Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-26-2015, 11:54 AM   #1
Member
 
City: Los Angeles
Country: US
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Market value for Krogen Manatee

Hello all...new forum member and potential Manatee owner. Trying to get a realistic opinion on what a boat in our harbor (Los Angeles) might be worth. There are alot of unknowns that only a full survey might disclose its needs.

Here's what I do know. The boat made a 1000 mile trip to where it was moored in 2009. There has been no maintainance since then and the owner has not been on the boat since then....left as tied up six years ago. The teak and decks are green with alge and bird dressing, batteries long dead, no prep for fuel/water tanks (etc), pilot house canvas shredded/blown off and middle plexi window blown off the hinges (all electronics exposed to weather), railings appear fine except cables showing rust, inflatable and dingy are rough, there is an autopilot, all steel hardware (manual winches, etc) heavy rust, interior appears to be fine but showing its age, hot water-heating-plumbing-electrical systems unknowns from sitting, has not been hauled out since pre 2009 but hull has been cleaned on a regular basis, no signs of hull damage, the owner has indicated the orig generator is smoking but the Volvo (100hp) is fine (hours unknown). The above water fiberglass looks chalky but ok...some of the non skid decking looks like was sloppily recoated. From what I can see the bilge is mostly dry and I dont think the pump is operational in any event. There is a AB inflatable that is UV scorched with a Honda outboard. Think of this as a ghost boat with full effects.

Its a two stateroom model (1988) and not located in a boating area for which the design was intended (not open ocean cruising). This is an expensive area to get work done and I am guessing it will need at least $20K to get it back to reasonable condition. I dont know if the owner is willing to have it surveyed as the boat appears to be just a forgotten detail that he doesnt have time or interest in. That being said, he probably paid $90K or so for it in 2009 and knows boats and ballpark values for Manatees.

I looked him up and he's will to sell it at a "deal" but given everything whats the bottom trading number for a Manatee in this condition without getting buried??? Big question I know but I need some of your opinions to start.

Thanks in advance!
__________________
Advertisement

Pfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 12:41 PM   #2
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
The lowest number I know of for a Manatee sold here in the east was 80K, and the engine was quite worn, leaks everywhere, no mast, bottom wet. Given your description and the boat's location (west coast), you ought to be able to get it for less than that, but since a bottom peel and glass job for that boat could be an easy 25K, Remember, we're talking about a fully-cored hull. I wouldn't touch it unless I knew the condition of that bottom.

Thanks to having a somewhat "cult" status, according to Krogen Brokerage, up to 2007, the best Manatees were bringing 175 to 200K. At the downturn, the worst conditioned boats came out of the woodwork and prices depressed. Now, the best ones are bringing 150 plus and are frequently traded among Krogen groupies without being advertised for sale. The boat you describe needs a lot of work, but 20K won't do it. If you have to buy without a survey (I wouldn't), you'll need to add another 30 to that 20, and figure that the boat value on the west coast is unlikely to exceed 140K right now . Sorry, but that's the way it is. It's a great boat, but don't start out with a negative. Of course, this is just my opinion.
__________________

__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 01:05 PM   #3
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,882
Well it seems that there are two parts to answering the question of what that boat is worth.

The first part is what would a boat in reasonable shape sell for. Soldboats, the broker's version of Yachtworld shows 5 Manatees sold in 2014-2015 for a low of $92K and a high of $161K with three in the $110-120K range. So figure $115K average.

The second question is how much will it cost to bring it up to "reasonable shape". That is an impossible question to answer without looking at the whole boat both cosmetically and functionally. My guess is as good as yours- $20K.

That means it could be worth the $115K average above less $20K or $95K.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 02:18 PM   #4
Member
 
City: Los Angeles
Country: US
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Thanks Healhustler and djmarchand. Great starting info. I haven't owned a boat for quite awhile and not as big as a Manatee in any event. One of the other partners has though but he does not have extensive refurbishment experience.

My guess on costs is very rough but as a guess - basics and cosmetics (haul out, bottom paint, cleaning/waxing/ full canvases, window repairs, teak replacement/refinish, new railing lines, winches, etc would be about $12-$15k, basic electronics $5K, new/rebuilt genset installed would b $3-4K, engine service/tanks flushed, and other plumbing/pumps/electrical $5K. So without any big surprises (hull or otherwise) about $25-30K.

