Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-06-2013, 02:41 AM   #21
Guru
 
Tidahapah's Avatar
 
City: Mooloolaba
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Tidahapah
Vessel Model: Bert Ellis Timber motor cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,779
If I wasn't so in love with and in debt with my own boat I would have a Nordy 46 at the drop of a hat. A 50 would be good and a 52 my real choice.
I would have no qualms buying with minimal inspection knowing and having read most stuff about these boats especially if the inspections and listings were done by PAE them selves..
OK some models may look a bit boxy but the originals still take the cake as good all condition , ocean crossing , coastal cruising motor boats.

Any boat falling or grounding on its stabiliser fins will suffer severe damage even a steel boat may not come out unscathed.
Numerous passenger ferries have monster holes ripped in their hulls when the retractable fins were not retracted when berthing.
My 2 cents worth.
Cheers
Benn
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
"When I die I hope my wife doesn't sell my toys for what I told her I paid for them"
Money: It's made round to go round , not flat to stack.
"Get out and do it"
Tidahapah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 02:43 AM   #22
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar


 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
I was selling my boat(FSBO) and the buyer hired a surveyor. It was a single engine boat with a protected rudder and prop with a shoe. The surveyor literally hung with the entire weight of his body off of the prop shoe until it finally budged an inch or so(the rudder shaft). The load was downward from the hull. And then he rolled his eyes and mumbled something like it was some design flaw. I asked him when it would EVER be subject to a load like that??? He had no answer. SO the survey went on and I got out of the way. When it was over we were milling about the parking lot. I found out which car was his. It had a standard exterior antenna for the radio. I walked over to it and grabbed it and bent it until it snapped. And then I said, "This must be a poorly designed antenna!". I walked away. I think he got the point. The point is, there will never be a downward load on a prop shoe...just like there will never be a load like the one I put on that antenna....just like there will never be a load like a boat falling onto the cement on it's stabilizer....
I really hope that was true because that is funny as #@%&!!
__________________

__________________
Mark Bowerman
Brokerage owner and cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
http://graceyachting.com/
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 02:50 AM   #23
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,633
True story....I was exasperated with this dude.
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 03:13 AM   #24
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,956
Guys I've known Blake Davis for a very long time. He can be very matter of fact in the way that he states things. That said, if he's telling an untruth here, it's the first one I've ever heard him tell.

I have also heard about his impressions of the thickness of the N46 hull that he personally observed. I have heard the story several times over a period of years.

He did not now, nor have I ever heard him say anything bad about the N46, or it's strength. He was merely passing on his personal observations as to the thickness, and his surprise that it was not thicker.

You guys are treating him like he is pushing his listed boats, or like he has something to sell, and that is just not the case here.

To anybody that would even suggest banning or censoring someone who posts his personal observations... Thicken up your skin a little. None of our boats are above honest criticism, or posting our personal observations.

Blake, I believe you. I also believe that the N46, and Nordhavn boats in general almost define modern passagemakers. So, while the hull thickness clearly surprised you, the track record of the N46 speakers for itself.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 07:29 AM   #25
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
a broker who somehow thinks it is valuable pointing out that stabilizer are not designed to carry the full weight of the boat when dropped

The engineering is supposed to have the stabilizer sheer off not rip the hull apart.

Dropped in an unexpected direction can mess up the best engineering .

A high glass content is the goal of every GRP shop, the shredded hull laminate will always look dry on fracruring.

GRP is almost always strong enough , the hassle is getting it stiff enough.

For ocean work on inspected vessels the hull has to be 400% over strong to get the thickness not to wiggle about and die.

Lots of glass or a core is the std method of adding stiffness.

On a displacement boat for ocean work , where weight is a small handycap I would expect the hull to be over thick , just in case.

Would be interesting to find out if the unbroken hull was 1/4 thick or 3/4 thick as -thin- is too subjective.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 08:59 AM   #26
Guru
 
gwkiwi's Avatar
 
City: Juno Beach, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Takes Two
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
True story....I was exasperated with this dude.
Good for you...
gwkiwi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 10:04 AM   #27
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Guys I've known Blake Davis for a very long time. He can be very matter of fact in the way that he states things. That said, if he's telling an untruth here, it's the first one I've ever heard him tell.

