KK Justification of High Price

[lipets]

Geez guys

KK sells boats for what the market is willing to pay.

It’s really that simple.

Overpriced??? Well if they were overpriced they wouldn’t sell many.

Now... Are there other brand new boats out there that will fulfill the same mission for less $$$ Maybe, but to say a KK new or used is overpriced is just plain silly..

Not really they only need a few buyers (10-12 a year) that buy into hype.


Like a contractor bidding a job some just bid high all the time so they can work less and make a score on each job


PS: Since 1991, the company's boats have been built at a dedicated yard in Kaohsiung, Taiwan


Different strokes for different folks

 

[dhays]

I have to respectfully disagree with Sunchaser re the effectiveness of stabilizers in a following sea, unless each wave is perfectly and directly from astern. I have never seen that. So in essentially all "following seas" we have found the stabilizers to be hugely effective.

I think there is some confusion here. Dirtdoc is looking to put active stabilization in a semi-displacement hull. Your boat has a full displacement hull with an entirely different stern shape. Sunchaser was questioning if adding the active stabilization in the NP45 would make much difference in performance in a following sea.

My guess (and that is all it is) is that active stabilization on a semi-displacement hull form such as the NP45 would not make a big difference in the behavior that concerns Dirtdoc.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Where did you learn that KK’s are built in the US?? I’m afraid you may get a failing grade on your homework.

Story of my life.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I think there is some confusion here. Dirtdoc is looking to put active stabilization in a semi-displacement hull. Your boat has a full displacement hull with an entirely different stern shape. Sunchaser was questioning if adding the active stabilization in the NP45 would make much difference in performance in a following sea.

My guess (and that is all it is) is that active stabilization on a semi-displacement hull form such as the NP45 would not make a big difference in the behavior that concerns Dirtdoc.

It's only going to cost me about $50k to find out.

Actually, I watched a demo that Trevor posted. It's been a while but I believe it was his fathers NP49 that had stabilizers and it obviously made enough of a difference. Are you guessing or do you have actual data?

I'll definitely look in to it a bit more though.

Thanks

 

[koliver]

Decades ago, as you probably are well aware. Possibly around the same time you gave up any pretense of being a serious poster and started trolling.

Good that e have an "ignore" list

 

[healhustler]

As far as price justification for the KK brand, the subject never came up with my Admiral and I. We were simply looking for an economical coastal cruiser with an emphasis on comfort, separate spaces by which to enjoy the water, simple (accessible) systems and forgiving to modifications. The only thing close was the newer Great Harbour GH-37 and N-37’s which were triple the price at the time. No brainer.

 

[dhays]

It's only going to cost me about $50k to find out.

Actually, I watched a demo that Trevor posted. It's been a while but I believe it was his fathers NP49 that had stabilizers and it obviously made enough of a difference. Are you guessing or do you have actual data?

I'll definitely look in to it a bit more though.

Thanks

Only guessing. I think it would make a big difference for the roll from a beam sea or wakes. I’m not sure it would help a lot with a large following sea.

However, I am thinking about the type of wave action we get around here, wind against current. This tends to be short and steep as you know. Quartering from the stern it tend to shove the stern around. Higher RPM helps as it makes the rudder more effective. I’ve found throttling up makes a big difference.

However, I AM just guessing. I would actually like a Seakeeper system on my boat for those times when faced with the short period waves on the beam. So when you do it, let us know how much of a difference it makes.

 

[Selidster]

Ok prices

I've been thinking about this topic since the original post. For me the price premium is simply because the market for the boats supports it. People pay more for things they believe offer them some sort of higher value. Lots of people believe KK boats are overpriced, so be it. Lots of products and brands command higher prices. As an example, a Cummins powered pickup costs a lot more to buy and operate than a non Cummins powered pickup. But when the truck is resold the premium is still there for the next buyer. Volkswagen vanagon westphalia campers are very expensive for their age and quality but people want them and the prices support it.

I bought an old KK42 and absolutely paid more than a ton of comparable boats. But everything about it feels right to me. I could have spent double on another boat and I wouldn't be as happy as I am with the one I have. Like a life partner. When it feels right its right.

Does the KK your looking at feel right? Or does another boat? That's a question only you can answer. If you always feel you paid too much for your boat, that's not a good feeling.

 

[dhays]

I've been thinking about this topic since the original post. For me the price premium is simply because the market for the boats supports it. People pay more for things they believe offer them some sort of higher value.

