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Old 10-21-2009, 11:38 PM   #21
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Tugs versus Trawlers

Since many boat "types" are made up by marketing people to convey some sort of image that they think will make potential buyers think they are getting a boat with desireable qualities or characteristics that they probably aren't getting, the term "trawler" is totally meaningless unless you have a boat that drags nets across the bottom and catches stuff.* So "trawler," "europa", "sedan," "motoryacht," and "passagemaker" are meaningless in terms of actually defining anything real.* The terms have come to mean something, but only because the boat marketers have attached the names to a particular configuration for so long that they've become accepted definitions.

The terms "sundeck," "tug," "pilothouse," "lobsterboat" and maybe "sportfisherman" actually mean something that has nothing to do with the marketing people. Boats with these names actually ARE boats of this type.

So "trawler" can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Now catamaran means what it is. It's a catamaran. Is a catamaran a trawler? All depends on how you define "trawler." Some people define trawler as a way a particular boat is used, or it's operational characteristics. Longer distance cruising, seaworthy, slow, economical, etc. Nothing to do with the configuration of the boat.* So tugs, tri-cabins, sundecks, pilothouse--- they can all be trawlers if you like. * In that respect, I guess a catamaran could be considered a trawler, too, if it has these characteristics.

If you define a trawler as related to the configurations and characteristics of traditional fishing craft that bear that name, then I don't believe a catamaran can be a trawler, unless you have a catamaran that drags a net around and catches stuff.

A catamaran can have all sorts of positive characteristics as Carey described. But boats are like music--- how you feel about them is totally subjective.

So speaking strictly for myself--- and as a person who grew up in a place where catamarans were all over the place (Hawaii)--- I think they are the ugliest boats on the planet,* Even worse than trimarans. * I don't think catamarans have poor aesthetics, I don't think they have any aesthetics.

To me--- and this is totally subjective--- a big part of what I want out of boating is to be operating a boat that in its physical design captures what I feel boating is all about. So to me, it's about boats that actually did or do something other than just carting people around for recreation. So fishing boats, tugboats, patrol boats, military boats (back when they were designed with something other than a cost-reducing straight-edge), those are the designs I think of when I think of boating. So I want the boat I operate to have at least a degree of the design elements that are in the boats I respect.

So I don't care if a catamaran has tons of deck space, the potential for large cabins, stability (and in some conditions they are less stable than a monohull) and whatever other attributes they may have. For me, the bottom line is that they are butt-ugly and embody nothing that I value or admire in the way of boat design. I have never seen a catamaran--- power or sail--- that I thought was even remotely good looking.* So I am not in the "trawler cat" camp. To me, it's one or the other.

But I'm not going to argue with someone who feels exactly the opposite.

And a question for John B. Is a catamaran europa simply a variation of a monohull sedan?


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 22nd of October 2009 12:22:15 AM
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:28 PM   #22
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

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RT Firefly wrote:

Mr. 2bucks,
** I understand the regerence to Taiwan Tubs (which I personally find offensive) but have never heard the term chubbies.* If allowed, please explain.
Chubbies is a perversion of CHB brand boats, CHB's. Several people have commented on one of the CHB brand sites of their annoyance about being called chubbies.*Some are insensitive to the sensitivities of others and continue*to offend.
Very similar is the*posting of the same question across multiple boards, failure to follow board protocols, etc. The older I get the less I understand why people choose to offend. Especially as new members to any particular forum. I would think one would try to fit in, at least at first. But, I'm apparently wrong in that regard.