I have also heard about his impressions of the thickness of the N46 hull that he personally observed. I have heard the story several times over a period of years.

He did not now, nor have I ever heard him say anything bad about the N46, or it's strength. He was merely passing on his personal observations as to the thickness, and his surprise that it was not thicker.

You guys are treating him like he is pushing his listed boats, or like he has something to sell, and that is just not the case here.

To anybody that would even suggest banning or censoring someone who posts his personal observations... Thicken up your skin a little. None of our boats are above honest criticism, or posting our personal observations.

Blake, I believe you. I also believe that the N46, and Nordhavn boats in general almost define modern passagemakers. So, while the hull thickness clearly surprised you, the track record of the N46 speakers for itself.
Tell him to stick around...ain't nobody banning nobody.
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 10:58 AM   #28
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Country: USA
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,482
I think the issue here is that a broker, not and engineer or other qualified individual thinks the hull of a Nordhavn is too thin... just because it sustained significant damage on a drop onto concrete.
What qualification does he have to back this statement up??
If the boats suffered crazing, delamination, stress cracking, excessive blistering, water intrusion or any other form of laminate failure then he might have a reason to comment.
But Nordhavn's don't suffer any of these issues, and I believe they probably have the most blue water miles accumulated of any manufacturer.
Or , maybe I am all wet and he is comparing this boat to the other dozen or so boats that he has seen drop in a similar fashion... If that is the case I want to know the yard he uses as I want to steer really clear of them..

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 11:42 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
cafesport's Avatar
 
City: Miami
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywood8118 View Post
I think the issue here is that a broker, not and engineer or other qualified individual thinks the hull of a Nordhavn is too thin... just because it sustained significant damage on a drop onto concrete. What qualification does he have to back this statement up?? If the boats suffered crazing, delamination, stress cracking, excessive blistering, water intrusion or any other form of laminate failure then he might have a reason to comment. But Nordhavn's don't suffer any of these issues, and I believe they probably have the most blue water miles accumulated of any manufacturer. Or , maybe I am all wet and he is comparing this boat to the other dozen or so boats that he has seen drop in a similar fashion... If that is the case I want to know the yard he uses as I want to steer really clear of them.. HOLLYWOOD
I'm probably going to be sorry for even getting involved it such a ridiculous thread but...here goes.
First of all the comparison is like comparing a ping pong ball to a bowling ball.
The more interesting thing for me are some of the pilot house guy's comments.

Having come from a sailing background and having been on a few POS morgan outhouse 41's as well as a Nordhavn 46 I can say that without any doubt I will take the Nordhavn over the Morgan for any serious passage making. Hell I'd take the kon tiki before the Morgan. I've seen Morgan's oil can in rolly anchorages. Doing 8 knots in an outhouse only happens when you are surfing in following seas. Those big fat flat transoms really are ill mannered when they get smacked in the ass, so good luck to you mate. I'll take the canoe stern on the Nordhavn thank you.

If you are familiar with Mason sailboats and their build quality I think you'll agree that the people at PAE actually know how to build a quality boat. Also if you are familiar with egret flats boats I think you'll find those to be of exceptional quality. The original owner of egret boats cashed out and bought one of the late model 46's and took it around the world the hard way. High and low latitudes. That boat btw is named egret.

Now is it perhaps possible that in your rush to judge a nordhavn by poking your head out from where it was to where it didn't belong that you might have over looked or perhaps misjudged something. Tell us was the boat repaired or did the owner take the insurance check and buy a matching set of bayliners and morgans. Agree or not the market for these boats is strong and they sell at a premium to people who have the money and not from lottery winnings. When Scott Flanders decided to cash out and pursue his dream he had Nordhavn build him his boat. Now she's for sale and he'll move on like many before him. If your phone doesn't ring it's probably a nordie owner.

Btw ph were neighbors so let's meet for a rum and discuss it sometime.

Via iPad using Trawler
__________________
Via iOS.
cafesport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 11:54 AM   #30
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,376
I note that PHKing has deleted that he is a broker for Meridian/Bayliner. That experience certainly gives him the knowledge to critique boats designed to the myriad of Ocean Rated Standards, or does it?

