Wood Boat - Insurance and Pending dilemna

[Art]

Outside of cold molded boats, or specialty boats (such as Devlin stitch and glue) there are no major producers of wood boats today- so, the newest wood boats are from the late 70s/early 80s.

Wood boats (by actuarial claims data) have higher cost claims that a similar sized fiberglass boats primarily due to age, a lack of skilled craftsman, and/or a lack of good maintenance. Insurance premiums and the requirement for the survey to be hauled with fasteners pulled for inspection.

Gelcoats have been known to blister, but blistering (to the best of my knowledge) has never caused a vessel to sink. Delamination is another known factor of FG, but extremely rare. Wood planking that leaks has been known to sink vessels.

Thank You, Peter. If anyone should well know relevant statistics... it is you!

 

[Simi 60]

Outside of cold molded boats, or specialty boats (such as Devlin stitch and glue) there are no major producers of wood boats today- .

The world is so much bigger than america.

 

[Pau Hana]

The world is so much bigger than america.

Agreed! My experience is based on being stateside, so I admit I may be off base outside the North America market.

Are there production wooden boat manufacturers in Oz or elsewhere that still use traditional techniques (uncoated planking, mechanical fastenings, caulking for leak prevention, etc.)?

 

[TDunn]

Interesting. There are quite a few wooden boats here in Maine. I also know of quite a few people who build traditional wooden boats. However, they are not production builders and generally build one boat at a time. I agree that finding skilled people to work on wooden boats can be an issue. That said I know of several yards that specialize in wooden boats. The yard I deal with is about 40% wooden boats. The marina I keep my boat at has a number of wooden boats, the oldest being from 1899. Mine is the second oldest at 1936. Personally I have not had a problem insuring my boat or having it hauled.

 

[Portage_Bay]

If you're looking for insurance for a wooden boat dig around on the Wooden Boat Forum where that topic pops up frequently. I considered an older woodie last fall and was able to locate insurance at that time.

 

[Art]

Agreed! My experience is based on being stateside, so I admit I may be off base outside the North America market.

Are there production wooden boat manufacturers in Oz or elsewhere that still use traditional techniques (uncoated planking, mechanical fastenings, caulking for leak prevention, etc.)?

Personally I bet that internationally there are some... maybe even quite a few wood boat builders. In the US, I believe that some limited volume builders are still in New England states [Maine especially]. That said; I imagine their are not high production international outfits and the ones that do still build hulls with wood are highly specialized in the current best construction methods of their trade. However, that does not remove the several facts of material composition deterioration physics that even the best built "aged" wood boats require considerable extra maintenance, repair and upkeep than best built "aged" fiberglass boats; of which there are many boats from brand builders.

Why yards are leery to haul old wood boats / Point in fact; mid 1980's: Relatively large [55' or so, built in mid 60's] Pacemaker wooden pleasure boat was hauled on a trolley lift in San Rafael CA. Rot and critters had set in so bad in its bottom planks and keel that it buckled midship and sprung the boat shape into a hog shaped hull. Many bottom planks cracked and fasteners galore sprung loose. It was set onto a dry dock framed holding bin, with extra wood and metal support items along its length. That boat sat in place [taking up valuable yard space] for several years while law suite litigation continued. Eventually it was dismantled in place by a wrecking crew using chainsaws, fork lifts, come alongs... etc. Evidently the yard took a bath financially.

Couple years after that boat was gone a friend asked me if I'd help him and a couple other wood-boat savvy persons restore the bottom of his still fairly good condition WWII 41' Navy commissioned Chris Craft. We did it in the same yard as the Pacemaker had been. It took a lot of urging and signed disclaimers before the yard would haul the wooden Chris. Once we got her in place for efforts to perform there were several bad planks and considerable amount of refastening needed on below water line planks. Keel was primarily OK. Work was performed on the transom too.

Reason I bring up the above mentioned items is because I've been into boats and boat building/repairing/restoring for various years and time spans during nearly all of my life. I currently own two fiberglass boats and am near to acquire another. Back in the late 50's through mid 70's I did a lot of improvement work on wood boats in yards on LI and in Maine. Early 1970's I even worked in a Maine new boat builder that used both wood and fiberglass building methods.

