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Old 12-09-2016, 11:58 AM   #21
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Taiwan is in China!
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:24 PM   #22
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I believe Nordhavn's are built in China and Taiwan.
I think from 1999 to 2004 the Nordhavn 40s were built by Pacific Seacraft in California. The first 39 hulls.
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Old 12-09-2016, 08:06 PM   #23
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Taiwan is in China!
Taiwan claims they are separate from China.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:33 PM   #24
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Re Nordhavns, depending on the model, they are built by one of two yards; South Coast or Ta Shing. Both yards started in Taiwan, but in the early/mid 2000s South Coast moved to Xiamen, China. Ta Shing currently builds the 64/68, 72/76, and the 56 Motor sailor. All other models are built by South Coast.

And yes, the initial N40s were built by Pacific Seacraft, but I don't know how many or for how long.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:20 PM   #25
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Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a state in East Asia. Neighbors include the People's Republic of China (PRC, commonly known as "China")....
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:44 AM   #26
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All fun to pay, think about your rather an investment in your family's well-being was like mourn in advance of things such as the resale ever.

in fact, I at least can not be sure where I live, so I do not want to sit on a bag of money on top of the head and mourn the lost of their own, the way was nice, and it can not but be measured in monetary terms.

Nordic Tug has no stable investment in Europe such as the US, I am still happier than I would have bought something productive investment money (I'm not rich) maby I am wrong, here's one perspective on the topic.
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:48 PM   #27
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Krogen Wannabe Question

Considering a KK 42 purchase and I apolgize for the uneducated nature of this question but... Is a 42 Krogen, with a draft of 4' 7", able to navigate the ICW and the loop? I realize tides always come into the picture, but is it even a consideration to do the ditch end to end and the loop in a 42?

Thanks for any guidance on this.
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Old 12-22-2016, 04:14 PM   #28
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There are scores of KK42's that do the entire ICW every season. There is no problem in shore or offshore. It's a wonderful boat for that.

Many KK42's have also done the Great Loop. There would be zero issues. It might need the mast and/or bimini lowered to make certain sections but that would be easy to do too.

If you're concerned about draft, don't be. Our previous boat was a 53' DeFever with 6' draft. We had no problem doing the Great Loop and have done the ICW more than 20 times on her.

My suggestion would be to hold off on doing the Great Loop for a while though. That's not because it would be difficult to do for the boat but rather because I thought it was the most boring thing we've done in 14 years of cruising. There's so many more interesting and fun things to do. Get more experience and then decide if you really want to take the 1-2 years necessary to do the loop.
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Old 12-22-2016, 05:19 PM   #29
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Thanks Jeff!
The loop is down the road for us, if we even take that fork. Our initial (general) plan is to get acclimated / comfy with whatever boat we finally take the plunge on, by continuing our local cruising during summers here in New Joisey (yes, that is a proper alternate spelling). And then reaching out to the south via ICW & offshore to fla-la-la, followed by Bahamas & Caribbean. It's a dream, but gotta start somewhere.

BTW... Your new digs have some real karisma .
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:41 PM   #30
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The Great Loop and the Canadian canals can be done in a Krogen 42. Couple of warnings: The western Erie canal is a close fit on the airdraft. Needed to move the dinghy off the center line when we dropped the mast to fit under a couple of the bridges.

Several of the Canadian canals are shallow at the shelf going into a couple of locks. We touched. Usually the lockkeepers from Parks Canada will flood the lock to overflowing to allow a Krogen 42 to lock through. Yes the lockkeepers talk to each other so as we approached each lock they were ready for us. These guys are wonderful by the way.

We were not comfortable with the small ship channel in Georgian Bay, too many turns, rocks and narrow channels for my blood.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:42 PM   #31
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My suggestion would be to hold off on doing the Great Loop for a while though. That's not because it would be difficult to do for the boat but rather because I thought it was the most boring thing we've done in 14 years of cruising. There's so many more interesting and fun things to do. Get more experience and then decide if you really want to take the 1-2 years necessary to do the loop.
You're killin me!
Was it really that boring?
Could you elaborate on why you found it boring. Really curious to hear a different perspective.
I've read a few books and blogs, in addition to watching a bunch of YouTube videos on the Loop and it seems it would be awesome.
My wife and I dream of pulling our young kids out of school for a year and doing the loop.
Thanks!
And merry Christmas!
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:16 AM   #32
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Wifey B: I found nothing about the loop boring. Maybe because I was with very non-boring people. If all you do is ride along in the boat, I could see that, but so much to see and explore, so many places I'd never been, so many new experiences. If you're really thinking loop, talk to some members of the Great Loop Cruisers Association Home - America's Great Loop Cruisers' Association . Now, in fairness, they're going to give you all positive. I'm sure there are others who don't enjoy it, but I sure haven't seen them. Also, some great books written by parents who did it with their kids for the education of a lifetime.