How much of a negative (value deduct) is the twin berth layout...from what I have read the single is in much higher demand??

Also what are typical brokerage charges these days....if the average recent sale is about $115K is a 10% deduct for fees about right??

I am trying to come up with a defensible offer that is fair to both of us based on what i know (with your help!) with a little leeway for the unknowns. If we get that far, a survey is going to be done.

I hope this is the beginning of a long story.....
Pfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 03:38 PM   #5
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,882
I think your genset number is way low. A new Westerbeke or similar will cost upwards of $10,000 and another couple of thousand to install. But it isn't reasonable to figure a new anything when you are comparing to other boats where the equipment will be old. I usually figure half of new.

I agree that the Yachtworld soldboat prices are via a yacht broker and a private party sale with no broker should be lower. It is like the value of cars. There are three prices: dealer trade in (lowest), private party sale (middle) and dealer sale (20-30% more than trade in).

In this case you are taking a big risk on bringing the boat up to "reasonable shape". Also the market for fixer uppers is much more limited than one in "reasonable shape".

I would make an offer 10-15% lower than what you think it is worth to you and negotiate from there.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 04:02 PM   #6
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
You have to REALLY want THAT Manatee to take this big of a risk. Having not seen the boat and going from your description your estimates seem optimistic. You might be better off driving to Vegas and putting $80K on red and calling it a day. My 2 cents and worth half that. Good luck and welcome.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 04:38 PM   #7
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,820
If the average boat clears after broker fees $100k, I would offer $60k on condition of a hull survey. If the bottom needs to be redone or worse, you probably don't want the boat. Justification: He nets $60k without lifting a finger. You will handle everything from the survey to throwing his junk in the dumpster. You get a boat that you can invest up to $60K in and have an average or better boat the way you want it. The owner can always counter your offer.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 05:01 PM   #8
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
True, sometimes the two stateroom model can be a negative, but at least with the two stateroom owners I know (three), it is very much a positive. That arrangement was the original design, according to Krogen, and the single stateroom was offered as an option, which the great majority preferred. Probably the best conditioned of all Manatees was sold several years ago by Jim Krogen, Jr., who made the boat new. It was also a two stateroom model, and a spectacular vessel.

Concerning the boat in question, I wouldn't think that the two stateroom feature would be a negative, particularly if you like it. After reconditioning, I dunno, maybe a 10K difference, but surely not to someone looking for two staterooms. If I were single or cruised with company aboard often, I'd prefer it. Best of luck.
__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 05:42 PM   #9
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Greetings,
Mr. Pf. Welcome aboard. You mention "one of the other partners". Co-ownership? Hmmm.....could be the end of a friendship/partnership real fast with you left holding the bag at worst or 2 people with MUCH lighter wallets with at best. I now nothing about Krogens other than they have a good reputation but from what you describe, could be a bottomless pit with little to show at the end of the exercise. Are you sure it's floating and not sitting on the bottom?
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 05:44 PM   #10
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,175
Would you be doing the work on it or having it done? That makes a huge difference in cost, but then if you're doing it yourself, you should value your time and the wait for use.

Ok, here's my number on it...

Value of boat in average condition $100,000

Plumbing including hot water, line cleaning, tank cleaning $3,000

Fuel tank cleaning/polishing, filters, etc. $4,000

Engine servicing, minimum $2,000

Haul out, bottom paint, decks, teak repair/replacement, window repairs, etc. $20,000

Canvas $3,000

Genset installed $10,000

Replacing all rusted items including winches, rails, etc. $3,000

Electronics. Replacing with current models $7,000

Batteries $1,000

Depreciation on interior $2,000

Replace the tender and perhaps the outboard as well or at least service the outboard $5,000.

I see it in current condition as a $40,000 - 50,000 boat. You're only seeing the surface and I suspect when hauled and surveyed, when the engine is surveyed, there are far more issues hidden. It's basically an abandoned boat in many respects.

