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Old 12-05-2018, 01:39 PM   #21
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Docking will be the major constraint for two. Surprised they don't build many of the big ones with twin engines. That would make bringing the boat up to the dock smoothly much easier so tying off would be less of a problem.


Underway it is a matter of comfort and sharing the watch. Its not like you need one at the helm and another in the engine room all of the time. Once away from shipping, you should be able to do it with two ok.


David
Bow and stern thrusters work wonders for docking independence.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:26 PM   #22
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Can a boat that size be run by a wife/husband crew of two?

Absolutely. I personally know probably a half dozen couples who run the same boat.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:27 PM   #23
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Unbeknowst to TT, I have already hollowed out a small cabin for myself where he'll never find it. He'll notice the food missing from the refer, perhaps, but he'll never find me.

I thought I heard a scratching sound.....
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:31 PM   #24
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Docking will be the major constraint for two. Surprised they don't build many of the big ones with twin engines. That would make bringing the boat up to the dock smoothly much easier so tying off would be less of a problem.


Underway it is a matter of comfort and sharing the watch. Its not like you need one at the helm and another in the engine room all of the time. Once away from shipping, you should be able to do it with two ok.


David

Wing stations so you can look right down the side of the boat while docking, and 40hp bow and stern thrusters help too.


I know people who use the thrusters to pin the boat to the dock, then walk out and tie the lines, all single handed. Not my preference, but it can be done if needed.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:39 PM   #25
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Sounds like a great plan. My parents also died young and that makes me slightly more focused, but my parents also died as a result of lifestyle choices and bad habits I don't have. That's the real reminder I think of is to not do things that are known to shorten life expectancy. My wife and I have made a commitment to each other to take fitness seriously, not smoke, drink rarely, and even to eat healthier than we otherwise might. My parents died at the ages of 59 and 68, both heart related. My wife's parents died in an auto accident but she had long been estranged and wasn't aware until much later.

We also have the desire to cross to Europe. Always nice to see others who do, since so many argue in favor of shipping the boat. Just not the same.

My father died of bad health choices. He smoked a lot, drank more than was healthy, and was badly over weight. One day he just keeled over and was dead before he hit the ground. It was a surprise, but not a surprise. He was 63. My mother, on the other hand, came down with a rare form of lung cancer in her mid 50's, unrelated to second hand smoke or other environmental causes. She died at age 60 of pure bad luck. So I've seen both causes, and hope avoid both, though I could do with losing some weight.....
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:50 PM   #26
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TT, Congrats on your new build, you must be very excited.

Are people with similar sized N's using Yacht Controllers?
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:55 PM   #27
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Wing stations so you can look right down the side of the boat while docking, and 40hp bow and stern thrusters help too.


I know people who use the thrusters to pin the boat to the dock, then walk out and tie the lines, all single handed. Not my preference, but it can be done if needed.
I cant imagine not having Bow and Stern thrusters. Pin her and life is good.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:08 PM   #28
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TT - Wet vs. Dry exhaust?

I read on your blog to get more insight into your choice. It mainly emphasized the space issue. Were there other technical reasons that made you change the standard Nordhavn arrangement, or mainly that?
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:17 PM   #29
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I too am interested in the wet vs dry question.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:28 PM   #30
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Absolutely. I personally know probably a half dozen couples who run the same boat.
By the time you get the weight and the thrusters and rudder, docking a N68 would not be an issue. I find it far easier to just gently walk a larger boat in and place it right beside the dock. Now, the task that is a challenge is keeping the boat clean, washdowns and more. That work increases with size and one might just get help from some hands hanging around the docks on occasion. We'd be fine at the handling and operating and docking, but not at all as to maintaining a boat that size.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:44 PM   #31
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TT - Wet vs. Dry exhaust?

I read on your blog to get more insight into your choice. It mainly emphasized the space issue. Were there other technical reasons that made you change the standard Nordhavn arrangement, or mainly that?
Before TT pollutes your mind with his confused views on this subject (), here's an alternate view....

Both wet and dry have their advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of wet is no lost interior space for a raceway for the dry stack, and depending on the motor that is about it. I make that qualification because some motors seem to produce more soot than others. My CAT 3306, for whatever reason, produces almost none if run correctly. If you have experienced a sooty motor, and will have one again with a dry stack then wet starts looking pretty good.