Suffice it to say - Correctly built and looked after wood boats are fine pieces of boat building craftsmanship. Fiberglass boats when well built are fine items of boat building craftsmanship too. The difference in the two is the longevity of material lastability and duration between required refinishing/repairs/maintenance. Regarding simplicity of ownership and reduced efforts as well as amount of money spent... Due to my over five [5] decades of hands-on experienced opinion... I say, fiberglass wins hands down!

 

[sdowney717]

Sure fiberglass is best of all boat materials in our size range for personal boats.
Since so many wooden boats are gone, I would think the few remaining are being kept up in good condition, I know mine is.
In lower Chesapeake Bay, here I know of 6 places close by can haul boats on a travel-lift, and 2 of them flat out refuse to haul a wood boat even if its got a slip in their marina, the other 4 will haul it out. Only one marina absolutely refuses to allow a wood boat a slip, and that is SouthHall landings marina across from the Salt Ponds in Hampton VA. Fine with me, the place is loaded with biting flies.

Went out to Oregon for a 2 week road trip to visit our daughter, and there are quite a few wood boats in marinas that I saw. Probably northern areas wood boats last longer, so less prejudice against them by marina people.

Stay away from a resort marina and go to one where they still have wooden work boats and they will treat you better if you have a wood boat.

 

[sdowney717]

To the OP, the insurance company will take the boat and it will be crushed and go to a landfill. Is that what you want to happen to this boat? then take the small amount of money and run.

I have insurance thru Boat US with Geico on my wood boat, but I also only have liability. Its just not worth insuring for anything more.

 

[Simi 60]

Agreed! My experience is based on being stateside, so I admit I may be off base outside the North America market.

Are there production wooden boat manufacturers in Oz or elsewhere that still use traditional techniques (uncoated planking, mechanical fastenings, caulking for leak prevention, etc.)?

They still do traditional builds in many parts of south east asia

The Phinisi - Building It Right


http://boatbuildingindonesia.com/th...indonesia-the-most-powerful-sailing-boat.html

Turkish gulets are still done timber
Vietnam , Malay, Thai have extensive timber fishing fleets

Phinisis like the one below, $130,000/week + expenses to charter

https://www.yachtcharterfleet.com/luxury-charter-yacht-48216/lamima.htm

 

[Pau Hana]

They still do traditional builds in many parts of south east asia

The Phinisi - Building It Right


http://boatbuildingindonesia.com/th...indonesia-the-most-powerful-sailing-boat.html

Turkish gulets are still done timber
Vietnam , Malay, Thai have extensive timber fishing fleets

Phinisis like the one below, $130,000/week + expenses to charter

https://www.yachtcharterfleet.com/luxury-charter-yacht-48216/lamima.htm

Beautiful boat!

 

[sdowney717]

With a wood boat your more a part of the natural world, I think so.
But most people can not repair them, or dont want to. I always hear from most everyone, that they like my wood boat, but they think it is way too much work.

I see loads of old neglected and ignored FG boats where some owners never seem to even visit the boat. I think their idea of a boat is get it and let it sit and molder in the slip or on the hard, then they die and the heirs have to dispose of it. I am not into that kind of boating...

 

[Art]

Nice wood boat construction!

 

[BandB]

Perhaps boat yards should ask to see the last survey,

And for the purpose of a boat yard, if it wasn't yesterday, it's outdated. In other places, yards will handle them, but with you basically signing your life away in terms of signing all the things they will not be responsible for.

 

[AusCan]

We cruised around Flores, Rinca and Komodo Islands in Indonesia on this one last month.
Nothing like an old chunky wooden boat. I loved it.

 

[COD]

I agree.
As we're already starting to see insurance companies that won't insure vessels under 100K + in value. I suspect soon no matter if the boat is fiberglass OR wood, those of us with our cheaper 30+ year old boats won't be able to get or afford coverage. Just an opinion

Boy..how prophetic was this. Only thing he missed was the cutoff number of years. Fast forward 4 years and we're looking at a beautiful 36 wood GB and finding it extremely difficult to find insurance. And what most insurers are telling me is their underwriting will no longer look at any boat over 40 years old...glass or wood. The minor saving grace is most are grandfathering existing policies.