Now, here's another issue. You probably can't even sea trial it without some work being done on it. I wouldn't want to start the engine not knowing the condition of the fuel or more. All impellers would need replacing first. So someone likely has to spend money prior to a complete sea trial and survey being done. Owner indicating the Volvo is fine? How can he possibly indicate that if it's not been run in 6 years?
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 06:35 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
ktdtx's Avatar
 
City: Galveston, Texas
Country: U.S.A.
Vessel Name: Howdy
Vessel Model: 52' North Pacific
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 417
Just guessing but, from your description, I think $20k is way low to bring that boat into good shape.

Also-"planning" or "hoping" for no surprises on a boat that hasn't moved in 6 years is, IMO-a bad idea.
ktdtx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 08:29 PM   #12
Member
 
City: Los Angeles
Country: US
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Manatee bite

Thanks everyone. All your input has been appreciated. Your words of caution are well taken and I have no expectation of smooth sailing with this lunacy. I also found out today that the engine top end is probably rusty and oil passages/ bearings will get fouled unless the head is removed. The expenses are not the problem but finding the entry price that makes sense is the challenge. The Manatee would be used on its mooring more for overniters by a few retired families than cruising so my partners are not critical. I now have an offering price in mind so again thanks for your help. I'll post the outcome when it's over.
Pfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 09:48 PM   #13
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
Run, don't look around, just keep running!
__________________
Tracy & Susie Hellman 1985 Ta Chiao CT 35
Twin Lehman Super 90's Westerbeke 4.4kw
Lightkeepers Marina -Little River, SC
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 09:52 PM   #14
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill29130 View Post
Run, don't look around, just keep running!
Drop my $40,000 - $50,000 appraisal to $30,000 - $40,000 with the new revelation and I'm with windmill. I wouldn't buy that boat for more than $10,000-$20,000 personally and then it would be to try to fix it and resell it.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 10:52 PM   #15
Guru
 
hmason's Avatar
 
City: Westport, CT
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Magic
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 46 Europa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,904
You are considering the purchase of a financial disaster. For what it will cost in the end, buy a boat in good and serviceable condition. Have you considered how much time it will take to fix that boat? Don't walk, run man run.
__________________
Howard
Magic, 1996 Grand Banks Europa
Westport, CT and Stuart, FL
hmason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2015, 11:20 PM   #16
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfan View Post
The expenses are not the problem but finding the entry price that makes sense is the challenge.

On a boat like this the expenses ARE the problem and your last post just potentially added 20% of boats repaired value in additional expenses.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 10:04 AM   #17
Guru
 
windmill29130's Avatar
 
City: Little River SC
Vessel Name: JAZ
Vessel Model: Ta Chaio/CT35
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 716
A cored hull boat that has been sitting in water for the last 6 years with no maintenance & haul outs, don't run, catch the first plane out of there!
__________________
Tracy & Susie Hellman 1985 Ta Chiao CT 35
Twin Lehman Super 90's Westerbeke 4.4kw
Lightkeepers Marina -Little River, SC
windmill29130 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 10:51 AM   #18
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,882
What all of the naysayers say is perhaps true. The boat may need an engine overhaul or repower, a new generator, most systems replaced, interior cosmetics redone, etc.

If this were an older Marine Trader, Mainship 34, etc I would totally agree. It just isn't worth the risk and aggravation. Once you have put $30-40,000 into it you still have a $40,000 boat.

But this is a cult boat and there are only a few on the market unlike the above and they are priced three times higher. If the OP is willing to do most of the grunt work himself and only hire the engine/genset/electronics work, then it might be an interesting project.

Only he can decide what it is worth to him.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 11:23 AM   #19
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,721
I have lots of respect for the Manatee .. a truly amazing boat. Amazing in that they are boaty boats from the drawing board of a really gifted designer.

But they are really wide and have a fairly flat bottom. Enough rocker to be quite efficient .. can't remember if the're FD. Regarding seaworthyness they probably make a good showing but re comfort in open water is IMO at least somewhat questionable. Larry has experience w the Man and I'd like his input. This element of this design should probably be looked at as LA is nothing but open water. I'm thinking a KK 42 would be a better choice for those waters.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 11:26 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
I would rather want a boat than own a Manatee. They are coyote ugly.
__________________

obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012