The advantage of a dry stack is no salt water, no salt water pump and impeller to wear out, additional space in the ER, and no possibility of back pressure in the exhaust if the stack pipe is correctly sized. And if you have a clean engine, less labor to clean exhaust residue than with a wet exhaust - the later obviously a function of what have you got to do the cleaning, type of engine, etc.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:44 PM   #32
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By the time you get the weight and the thrusters and rudder, docking a N68 would not be an issue. I find it far easier to just gently walk a larger boat in and place it right beside the dock. Now, the task that is a challenge is keeping the boat clean, washdowns and more. That work increases with size and one might just get help from some hands hanging around the docks on occasion. We'd be fine at the handling and operating and docking, but not at all as to maintaining a boat that size.


Bingo. Lots of acreage to clean. But my wife is up to it. She claims thatís her job, and who am I to argue
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:57 PM   #33
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Bingo. Lots of acreage to clean. But my wife is up to it. She claims thatís her job, and who am I to argue
Your probably already planning on doing so, but make sure you install a hydraulic high pressure washer. Ours saves us SO much time in keeping the exterior clean.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:36 PM   #34
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Before TT pollutes your mind with his confused views on this subject (), here's an alternate view....



Both wet and dry have their advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of wet is no lost interior space for a raceway for the dry stack, and depending on the motor that is about it. I make that qualification because some motors seem to produce more soot than others. My CAT 3306, for whatever reason, produces almost none if run correctly. If you have experienced a sooty motor, and will have one again with a dry stack then wet starts looking pretty good.



The advantage of a dry stack is no salt water, no salt water pump and impeller to wear out, additional space in the ER, and no possibility of back pressure in the exhaust if the stack pipe is correctly sized. And if you have a clean engine, less labor to clean exhaust residue than with a wet exhaust - the later obviously a function of what have you got to do the cleaning, type of engine, etc.


Good comparison. Pollution will be minimal.

I totally agree that both have their advantages and disadvantages, and itís nearly a draw, hence the heated debate. I often argue that the things that matter the least get argued the most, simple because it doesnít matter and is a draw.

For me it was two things, noise and soot.

Noise I think is implementation specific, but our 60 I think was unacceptably loud. I used the fly bridge exactly once, and that was pre delivery to verify everything worked. It was otherwise too loud for my taste. Mid 70s dB as I recall, with a throbbing probably exacerbated by the hardtop. I didnít want to be up there. A while ago I was well down the path of adding a second muffler to quiet it down, until the math showed unacceptable back pressure unless I increased the whole exhaust from 5Ē to 6Ē. So that project got put on the back shelf.

To me, a wet exhaust is loudest in the cockpit where I am least likely to be when underway. Now this may be different for different people. We are about the scenery, not about fishing. If you are about fishing, you might arrive at a different conclusion. No one size fits all.

Re soot, from what I can tell, there are two types. Flakes of soot that land in the deck and make a mess, and a steady mist while underway that coats everything is the airstream.

Many boats suffer the former, but we were spared. We never had soot flakes, and I thank the EPA for that and clean running engines.

What we did have is what I think every diesel has, a constant mist of grime over everything down wind of the exhaust. With a wet exhaust this coats the sides and transom depending on where the exhaust exits. On our dry exhaust it coated everything on the stack including all the instruments and sensors. Believe me, itís way easier to clean your boat side or transom from the cockpit or a tender, than to clean every instrument on your mast 35í in the air. Now in fairness, this again depends on the details of your boat and where everything is located. But for us it was a giant pain in the ass. And as you would clean the mast/stack, all that crap would wash down over the rest of the boat. I have shirts permanently stained with black dots.

Lesson 1: just because fish boats do it doesnít mean itís good for you too. Evaluate with a critical eye.

And on a more minor annoyance, anytime we had a tail wind of more than about 15kts, the exhaust plume would blow forward over our weather instrument and report outside temps of 125F. This is one of the non obvious things to consider.

Moving on to sea water pumps, impellers, and keel coolers.....