The history to be touched and learned is so magnificent. The different cultures and environments. Everyone has their favorites but we liked it all. Some find the Erie and Oswego the best. Others just love the Canadian portions. Others, the Great Lakes. The one area that perhaps has less to offer is down the Illinois and Mississippi, but St. Louis is a great escape along the way. Then once you get to the Ohio, just a slight way to the TN River and an entire additional world to explore. We will definitely do it again, more than one more time. Far more than can be seen in one trip. Most people don't see but a small percentage, may not make it to the Georgian Bay or to Lake Superior, or across Lake Ontario to Toronto and Hamilton, or to the St. Lawrence.

I love seeing all parts of the country and saw so much I found wonderful on the loop.
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Old 12-24-2016, 07:49 AM   #33
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Was it really that boring?
Could you elaborate on why you found it boring. Really curious to hear a different perspective.
It costs $30,000 or more to do the loop between fuel, marinas, maintenance, food, etc. At that price, a lot of people who did it aren't going to admit that it was anything but the most wonderful experience they've ever had. By far, the typical boater that we saw doing the loop had this experience:

- Retired in the beginning of the year
- Bought a boat in the spring
- Took off on the loop in June
- Listened to Curtis Stokes presentation at the AGLCA rendezvous in October about selling your boat (how many rendezvous have a featured presentation about that at their rendezvous?)
- Sale signs go up on the boat windows by the time they're in Mississippi
- The loop gets completed and they sell the boat

Curtis Stokes is a genius. The same boats get sold over and over - they even sell easier by being a "it completed the loop X times" boat.

If many of those boaters had done something more relaxing and had learned their boat a little more, they'd still be boating...probably in much nicer places.

So why it's boring...

There are parts of it that are wonderful. And my experiences are mine put through the prism of cruising in other areas for 13+ years, mostly full-time or fully-full-time. Specifically:

- The east coast and Chesapeake are wonderful cruising areas and although they are part of the loop, they are the areas that I think are much more enjoyable making up large areas where you can take time and fully explore areas.

- The Hudson River is wonderful - we'll do that again. You don't need to do the loop to cruise that area - there are multiple summer loops you can make between Lake Champlain, the Erie Canal, and back to nicer places south for the winter.

- The Erie Canal is fantastic although I think the western half is much nicer and generally off the loop circuit since 90%+ of loopers go up the Oswego Canal and miss the western Erie. The problem is time - you have to keep moving.

- Georgian Bay and the North Channel are marvelous. Their main problem is that you pretty much have to make the decision to complete the loop if you spend any time there.

(this is where it gets boring)

- The entire state of Michigan is like that Christmas movie where the same 24 hours happen over and over. From a lawsuit settlement over fuel, every marina is regulated. They're all the same. We lost track of where we were a few times - the way you know which town you're in happens by looking at the names on the tee shirts in the shops. Every town has them with the exact same tee shirts - just the town name is changed. There are some exceptions like Mackinac and Charlevoix but they are rare. And really, there's no time to stay a week or more to explore - you've got too many miles ahead of you and some specific dates to meet. Perhaps our mistake was staying in Michigan. I've heard that crossing the lake to Wisconsin is more enjoyable. Again though, time is short and you have to keep moving.

- The major rivers - Illinois, Mississippi, Ohio - are very, very commercial with many tugs and barges. You haven't seen barges until you've been on those rivers. It's common to see a tug and barge on the Chesapeake Bay. On the Mississippi, there'll be a tug pushing 5 barges across and 6 barges long (we saw that a few times). This while moving in your direction in 3 knots of current but going slower so you'll have to pass them. These rivers are, by far, the most dangerous cruising we saw through our 14 years. I believe this section just prior to the AGLCA rendezvous is what causes many loopers to realize this isn't for them and perhaps they should sell their boat.