My take on this is PHKing did what pervades the internet, whiskey talk at midnight.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 01:14 PM   #31
Guru
 
BobH's Avatar
 
City: Montgomery, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Model: None, but looking
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 779
I really hate to get involved in this, but the point wasn't that the stabilizers tore the hull, the point was that he thought the hull appeared to be very thin. The stabilizers making the hole just allowed him to get a look at the hull thickness.

Bob
BobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 04:04 PM   #32
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
there will never be a load like a boat falling onto the cement on it's stabilizer....
I can't speak to the thickness or lay up of the Nordhavn hulls, but a 40 or 50,000# boat falling on its stabilizer creates a helluva point load. Concentrate that weight on a few square inches, and it will pierce almost anything.
__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express & Blackfin 25 CC
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
http://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 05:29 PM   #33
Guru
 
BobH's Avatar
 
City: Montgomery, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Model: None, but looking
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 779
Read the posts, nobody ever suggested that the stabilizer should have supported the boat. The whole discussion started because there was a hole in the boat allowing somebody to look at the thickness of the hull. How the hole got there was and is totally irrelevant.

Bob
BobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 06:27 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Chuck Gould's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dear Prudence
Vessel Model: Eagle 40
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 131
Pretty tough to compare

Quote:
Originally Posted by RafterQ View Post
Any thoughts or experiences? My particular curiosities include initial cost, and sea-worthiness/circumnavigating comparisons of the N40 and Fathom Element & Expedition models. Thanks for sharing any knowledge and opinion!
The Fathom is more of a coastal cruiser vs. a passage maker.

FYI, most likely any Fathoms you see going forward will be previously owned. I have been told be a very reliable and informed source that they are selling off the molds and tooling, and not necessarily to a single buyer with any intention to revive production. I thought the Fathoms were fine boats, but if you want to "circumnavigate" there are probably some designs a little more suited for that application.
Chuck Gould is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 06:57 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
magicbus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 460
Wasn't Fathom a collaborative effort by some big name trawler designers to create an "in-between" vessel?

Dave
__________________
Barnegat Light NJ or Nantucket MA
magicbus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 07:12 PM   #36
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicbus View Post
Wasn't Fathom a collaborative effort by some big name trawler designers to create an "in-between" vessel?

Dave
I thought Fathom, like American Tugs, was started by ex-Nordic Tugs employees.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 08:00 PM   #37
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,202
That 46 must have been repaired and returned to service. Not long ago on the Nordhavn Owners site there was an "inventory" of the 500+ boats placed in service so far. Only two are no longer in service. One grounded and has been slowly breaking up over the past several years on the Mexican Coast. The fact that is lasted as long as it did with constant hammering from surf speaks well for the hull construction. The other casualty was a tragic fire in Thailand that burned a boat to the water line. Both lost boats were 62s, but I don't think that signifies anything. There were several others badly damaged from various mishaps, but all have been returned to service.

Nordhavn's aren't perfect, just like any other boat. But when it comes to ocean-going power boats there really aren't very many boats built for the task, and up to the task. Of the few, I think the Nordhavn's cleanly stand ahead of the crowd. Others are capable, but I think every hour of every day there is a Nordhavn making a crossing somewhere in the world. I don't think any other manufacturer comes close.
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 08:43 PM   #38
Guru
 
pilothouse king's Avatar


 
City: St. Lucie VILLAGE -NOT- Port St. Lucie!!!!!
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 15' Hobie Power Skiff w/90hp Yamaha-owned 28 years. Also a 2001 Bayliner 3788 that I took in trade
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 533
The hull looked thin to us-compared to other boats. That's ALL I was saying. The "how" was not the issue! Click image for larger version

Name:	46' Nordhavn.jpg
Views:	492
Size:	106.0 KB
ID:	23451

Click image for larger version

Name:	46'Nordhavn Fin.jpg
Views:	427
Size:	103.6 KB
ID:	23452
__________________
.
Blake Davis Yacht Brokerage Inc

Yacht Broker/Owner since 1984, Florida License #32
pilothouse king is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 09:54 PM   #39
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,956
Well, there are the photos.

I do believe that a few contributors to this thread might owe Blake an apology. I wish Io could find a little happy face thingie for eating crow.