I think this is basically the answer. If buyers are willing to pay the price, then something isn’t overpriced.

 

[catalinajack]

At what point did KK abandon those PVC cores in the hull that become water saturated and who some owners have deskinned entire hulls at great expense to fix???

A long time ago, pal, and my guess is that most of them are still in the water. In fact, KK42 Hull No. 2 is berthed just across the fairway from our boat as I write this.

 

[Selidster]

Kk prices

Mine is hull #16. 1980. She's not perfect, but perfect for me. Overall very good condition.

 

[Bud]

The KK are well built. I personally would not own a 42 prior to 1995 because the Krogen 42 was built with cored hull sides until 1995, when the builder switched to solid fiberglass. Closed cell PVC sandwich core is used for hull decks and topside — although until 1985, the 42 was built with fiberglass-over-plywood decks

 

[BandB]

I bought an old KK42 and absolutely paid more than a ton of comparable boats. But everything about it feels right to me. .

That's because the other boats were not comparable. Perhaps same size, similar layout, but that doesn't make them comparable and that's why the KK is more.

 

[jimdavi]

NP 49 in following seas video.

https://youtu.be/CBCeDi_selI

 

[dirtdoc1]

Only guessing. I think it would make a big difference for the roll from a beam sea or wakes. I’m not sure it would help a lot with a large following sea.

However, I am thinking about the type of wave action we get around here, wind against current. This tends to be short and steep as you know. Quartering from the stern it tend to shove the stern around. Higher RPM helps as it makes the rudder more effective. I’ve found throttling up makes a big difference.

However, I AM just guessing. I would actually like a Seakeeper system on my boat for those times when faced with the short period waves on the beam. So when you do it, let us know how much of a difference it makes.

Dhays and Sunchaser,

Below are a couple of videos of a NP49 with active stabilizers in beam and following seas. It's really hard to tell how big the seas are and how effective the stabilizers are but here ya go for what it's worth.

 

[jimdavi]

I’m going to call Trevor and see if he has anything. I’ll also ask my delivery captain to take some video when he leaves Seattle for San Francisco ~Oct 7th. My boat does not have stabilization. Considering Seakeeper.

Thinking...if you try and go at following seas at a 45 angle, and have stabilization/seakeeper to keep the boat level, wouldn’t this help? I also sent an email to Seakeeper sales support.

 

[dhays]

Dhays and Sunchaser,

Below are a couple of videos of a NP49 with active stabilizers in beam and following seas. It's really hard to tell how big the seas are and how effective the stabilizers are but here ya go for what it's worth.

Do you know what type of stabilizers were installed? Fin or gyro?


I think the best indication of how well they worked was the response Trevor got from his crew when he mentioned that he should turn them off for comparison right at the end of the video.

 

[sunchaser]

NP 49 in following seas video.

https://youtu.be/CBCeDi_selI

JD
That seems a pretty mild following sea with my guess of winds below 15 knots or so. 4 to 6 footers with 20 knots of wind and frequent breaking seas would be interesting to see on the same vessel. Like the kind you'll normally find going south to San Francisco.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Do you know what type of stabilizers were installed? Fin or gyro?


I think the best indication of how well they worked was the response Trevor got from his crew when he mentioned that he should turn them off for comparison right at the end of the video.

Right!? :lol::lol:

By the way - thanks for finding that second video Jim. Trevor told me about it but for some reason it wouldn't come up in my search. I found the first one.

Video doesn't show waves very well unless they're huge. Check out Wavemaster1 on youtube. Those guys are actually bored in 60 footers!!

 

[Mikala]

I remember way back when this thread was about KK’s.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I remember way back when this thread was about KK’s.

What's a KK?

Oops, sorry. Well, let's see if we can steer it back in that direction.

The reason that I started the thread was because my boat does so poorly in following seas. I looked at the KK wineglass transom and thought that it would behave much better in following seas. Then I wondered if the additional cost of KK's was worth it. So I started the thread based on those reasons. Yes, my brain actually works that way.

So how does the KK do in following seas? Is it still squirrely like other trawlers just less so? Or does it surf like a pro?

 

[DDW]

A thing is worth what someone will pay for it - neither more nor less.

Adding the next 10% in quality to a boat doesn't cost 10% more, but perhaps 20-30% more. If you are already in the top quality end of boats, the next 10% can cost 100% more.