- Because of the distances between facilities on the Mississippi, you are pretty-much forced to anchor off the river itself. This is a pretty dangerous and scary thing surrounded by many hours of tedious, boring, commercial river views. St Louis is a great stop although you really need to get there by rental car from Alton, etc because there aren't facilities to stop there. Otherwise, there are many hundreds of miles of boring, gray, commercial riverfront, punctuated by passing huge commercial vessels on winding rivers in more current than most people have ever traveled.

- Through the river travel, you'll be subjected to many locks. I found them interesting and fun. The difficult parts to them are the other inexperienced boaters who end up in your lockings. The maneuvers I saw over and over inside these locks was just amazing. Again, this causes the terror, I believe, that ends up with For Sale signs on the boats. If only the boaters had a few years of experience before attempting this major trip. And these locks can be big - 80 feet of drop. Imagine that with boats pulling away from the walls, turning sideways, seeing engine stalls on entering and departing the lock, etc.

- The Tenn-Tom is glorious with many interesting places. We were able to take a break in Bay Springs for 9 nights of beautiful weather, kayaking, dog walking, dinghy exploring, etc (our longest stop on the loop). But you see, that's the problem - it's hard to stop and stay anywhere for a while. With about 6,000 miles to cover, you have to be moving nearly every day. It's rare and difficult to stop for a week and really unwind. Instead, if you get an extra day somewhere, you'll be off again quickly because there are too many miles to make up. I also have to say that the Tenn-Tom is the first place that is reachable by not doing the loop - you can go there in the spring by heading up from Mobile. But if you do that, you'll have much more time to really see the different towns and areas.

- Mobile and the entire Gulf coast is also wonderful. And again, you can easily do that area with comfort and low pressure by just going there and not doing the loop.


I'm sure others have had different experiences. That's OK. It's not something I'm interested in debating. I'm happy to present an alternative view to the many Koolaid-inspired blog postings about doing the loop. If you spent the money and loved the Great Lakes and major rivers, good on ya. I doubt you'll go back but I'm honestly happy that you didn't sell your boat after those experiences (if you were one of the rare ones who didn't sell).

The people were great throughout the journey. But that's true everywhere. We often find ourselves in the middle of large groups because of ActiveCaptain so we see that everywhere. You don't need to subject yourself to so much travel and danger to get that.

My advice is that if you really want to do the loop, get a lot of experience first. Do the east coast from Maine to the Keys a few times. Go to the Bahamas a few times. If you then do the loop, you'll have the ability and experience to be safe. If instead you retire, buy a boat, and run off to do the loop, you, and more likely your wife, will get scared enough to give up boating forever.
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Old 12-24-2016, 09:09 AM   #34
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So why it's boring...
Sounds like 90% of your trip was great, not boring.

Think you miss the point about people buying and selling their boat. There are large numbers of retired people who spend 1 to 5 years traveling the USA. Then they sell the RV. They view the RV as a tool to realize a dream, not a lifestyle or continuing recreation. For many, the cost of owning the looping boat long term is not possible within their retirement budget. Have talk to two couples that viewed their loop boat simply as a one year lease to take the once in a lifetime trip.

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Old 12-24-2016, 09:18 AM   #35
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Sounds like 90% of your trip was great, not boring.

Think you miss the point about people buying and selling their boat. There are large numbers of retired people who spend 1 to 5 years traveling the USA. Then they sell the RV. They view the RV as a tool to realize a dream, not a lifestyle or continuing recreation. For many, the cost of owning the looping boat long term is not possible within their retirement budget. Have talk to two couples that viewed their loop boat simply as a one year lease to take the once in a lifetime trip.

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+1

Jeffrey just did a nice job of selling people on the Loop.
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Old 12-24-2016, 09:58 AM   #36
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(this is where it gets boring)

- The entire state of Michigan is like that Christmas movie where the same 24 hours happen over and over. From a lawsuit settlement over fuel, every marina is regulated. They're all the same. We lost track of where we were a few times - the way you know which town you're in happens by looking at the names on the tee shirts in the shops. Every town has them with the exact same tee shirts - just the town name is changed. There are some exceptions like Mackinac and Charlevoix but they are rare. And really, there's no time to stay a week or more to explore - you've got too many miles ahead of you and some specific dates to meet. Perhaps our mistake was staying in Michigan. I've heard that crossing the lake to Wisconsin is more enjoyable. Again though, time is short and you have to keep moving.
I guess if you are a live-aboard and full time cruiser, I can see where you are coming from on the "always keep moving routine". So yeah, you have to be off Lake Michigan nominally by September 30th to avoid snotty weather. We did our boating on western Lake Michigan and we absolutely loved it. If and when we do the loop, we look forward to getting back there and visiting the nameless towns you criticize like Elk Rapids, Traverse City, Northport, Leland, Frankfort, Onekama, Ludington, Pentwater, Whitehall, Muskegon, Grand Haven, Saugatuck and others. I will concede Benton Harbor and south ain't so great.