I have to say that I thought the hull would be thicker as well!

What amazes me the most is how far fiberglass engineering has come from the early days of fiberglass boats. I remember seeing much thicker cross sections on the through hulls of old Hatteras, and the like.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 10:09 PM   #40
Guru
 
pilothouse king's Avatar


 
City: St. Lucie VILLAGE -NOT- Port St. Lucie!!!!!
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 15' Hobie Power Skiff w/90hp Yamaha-owned 28 years. Also a 2001 Bayliner 3788 that I took in trade
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafesport View Post
The more interesting thing for me are some of the pilot house guy's comments.

Having come from a sailing background and having been on a few POS morgan outhouse 41's as well as a Nordhavn 46 I can say that without any doubt I will take the Nordhavn over the Morgan for any serious passage making. Hell I'd take the kon tiki before the Morgan. I've seen Morgan's oil can in rolly anchorages. Doing 8 knots in an outhouse only happens when you are surfing in following seas. Those big fat flat transoms really are ill mannered when they get smacked in the ass, so good luck to you mate. I'll take the canoe stern on the Nordhavn thank you.

If you are familiar with Mason sailboats and their build quality I think you'll agree that the people at PAE actually know how to build a quality boat. Also if you are familiar with egret flats boats I think you'll find those to be of exceptional quality.
Via iPad using Trawler
The OI 41' was a tool for back when I ran charters (at 31-34 yro) from Miami to the Bahamas and Key's mostly with college kids from charters that Nancy from Florida Yacht Charters booked. It was nothing but a 'Checker cab of the sea's' which was perfect due to it's 4' draft, and it's thick excellent rubrail that allowed me to dock by braille in scruffy marina's and along seawalls over there. It's shallow draft also allowed it to surf quite well in following sea's, in addition of being able to bounce along sand bottoms! And since we were on timetables without regard to weather I would regularly ride North East winds back to Florida surfing down waves higher than the mizzen spreaders at 8.5 knots. Rode NW winds over where there were 20' waves rolling in between Gun Cay and Cat Cays. I remember one girl saying "I just got back from Hawaii, and didn't know they had waves like that in the Bahama's". With my heart in my throat watching outbound SF have waves break over their TOWER, I said "yeah, they do" (it was a surprise to me, but once committed, there's no turning around!!). I have nothing bad to say about the boats at all. Easy to clean, fast off the wind, big engine for going against it, easy to clean in and out. Several have done Trans-Atlantic races (note the photos). The MASONS built by PAE were all 6' draft's (weren't they?) and I don't remember any rub rails of note, and they certainly had too much bright work (teak decks too?) in and out for hoards of drunken college kids with their hard suitcases. The Morgan OUT ISLANDS were built for work. You never saw one ever "oil can"- you might have seen a Morgan built Nelson Marek do so. Those were thin boats that were raced. My POINT about the Morgan was that I was NOT "pushing mid range semi-displacement powerboats" as some accused. I happened to find myself in a sea of semi submerged 50 gallon barrels as the sun rose about 20 miles off Florida after a night of surfing down said waves with 5 kids sleeping down below for the past 7 hours! When I saw the aforementioned boat (note photos) it immediately reminded me of that morning decades earlier. I've never even had a wave slap the transom in following sea's -as the transom rose and waves passed under. Usually had the two windows open back there when engine off, as kids needed the breeze. They were great tools. I don't think you could kill one if you tried. I had a OI 51' get impaled (on her left side above the waterline) on a rock in St. Thomas during Hugo, and it had a hole in it big enough to drive a car through. Yet after the crane picked her off the rock-she was towed back to St. Thomas, patched back up, and went back in service with no problems. OTHER boats down there didn't fare as well.
Glad to meet you. How about a Cuban Coffee? A coffee and a ride through Earhart trails?!! whoop whoop.
Wanna see sailboats? Look at my pages of old print ads from the old days on my website. LOTS of sailboats. Lot's of everything.
__________________

__________________
.
Blake Davis Yacht Brokerage Inc

Yacht Broker/Owner since 1984, Florida License #32
pilothouse king is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
element, expedition, fathom, n40, nordhavn

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012