 

[Art]

Marine ins seems to be getting nuts for older model boats. I don't miss payments and have had no need for any claims - at least not yet, for decades! Don't want to bring ins spotlight glaring down upon our good condition and much fun 1977 Tolly!

 

[COD]

For now they seem to be keeping existing clients but you know how that goes. Insurance companies can change their mind any time they want. My guess these insurance underwriters are not “boat people”. Because most boaters wound agree that the age of a vessel is a minimal factor in whether there might be a large claim. The condition the boat is maintained in and the safety practices of the owner should be the key factors but I also understand that monitoring those kinds of things is difficult for an insurance company without labor intensive inspections so they’re left to mange by metrics… or as the old saying goes “bean counters”.

 

[SteveK]

Try Hagerty

 

[COD]

Try Hagerty

Thanks...just submitted their on-line form for a quote. I have 2 classic cars with them and have had no claims so maybe that'll help a little. We shall see.

 

[COD]

Thanks...just submitted their on-line form for a quote. I have 2 classic cars with them and have had no claims so maybe that'll help a little. We shall see.

That didn't take long... $2,648/yr. Probably the best I'll find ~ Current cost for my 32' GB is $800/yr so seems like a big jump.

 

[SteveK]

That didn't take long... $2,648/yr. Probably the best I'll find ~ Current cost for my 32' GB is $800/yr so seems like a big jump.

Now contact Peter "Pau Hana" here on TF

 

[Pau Hana]

For now they seem to be keeping existing clients but you know how that goes. Insurance companies can change their mind any time they want. My guess these insurance underwriters are not “boat people”. Because most boaters wound agree that the age of a vessel is a minimal factor in whether there might be a large claim. The condition the boat is maintained in and the safety practices of the owner should be the key factors but I also understand that monitoring those kinds of things is difficult for an insurance company without labor intensive inspections so they’re left to mange by metrics… or as the old saying goes “bean counters”.

Most marine insurers are "boat people" and have a good general knowledge of vessels- or they acquire it. As an example, I am a lifelong power boater, have Naval experience, my USCG 100 ton license, and have owned many powerboat- and I have a substantial portfolio of sailboat clients. I learned what I didn't know as a student of my business.

The sad fact is that too many boats are left to the devices of owners that do not take proper care of them. Older boats are purchased with good intentions that are never realized. Other owners look for the least expensive ways to minimally maintain their vessel. All these data points are from a claims conference I attended several years back. The age of a vessel does matter with regards to claims- statistically speaking, older boats simply suffer more claims across the board.

The survey is the principal tool that insurers use to get the best picture possible of the material condition of the vessel, good and bad. I would be hesitant to purchase an older vessel without the benefit of an objective observer (the surveyor) poking and prodding to show me things that my excited buyers eyes either cannot see, or refuse to see. So yes, more intensive scrutiny of older vessels may be a way to lower costs (by ensuring that vessel material condition is maintained to high standards- but who would pay for those inspections?

We do the best we can.

With a wood boat your more a part of the natural world, I think so.
But most people can not repair them, or dont want to. I always hear from most everyone, that they like my wood boat, but they think it is way too much work.

I see loads of old neglected and ignored FG boats where some owners never seem to even visit the boat. I think their idea of a boat is get it and let it sit and molder in the slip or on the hard, then they die and the heirs have to dispose of it. I am not into that kind of boating...

Too true.

 

[Pau Hana]

That didn't take long... $2,648/yr. Probably the best I'll find ~ Current cost for my 32' GB is $800/yr so seems like a big jump.

What coverages are offered for that $2,648? Remember that the policy is only as good as how the policy will serve you in a claim, so please take the time to read what the quote/policy actually covers.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Marine ins seems to be getting nuts for older model boats. I don't miss payments and have had no need for any claims - at least not yet, for decades! Don't want to bring ins spotlight glaring down upon our good condition and much fun 1977 Tolly!

So if you put all that money in the bank instead of insurance would you have a big nugget.

 

[Art]

So if you put all that money in the bank instead of insurance would you have a big nugget.

A nugget of thousands upon thousands - for sure - from cumulative decades of ins costs... if they were to be banked instead of paying for ins.