KK (nor any of the other higher end production builders) aren't making a large fortune building these. Staying alive might be a better way to describe it.

 

[jimdavi]

I talked to Trevor this eve.
NP hulls are very similar to most other semi-displacement hulls on the market (for that matter most boats) and will perform in a similar way. In a following sea they take more work than in other sea conditions. He said that in a light to moderate following sea, the auto pilot does a better job than he does. In a heavier following sea, He prefers to steer. Again, it takes some steering but is no different than any other semi displacement he’s been on in these conditions.

The seas in Thailand that you see in the video were big in his opinion. He hesitated to give a number because it could be overestimated, but in the first video, you can see wave break on the bow. The fin stabilizers helped in all sea conditions that day from beam to quartering stern to following sea.

 

[jimdavi]

Attached are the pictures he sent of the un-stabilized NP43 off the coast of CA. These are far more severe conditions than would be encountered in the Salish Sea areas said.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Attached are the pictures he sent of the un-stabilized NP43 off the coast of CA. These are far more severe conditions than would be encountered in the Salish Sea areas said.

Looks like home sweet home off the coast of CA. Hell, I've seen the bay like that! That NP42 or 43 looks pretty level in that potato patch.

I'm hoping to hear from some more KK owners about how their boats perform in following seas. I'm impressed with the NP in all other sea states. Especially with the bilge keels (Rolling Chocks). There's not a mush rolling with the 18" wide BKs that are on my boat. I have a feeling that the wine glass transom on the KKs handle FS in a much more dignified manner than the flat transom on our boats.

 

[Simi 60]

.

We live aboard full time. A standard KK 48 has 400 gallon water capacity, full-sized refrigerator, 1275 amp hour house battery bank, full sized GE washer, GE dryer, 265 amp alternator, isolation transformer, copper water piping and on and on. The boat is seaworthy and efficient. All of this is the difference in comfortable cruising and camping out.

So pricey? I see it as value.

I see it as value as well but for us we got that value and more for less than a tenth of the price.
There needs to be a lot more to the price than that alone.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I see it as value as well but for us we got that value and more for less than a tenth of the price.
There needs to be a lot more to the price than that alone.

Your trawler is wood and the KK is FG so I don't see how you can compare the two boats in any way. Being wood it was probably made in the 70s so of course it's going to be a fraction of the price. From the feedback and reputation of the KKs I don't think there is any question as to the value of the brand. I stood next to a KK 54 and it was massive!

I'm sold.

 

[Simi 60]

Your trawler is wood and the KK is FG so I don't see how you can compare the two boats in any way.
.

The op was talking about interior niceties, not hull construction

Being wood it was probably made in the 70s so of course it's going to be a fraction of the price.

The hull , prop, shaft and rudder was made in the late 70's
Every other part was done in 2000's, as was the considerably smaller kk I was comparing to.

And for what its worth, timber vessels are still being made today in many parts of the planet.

I stood next to a KK 54 and it was massive!

I can guarantee that we ours is bigger, if its a measuring contest

I'm sold

Good oh,
Cut a cheque and have at it then

 

[dirtdoc1]

The op was talking about interior niceties, not hull construction




The hull , prop, shaft and rudder was made in the late 70's
Every other part was done in 2000's, as was the considerably smaller kk I was comparing to.

And for what its worth, timber vessels are still being made today in many parts of the planet.


I can guarantee that we ours is bigger, if its a measuring contest



Good oh,
Cut a cheque and have at it then

I am the OP. I was talking about all the above. I still think they are pricey but without looking at their Profit and Loss report there is no way to know if it's due to the name or added value, not perceived value. How do you put a price on sea worthiness, strength, top of the line equipment and comfort? KK seems to have all the above from what I can tell.

By the way I like your boat. She's beautiful.

Cheers!

 

[sunchaser]

Possibly overlooked in this discussion are two things. First the experience of the crew and second one's tolerance for snotty sea conditions. A trip to the marinas at Homer or Seward AK will find all manners of pleasure craft that have safely traversed the journey from the lower 48. With non KKs representing probably 95%+ of the recreational fleet.

Dirt Doc, maybe during a trip to sea on a KK you will find they rock and roll far more than you would have guessed but the crew is amiably chatting about football and interstellar travel. On our vessel we care less about sea conditions and more about visibility, rocks, debris and maintenance. I know of several KKs that did not fare well when they went aground. At the end of the day, crew decisions, not brand, tend to dominate IMHO.