Ken


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Old 10-22-2009, 07:35 PM   #23
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As a note to our new guests, a Taiwan tub/ Chubbie has been associated in the past with a vessel of inferior quality. Chung Hwa is builder in Taiwan that has been building vessels for many years. There have been many times that the "inferior" quality of these vessels has been pointed out. I own a Chung Hwa boat as of almost 3 years ago. As best as I can figure, this is how these things work:
  1. An enterprising individual goes to Taiwan with a Builders Drawing and then contracts with a boat yard to build the vessel to his specifications. In our case, there was a gentleman by the name of Beryl Present who established Present Yachts, Inc.. The hull on our vessel is common to a lot of other vessels that are not Present Yachts, but they all have the same characteristics. Hand laid, very thick fiberglass in the same mold that had been used for a while.
  2. Said enterprising individual specifies what superstructure and layouts he wants. The *superstructure seems to vary from different offerings. Ours has a lot of headroom, others not so much.
  3. The service of an inspector is arranged, in our case Y.N. Fong, an associate of ABS Worldwide Technical Services, Inc., performed these inspections, then signed off at the completion of the build that all requirements were met.
  4. Common propulsion and control components were specified. Our vessel was available with 12 different engine choices. Ford-Lehman, Perkins, Volvo-Penta, Caterpillar, Cummings and G/M were offered in different horsepower ratings. Steering, electrical systems, etc. seemed to be sourced from the same products the US boating community was accustomed to.
  5. Electronics were probably installed to the customers order after the vessel arrived in the states. That is how North Pacific Yachts sets it up. *http://www.northpacificyachts.com/
  6. The boatyard (this is my favorite part) built what it was paid to build by said individual. Teak decks? No problem. Lots of fuel tankage? It's in there. You want teak hand rails and lots of teak trim? We can provide. I am pretty certain that these yards were building what they were asked to build. Were these ships all top quality? It doesn't seem so. Were these ships all cra()? I would say no. The interior detail (our vessel has a beautiful teak interior), welded and hand polished large stainless hand rails and general workmanship of many of these ships is amazing.
In conclusion, in my opinion, many of these wonderful vessels are undervalued and eventually will be recognized for the quality they represent. These vessels are getting older and a studied and committed captain should be able to properly maintain his ship for a very long time. The support resources are very available. This forum has tons of talent. I rest my case.
Steve
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:25 PM   #24
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As explained to me by shipwrights who have dealt with "Taiwan Trawlers" for many years the issue is not design or even components but inconsistency of build quality during the 70s and 80s. Whether these practices continue today is something I don't know.

A primary yard inTaiwan would be contracted with to build a particular kind of boat. The primary yard would lay up the hull using the molds they had built. They would proably also lay up the primary superstructure components. So far, so good.

But then, depending on the practices of the yard, the hulls and superstructure components would be contracted out to smaller, family-owned yards for completion into a finished boat. This is where the inconsistency came in. Different yards used different processes and materials. The classic example I heard a lot about was the materials used to stiffen the cabin sidewalls. Some yards would use marine ply. Others would cut up packing crates and pallets and use this. Packing crates and pallets in Asia tend to be made of very nice mahogany ply, but it's not marine grade so if it gets wet, say from a leaking window, it will succumb to moisture damage and rot faster than marine grade ply.

Years later when buyers would be looking for a boat and think a used CHB or whatever would fill the bill some would have a good experience and some would not. A lot depended on the previous owner(s). If they took care of the boat and fixed leaks and other problems as soon as they were spotted-- and fixed them properly--- the boat would probably be in good condition when it went onto the market. But if the boat was one built using less-than-ideal practices and materials AND the previous owners had done a less-than-stellar job of maintaining the boat, a new owner could find himself facing major and costly repair work.

All it takes is a few instances of a buyer having a really negative experience with a particular brand of boat and the brand's repuation is damaged. Not all Taiwan yards used this "sub it out" practice but a lot of them did.

