'll find those to be of exceptional quality. The original owner of egret boats cashed out and bought one of the late model 46's and took it around the world the hard way. High and low latitudes. That boat btw is named egret.

Now is it perhaps possible that in your rush to judge a nordhavn by poking your head out from where it was to where it didn't belong that you might have over looked or perhaps misjudged something. Tell us was the boat repaired or did the owner take the insurance check and buy a matching set of bayliners and morgans. Agree or not the market for these boats is strong and they sell at a premium to people who have the money and not from lottery winnings. When Scott Flanders decided to cash out and pursue his dream he had Nordhavn build him his boat. Now she's for sale and he'll move on like many before him. If your phone doesn't ring it's probably a nordie owner.

Btw ph were neighbors so let's meet for a rum and discuss it sometime.

Via iPad using Trawler

 

[sunchaser]

I note that PHKing has deleted that he is a broker for Meridian/Bayliner. That experience certainly gives him the knowledge to critique boats designed to the myriad of Ocean Rated Standards, or does it?

My take on this is PHKing did what pervades the internet, whiskey talk at midnight.