So basically you found the loop boring because you didn't like Michigan and you thought the Illinois, Mississippi, Ohio were dangerous and industrial and you had bad experience with other boaters while locking. I don't particularly want to do the Illinois, Mississippi, Ohio part either but that certainly is less than 20% of the total loop experience.

If one were to take their time and do the loop in 2, 3, 4 or more years, it would be inherently more pleasurable. That is probably impractical for full time live-aboard cruisers but my concept would be to start from FL and spend the first year on the east coast up to the Chessie. The second year to do the NY and Canadian canals. The third year on the Great Lakes. The final year would come home from southwest Michigan.

If you are in a situation where you always have to keep moving, maybe you shouldn't be doing the loop.
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Old 12-24-2016, 10:56 AM   #37
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Sounds like 90% of your trip was great, not boring.

Think you miss the point about people buying and selling their boat. There are large numbers of retired people who spend 1 to 5 years traveling the USA. Then they sell the RV. They view the RV as a tool to realize a dream, not a lifestyle or continuing recreation. For many, the cost of owning the looping boat long term is not possible within their retirement budget. Have talk to two couples that viewed their loop boat simply as a one year lease to take the once in a lifetime trip.

Ted
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Same thing with passagemaker style boats. If my memory serves correctly the folks at Nordhavn even talk (or talked) about having an "exit plan" in some of their advertising or articles.

The concept is easy. Buy a boat, or motorhome. Use it to fulfill a dream, then sell it. This frees up money to do something else. The depreciation is just part of the expense of making the dream come true.

Not everybody dreams of becoming a liveaboard for the rest of their lives.
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:03 PM   #38
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He says he doesn't want to debate but then refers to the other view as Koolaid inspired posts.

Well, we've never been to a Curtis Stokes presentation. We also spent a couple of days at nearly every stop. We never anchored on the Illinois or the Mississippi as there are plenty of marinas along the way. I might suggest he check out this tool called Active Captain since they're all shown there. We did anchor once on the Ohio for a few hours as the locks there do have a major traffic problem and so have a longer wait than elsewhere.

Yes, people do rush the loop often. We left NYC on May 1 and left Chicago on October 12. That's the only real time sensitive aspect of the loop. I don't recommend trying to do it all in one year. Spend a year or two cruising the east coast. Spent another year or two on the inland rivers, the TN, Cumberland, Missouri, Ohio, Arkansas, TN Tom, spend a year on the gulf coast and western coast of FL.

We all do the loop at different paces and it is important to plan it in a way that fits your cruising style. Jeffrey obviously did not do that. We most decidedly didn't cruise every day. We could have done it faster but we spent a couple of days in almost all locations, three or four in many and a week or so in several. We can also repeat the loop and spend those days in many different places if we choose.

The view that people just say they liked the loop because they spent money on it is crazy and just insulting to others. As to selling their boats afterward, I've known many who planned to do that from the start, bought a boat with the full intent of just using it for the loop. Some have done that more than once. For many people boating isn't their life, but just a time in their life. They don't choose to live on a boat or spend the amount of time and years boating that others of us have.

Some are older and plan on settling into a more permanent location after while others do as one poster mentioned and that is take a year to do it with their kids while still young enough to enjoy and while their kids can fully enjoy it.

As to the entire state of Michigan being boring, well, we visited the following towns in Michigan-Detroit, Grosse Pointe Shores, Port Huron, Bay City, Marquette, Houghton, Munising, Sault Ste Marie, Cheboygan, St. Ignace, Mackinaw City, Petoskey, Charlevoix, Traverse City, Beaver Island, Manistee, Muskegon, Grand Haven, Saugatuck, and South Haven. Didn't find the state boring. Seems his complaint is that the state has built nice marinas throughout and so you dock at many similarly nice marinas along the way. As another mentioned, if it's Lake Michigan he found boring, well, we also visited several towns in Wisconsin, along the western shores. Then there's Chicago. Chicago is many things to different people but we didn't find it boring. Of course we only had two weeks there and could have enjoyed twice that time.