However, IMO... paying for nearly any type of ins is not so much for the few to even several thousand dollar occasional desire for loss support. But rather... ins is for the hundreds of thousand dollar [or more] cataclysmic losses that might just happen. And, those scale of loss night happen in the beginning of carrying ins on anything.

That's why I feel it's important practice to have good ins policies. Somewhat costly by the year, but - financial life savers when really needed!!

 

[Simi 60]

I'd far rather put insurance coin towards an extra levels of maintenance and self insure

Unfortunately here and I believe most places, no insurance means no lift to do maintenance

 

[Comodave]

I'd far rather put insurance coin towards an extra levels of maintenance and self insure

Unfortunately here and I believe most places, no insurance means no lift to do maintenance

Or in a lot of places no dockage either, for those that want dockage.

 

[Art]

Or in a lot of places no dockage either, for those that want dockage.

Exactly - Regarding your post #117 and the one above this #116.

Which are another two substantial reasons for having ins... to add to why/what I mention as I did [on #115] two posts above yours.

 

[keith c]

The first "sleep aboard/traveling boat " I ever owned was a 1971 GB 36 woodie.To say it was the love of my life was a gross understatement! Times change, things break, the daily maintance grind gets worse etc.The boat was on the market for more than a year when "the" buyer came along. The first paragraph of his survey said "replace all 12v and 110v wiring! The buyer was the only offer I ever got and he paid 10% below ask. My 34MS trawler has two pieces of exterior teak measuring 3in by 9 in. My boat clean up uses 3 items only ,a mop, a plastic bucket and dawn dishwashing liquid. Take the "total loss" money and move on ! You will still have great memories!

 

[BandB]

Having thought it over I realize the only reason I am tempted is because of the aforementioned overall prejudice against wood. The harbors, the boat labor force and other marine related businesses, even the insurance companies and certainly the boat resale market in southern California do not seem all that amenable to wooden hulls. I wonder what it will be like in another 5 years. Maybe wood will make a resurgence? Frankly I hate fiberglass but perhaps its time for me to throw in the towel.

You really like to use the word prejudice, but you overlook the reality that the prejudice, in this case, is justified. Wood is definitely not going to make a resurgence. If you hate fiberglass, then maybe it's time you examine your own prejudice and find out what it's based on. Is it justified by reality? I doubt not. Frankly, I suspect you've brainwashed yourself. Easy for any of us to do. There are foods I'm very allergic too so I've brainwashed myself to hate the taste and smell and even sight of them. A fiberglass boat can do anything the wooden one could, but without all the care and maintenance.

Reality: Your boat was totaled. The cost of the engines exceeds the value of the boat with the engines. Why? Likely because it's wooden. Likely it's remaining life is judged to be short. Outside of Amish country, how many people do you know who still use horse and buggy for their transportation. I love a ride in a horse drawn cart through central park or in other places, but don't desire owning one for transportation.

Maybe you could find a group in your area to get together occasionally and even build wood models or wooden canoes or something.

Do you long for your 19" black and white tv? Or no television and just radio? Many things in life we have memories of, but doesn't mean we really want to go back. I have memories of my first cars and others have older memories, but today's cars are so much better in nearly every aspect.

With fiberglass, you'll be hit slowly by all the things you no longer have to do, the precautions, the maintenance. You'll have mixed feelings as you'll miss doing those things but once out of the habit, you'll find the freedom from doing them a positive.

Why don't you carefully examine all the prejudices against wooden boats and try to understand them. They're based on good, solid, reasons. Those who nostalgically love wooden boats understand, but still love them. They preserve and turn some into museum pieces. However, insurers have the numbers to know and harbors have encountered the problems. I grew up around some beautiful wooden boats on the lake, mainly Century and Chris Craft, but I developed a prejudice against. Why? They kept sinking. Some from neglect, but most were vigilantly cared for by owners and, upon sinking, were raised, the engines rehabbed, and the boat repaired and relaunched. It was a labor of love. Became a labor of love for a few wealthy men who had other boats, but these were their projects still. However, my prejudice was established as beautiful boats from a past time, but I'd never want to own one. My fiberglass boat never sank.

Sorry, that you're so harshly forced to move from an older time to today, but sometimes that just happens to us all.