Hand in hand with eliminating dry exhaust is the assumption of said raw water pumps and associated maintenance. I truly Hate changing impellers. If you have ever changed one on a larger engine, you know what Iím talking about. It is a real wrestling match. There is a huge difference between changing a 2Ē impeller on a small engine, and a 3Ē or 4Ē impeller on a larger engine. That all favors dry exhaust and more specifically, elimination of raw water pumps.

But like it or not, those darn raw water pumps and their impellers just wonít go away. I used to have a wing engine and a generator requiring impeller changes. And now Iíll have a wing engine and two generators requiring impellers. So whatís the harm in one more? After all, the engine NOT requiring an impeller is odd man out, right?

Now lets look at the flip side. Dry exhaust, or more specifically keel cooler, requires maintenance too. They need to be cleaned or you will find temps climbing. And the zincs on them need to be replaced every 6 months or so. So whether itís changing impellers or cleaning grid coolers and changing zincs, you are doing maintenance on a regular basis.

So whatís the difference, you might ask? Well, since you asked, the difference is whether the work is conducted from inside the boat where it is warm and dry, or in the water where it is cold and wet. Iíll leave it to you to decide. You know where I landed on the question.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:17 PM   #35
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Good comparison. Pollution will be minimal.

I totally agree that both have their advantages and disadvantages, and itís nearly a draw, hence the heated debate. I often argue that the things that matter the least get argued the most, simple because it doesnít matter and is a draw.

For me it was two things, noise and soot.

Noise I think is implementation specific, but our 60 I think was unacceptably loud. I used the fly bridge exactly once, and that was pre delivery to verify everything worked. It was otherwise too loud for my taste. Mid 70s dB as I recall, with a throbbing probably exacerbated by the hardtop. I didnít want to be up there. A while ago I was well down the path of adding a second muffler to quiet it down, until the math showed unacceptable back pressure unless I increased the whole exhaust from 5Ē to 6Ē. So that project got put on the back shelf.

To me, a wet exhaust is loudest in the cockpit where I am least likely to be when underway. Now this may be different for different people. We are about the scenery, not about fishing. If you are about fishing, you might arrive at a different conclusion. No one size fits all.

Re soot, from what I can tell, there are two types. Flakes of soot that land in the deck and make a mess, and a steady mist while underway that coats everything is the airstream.

Many boats suffer the former, but we were spared. We never had soot flakes, and I thank the EPA for that and clean running engines.

What we did have is what I think every diesel has, a constant mist of grime over everything down wind of the exhaust. With a wet exhaust this coats the sides and transom depending on where the exhaust exits. On our dry exhaust it coated everything on the stack including all the instruments and sensors. Believe me, itís way easier to clean your boat side or transom from the cockpit or a tender, than to clean every instrument on your mast 35í in the air. Now in fairness, this again depends on the details of your boat and where everything is located. But for us it was a giant pain in the ass. And as you would clean the mast/stack, all that crap would wash down over the rest of the boat. I have shirts permanently stained with black dots.

Lesson 1: just because fish boats do it doesnít mean itís good for you too. Evaluate with a critical eye.

And on a more minor annoyance, anytime we had a tail wind of more than about 15kts, the exhaust plume would blow forward over our weather instrument and report outside temps of 125F. This is one of the non obvious things to consider.

Moving on to sea water pumps, impellers, and keel coolers.....

Hand in hand with eliminating dry exhaust is the assumption of said raw water pumps and associated maintenance. I truly Hate changing impellers. If you have ever changed one on a larger engine, you know what Iím talking about. It is a real wrestling match. There is a huge difference between changing a 2Ē impeller on a small engine, and a 3Ē or 4Ē impeller on a larger engine. That all favors dry exhaust and more specifically, elimination of raw water pumps.

But like it or not, those darn raw water pumps and their impellers just wonít go away. I used to have a wing engine and a generator requiring impeller changes. And now Iíll have a wing engine and two generators requiring impellers. So whatís the harm in one more? After all, the engine NOT requiring an impeller is odd man out, right?

Now lets look at the flip side. Dry exhaust, or more specifically keel cooler, requires maintenance too. They need to be cleaned or you will find temps climbing. And the zincs on them need to be replaced every 6 months or so. So whether itís changing impellers or cleaning grid coolers and changing zincs, you are doing maintenance on a regular basis.