I do agree that some people try to fit the entire loop into too short a time. I think a year is too little, but if that's all you have then that will be one of the most pleasure filled years of your life. I also think some do focus too much on completing the loop and too little on seeing the sites along the way. Many loopers never venture far from their boats and that's a shame. I can't imagine going to Buffalo and not taking time to visit Niagara Falls. I also find many go strictly from Oswego through and out of Lake Ontario as quickly as possible.

Then some try to see every town on the loop. That's simply impossible to do in one trip. We took each lake and section and figured out how many days we had for that area. Then we decided how many different towns that was. We listed all the potential stops in that area and ranked each stop on a scale of 1 to 5. 5 was a must see, 4 very enjoyable, 3 looked nice, 2 could wait for a future trip and 1 had no appeal. If we had decided 21 days and started with a list of 15 towns, we reduced it and once down to 10 or 8, then we had time to enjoy each.

What I would suggest is talking to as many who have done the loop as possible and getting all the likes and dislikes, finding out what they would do different if doing it over, what they enjoyed and didn't. That would include listening to Jeffrey who apparently enjoyed a lot of it, but calls it the most boring trip of his life, so find out what he did that made it so boring.

I think most would agree with him on the Illinois and Mississippi being the least enjoyable section. However, here was our trick for not finding them so bad. First we spent a lot of time in Chicago and we were very refreshed and ready for some quiet and "boring" cruising down river. While I've read of those who enjoyed the small towns on the Illinois river, we chose to transit it quickly. We treated it a bit like riverboating, cooking and eating along the way, just brief stops, and we did Chicago to the St. Louis area in 4 days. They were full days of cruising. Then we rented a car and we enjoyed all St. Louis had to offer and it does have a lot to offer. This break got us ready for the Mississippi. Next stop, Hoppie's, just for the night. Then an early morning start the next day and that allowed us to make it to the Ohio River in one day. If you can't quite do that, then there are quite a few decent anchorages on the Mississippi, slightly short of the Ohio. Now, two days from St. Louis, we were excited about being close to the Cumberland and TN Rivers, so the one long day locking through was not an issue as we knew once through we'd be to Green Turtle Bay.

Figure out what appeals to you and what doesn't. Don't let the 10% that doesn't ruin the trip for you. Also, do not go in thinking it's going to be cheap. Even Mr. Cheap Loop himself, Captain John, warns against that. While he's done it many times and very inexpensively, he recognizes that's not the norm and not really the way a first timer will enjoy it.

Read as many actual experiences as possible. Read about where people stopped and what they enjoyed the most. Then decide how much like those persons you are. Take breaks. Don't race through. If you feel like you're racing, then you didn't plan it well. We did the Erie and Oswego and a lot of locks on the canals. So, we spent three days on Oneida Lake, went fishing, explored, and we made a side trip to Cooperstown and it was definitely a home run, and a trip to Syracuse to see the Erie Canal Museum.

Now, is the loop the only enjoyable cruising or even the best, I'll not compare as I've never found any bad cruising or bad places to go by water. If I only had one year of my life allocated to cruising, I don't know where I'd choose. However, hopefully, it's not either or. The loop may be a start or a culmination, or just part of. It may be followed by a different type of boating. For all those Jeffrey says sell their boats, I know just as many who find a place to settle down and stay in their boat. Marathon is filled with loop finishers. Many stay on the TN River. Some take the loop just hoping to find the perfect home at the end. Most people just don't have the time to do the loop and there's plenty they can enjoy, closer to their home waters. However, I'm glad we did the loop or the NY to Pickwick section as we have a few years still of exploring the rivers before circling the rest of the way.
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:27 PM   #39
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Jeez , good for Curtis Stokes! He is a good marketer of yachts and a true gentleman.
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Old 12-24-2016, 03:11 PM   #40
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Jeez , good for Curtis Stokes! He is a good marketer of yachts and a true gentleman.


+1

To be clear. I never conducted a business transaction with Mr Stokes however he freely gave me the benefit of his valuable insight and advice by telephone on several occasions. Never once caring that I had no intention of purchasing from him at the time. Perhaps as much as anyone else he helped me put feathers on the darts that where my boating aspirations.
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