So there is nothing inherently wrong with the boats that are lumped under the term "Taiwan Trawler." And any boat if neglected will deteriorate, be it a Marine Trader, Puget Trawler, CHB, Grand Banks, Fleming, or Nordhavn. But it's important that a buyer interested in some of the Taiwan-built brands understand the factors that could lead to one used CHB or whatever being an excellent buy and another boat of the same make and model being a potential money pit. A good reason to have a potential purchase checked out thoroughly by a competent surveyor who's very familiar with the brand you're interested in.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:14 AM   #25
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As Marin's, even some as old as 73 have survived to 2009. By 1980 the North American market was wise to the bad practices and they had mostly been stopped. As well, most of the bad practices that a few of those old boats suuffered have been fixed by now. I make the case that if it has survived to 2009, it must have been ok to start with or fixed by now.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:33 AM   #26
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Tugs versus Trawlers

I was told that the Taiwan made boats could not be put into charter service. If so. Why is that.
I was also told that a family actually would move onto the boats and finish the interior.* The reason some were so lavish and detailed
Old fish wife tales or fact?

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 23rd of October 2009 11:40:52 AM
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:12 PM   #27
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Mr. Dude,
*** Offshore built vessels cannot be put into commerce in the US.* I think it's called the Jones act.* I've heard the same thing about families moving on board but don't know if it's fact or fiction.*
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:35 PM   #28
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I think Catamarans should be looked at. Marin does make a point as far as aesthetics go. To me they are not ugly. But they are not pretty either....although some of the older Lagoon sailing cats had some nice lines.

With that said, my main issue with catamarans under 40ish feet is that the INSIDE space is too "compartmentalized"....much like a sailboat and one of the main reasons I got out of sailboats so early in my career. IOW, there is no real open space on the inside. You are crawling up and down steps and thru doors....and like you said, the staterooms on the PDQ 34 are almost an afterthought....very sailboat-like. Other than that, I am a huge fan of the PDQ34 and boats like it.

You also have to remember that Cats are very weight sensitive. The more weight you load it up with, the slower they go. IOW, PDQ may state that their boats can go 20kts.....if you load that puppy up to cruising weight a lot of your speed will disappear. I kknow a guy that has a Lagoon 43 Powercat that he cruised "daily" around 15-18kts. He loaded it up for a coastal cruising trip of a few weeks and all he could get was 10kts. He thought something was wrong with his boat.....Nothing was wrong with it.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:39 PM   #29
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Tugs versus Trawlers

Lots of Chinese and Taiwan made boats are in the charter fleets. So long as they are properly documented and satisfy state and federal regs*I can't see there is a problem. Lets face it, the better "brands" are heavily populated by the far east yards.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 23rd of October 2009 12:46:24 PM
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:55 PM   #30
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Tugs versus Trawlers

Mr. Sunchaser,
** You have a point...
**** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchan...ne_Act_of_1920
** A company chartering out a foreign vessel is not using the vessel to move goods, they are providing a service but if*they wanted to personally take somebody on a paid tour* they*would have to be*a licenced captain*and they would*HAVE to use an American vessel.
**

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:00:40 PM

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:06:31 PM

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:08:23 PM
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:21 PM   #31
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Tugs versus Trawlers

Are you referring to point of manufacture or flag? A ferry boat made in Europe can be documented in the US and work the Seattle to Friday harbor run.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:37:30 PM
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:57 PM   #32
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Hiya,
** It was my understanding that it was the point of manufacture but if european ferries are running in Seattle, obviosly I am wrong-sorry for the confusion.*
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:08 PM   #33
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I'm not aware of any European ferries operating in the Washington State ferry system. In fact at one point it was made a requirement that any ferries added to the system had to be built in this state. Recently there has been some consideration given to having some new ferries made by shipyards in the Gulf states for cost and schedule reasons. I do not know how this has been resolved.

You can operate a foreign-built vessel in a charter fleet. The charter fleets here are full of Grand Banks, CHBs, Krogens, European-built sailboats, etc.. I am pretty sure you can operate a foreign-built vessel for hire to carry passengers, too, at least up to a certain capacity. There are "six-pack" operators here using boats built in other countries.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:52 PM   #34
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Tugs versus Trawlers

Quote:
RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
** It was my understanding that it was the point of manufacture but if european ferries are running in Seattle, obviosly I am wrong-sorry for the confusion.*
Don't be so quick to apologize. There are no foreign built ferries in the WSF system. There may be soon though but it will be on a run to British*Columbia and will not carry passengers between American ports.