So whatís the difference, you might ask? Well, since you asked, the difference is whether the work is conducted from inside the boat where it is warm and dry, or in the water where it is cold and wet. Iíll leave it to you to decide. You know where I landed on the question.
I think you nailed it, in that it is very implementation specific. I do get exhaust grime on my mizzen mast, but I can clean that off with around 15 min effort every few months. Probably a wash when compared to cleaning a transom. Any soot I ever see is made short work of with our hydraulic high pressure washdown pump.

The noise factor I hadn't considered, but mostly because our system is pretty quiet. The stack runs up through the deck behind the pilot house, and you can speak in a conservational tone no problem. Since we don't have a flying bridge, that isn't an issue, but I can see how it would be. Regarding impellors, I had two, but eliminated the pump for hydraulic cooling with a Grunfos electric pump that is silent and zero maintenance. Since the cooling for hydraulics is coolant through the old half pipe keep coolers, that works. The other is on the genset, which has wet exhaust and an air water separator and I'm probably stuck with that one since it is raw water. That plus the water maker are the only two used for raw water I have. Just two through hulls, one for supply and one for tank emptying.

Regarding keel coolers, the Walters I have require no grid cooling because that aren't a grid, just cupro nickel tubes, so no maintenance there. However, I do have the zincs on them changed every six months when I have the bottom whisked.

I think the most compelling argument against dry stack is the noise if you have a flying bridge. Otherwise, and depending on other implementation factors, dry exhaust is safer (no sea water) and easier to maintain. At least for me.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:47 PM   #36
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A while back we had a transient Nordhavn 86 moored directly in front of Blue Sky. After it left we had soot all over our foredeck as did another nearby vessel.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:12 PM   #37
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"Many people say buy the smallest boat that will meet your needs."
That's always been my philosophy when buying a boat and it has served me well. Understanding what the true "mission" of the boat will be is the trick. Given that you & your wife are die hard cruisers, your choice makes perfect sense. Best of luck to you both!
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:36 PM   #38
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A while back we had a transient Nordhavn 86 moored directly in front of Blue Sky. After it left we had soot all over our foredeck as did another nearby vessel.
I hear that all too frequently.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:41 PM   #39
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I think you nailed it, in that it is very implementation specific. I do get exhaust grime on my mizzen mast, but I can clean that off with around 15 min effort every few months. Probably a wash when compared to cleaning a transom. Any soot I ever see is made short work of with our hydraulic high pressure washdown pump.

The noise factor I hadn't considered, but mostly because our system is pretty quiet. The stack runs up through the deck behind the pilot house, and you can speak in a conservational tone no problem. Since we don't have a flying bridge, that isn't an issue, but I can see how it would be. Regarding impellors, I had two, but eliminated the pump for hydraulic cooling with a Grunfos electric pump that is silent and zero maintenance. Since the cooling for hydraulics is coolant through the old half pipe keep coolers, that works. The other is on the genset, which has wet exhaust and an air water separator and I'm probably stuck with that one since it is raw water. That plus the water maker are the only two used for raw water I have. Just two through hulls, one for supply and one for tank emptying.

Regarding keel coolers, the Walters I have require no grid cooling because that aren't a grid, just cupro nickel tubes, so no maintenance there. However, I do have the zincs on them changed every six months when I have the bottom whisked.

I think the most compelling argument against dry stack is the noise if you have a flying bridge. Otherwise, and depending on other implementation factors, dry exhaust is safer (no sea water) and easier to maintain. At least for me.

The need to clean the keel cooler I think is location dependent. I never had any trouble in the PNW. But in Mexico in warmer waters I found my engine temps rising in ways I had never seen before. Cleaning the keel cooler solved the problem.


There are so many variables. It's a hard problem to solve.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:00 PM   #40
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A while back we had a transient Nordhavn 86 moored directly in front of Blue Sky. After it left we had soot all over our foredeck as did another nearby vessel.
To eliminate soot on startup, I find it necessary to do what s/b done anyway with trawler engines running at very low power settings, and that is to heat the motor up by running it for 15 minutes or so at 70% power shortly before shutting out down after a run. If the engine is producing soot just sitting there idling, it has other issues that s/b addressed.
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