It is possible to use a foreign built small vessel for other than bare boat charter*in US waters. The link below explains the Jones Act Waiver Program.*

http://tiny.cc/2Q7XQ*

A few years ago WSF wanted to lease one of the foreign built Victoria Clipper high speed catamaran ferries to evaluate the wake issues in Rich Passage and it took an act of Congress to declare that transporting WSF employees on a "voyage to nowhere" and only boarding and disembarking them at the same place*did not contravene the Jones Act or the passenger vessel act. Also they used the "research vessel" card to ease the process since they could claim the use of the vessel was to research wave effects. All three Victoria Clipper boats are US flagged, but only the one US built boat can be used on the San Juan Islands run. The other two can only go to a foreign port (Victoria) from a US port (Seattle).

-- Edited by RickB on Friday 23rd of October 2009 06:06:02 PM
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:19 PM   #35
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Thanks*for clearing that up RIkcb. Please note I did not say WSF ferries were made outside the US. My "source" of information was indeed the operators of the Victoria Clipper run. Also, to keep the Sidney, Friday Harbor*to Anacortes run viable there are gyrations going on as to whose flag will fly and whose ships will be used. Now it is the WSF. The BC ferry system uses some non Canada build*for their vessels.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:41 PM   #36
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Thanks*for clearing that up RIkcb. Please note I did not say WSF ferries were made outside the US. My "source" of information was indeed the operators of the Victoria Clipper run. Also, to keep the Sidney, Friday Harbor*to Anacortes run viable there are gyrations going on as to whose flag will fly and whose ships will be used. Now it is the WSF. The BC ferry system uses some non Canada build*for their vessels.
If they want to run the Sidney ferry via Friday Harbor they will have to do it on an American bottom with American crew and fly an American flag. The Victoria Clipper folks will make sure there are no waivers unless they get one too and that just ain't gonna happen.

My understanding was that the State authorised the purchase of a foreign built ferry for the Sidney run. That ship*could be US flagged but it can't be used in US coastal trade - Jones Act trade as it is called. Depending on which politicritters got bought, WSF might have to promise to build a replacement vessel in a US yard within a certain time. The Alaska Marine Highway got a Swedish built ship that way when they started the Bellingham run.

Canada doesn't have the same maritime laws as we do*so they can buy ships from*anywhere*they want, so what they do is not really relevant to us. If BC ferries wanted to run Sidney to*Anacortes they could but they couldn't*pickup passengers in Friday Harbor and take them to Anacortes. And they couldn't*drop off*Anacortes boarded passengers in Friday Harbor on the way to Sidney. *
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:04 PM   #37
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Quote:
Mike wrote:
Are these companies breaking the law?

No, they are not, because they are not transporting passengers between 2 American ports. Passengers who board at Port Canaveral, disembark at Port Canaveral.
Only by the slipperiest of a very liberal interpretation of the law that was very well greased by crossing the palms of the right people by the CLIA folks ...

The interpreatation says that the* cruise ships can make as many "intermediary" stops as they like as long as one of the stops on the intinerary is a foreign port and passengers are*required to return to the ship to continue the cruise. In other words, they can get off along the way but they can't stay. Except ... you knew there had to be an exception for the amount of money that interpretation cost ... *and that exception is used to allow passengers to leave the Alaska cruise ships in Alaska and return by other means.

All in all the cruise industry has been a large consumer of what the Popes of old used to call "indulgences."**

*
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:37 PM   #38
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Or a similar event- this past spring my sister and her husband caught the Cunard line's Queen in LA, berthed in Hawaii, picked up more passengers*and then onto 4non US*stops before getting off in Sidney and flying back to the US. Lots of "exceptions."
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:48 PM   #39
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I participate in a lot of different forums of different interests. I am not sure any of them get off topic like y'all do!!!!....
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:18 AM   #40
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RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

A hat-tip to everyone --we've learned a lot from your comments.
Thank you,
Bill
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