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Old 07-23-2017, 04:01 PM   #21
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Eric

LOL

I'm certainly not the great anchor whisper but I do know that in many bottoms where I tried to anchor the Fortress was not the super anchor it is in sand or mud. OTOH I could usually get my Bruce to set even if it took multiple try's and the Boss seems to be the easiest anchor I've ever had to set (only one area where it has a problem but most all my anchors have had a problem there). Perhaps someone may have better luck or a better anchor.

Just my SSO!
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:29 AM   #22
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If fluke area was the only determine factor the Boss would win hands down but fluke area is only one part of the equation which makes rating anchors a very difficult practice.
Agreed. During the Chesapeake Bay soft mud testing there was a very high expectation that because of its massive surface area, the 45 lb Manson Boss would be a top performer, but during several pull tests just it slid along the bottom without spiking the tension.

Why? I was educated by our consultant, Bob Taylor, who worked with the US Navy and offshore industry for 50 years (he has also worked with Peter Bruce and Vryhof) that it is the effective fluke angle which will determine whether an anchor will immediately engage and penetrate into a sea bottom.

If you look at the Manson Boss, it is flat across the bottom and so at least in soft mud, this design does not aggressively point and orient the fluke into a steep downward position.


Additionally, there are sea bottoms where the Fortress and its two massive flukes is going to be challenged, specifically in grass, weeds, or rocks where those flukes might only get a minimal bite, even though they are very sharp.

I think in those cases, you might be better served by an anchor with a narrow single fluke, and with some serious weight behind it.


If you have used a Fortress as a primary and you anchor in sand, mud or clay, AND you have not been satisfied with it, then I suspect it was undersized for the boat and possibly the bottom & wind conditions.

Of course, there is also the possibility of operator error, and I have certainly heard my share of those stories during the past 20 years from boaters who because of their limited knowledge & skill, they have had some very unrealistic expectations about their anchor's performance.
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:11 AM   #23
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So I think what you are saying among other things is that the Boss can even be improved by either bending the forward point down or or by adding a small wedge to the trailing bottom of the fluke which would change the angle of pull and force the point down. Is that what you are inferring?

My experience with mud is that most any anchor will hold well as it can dive easily into the soft mud.

The Fortress I had was avtually oversized for my boat and it was usually grass bottoms that gave it fits. I often wondered if the light weight of the Fortress might have been a contributing factor?

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:18 AM   #24
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So I think what you are saying among other things is that the Boss can even be improved by either bending the forward point down or or by adding a small wedge to the trailing bottom of the fluke which would change the angle of pull and force the point down. Is that what you are inferring?
Yes. If you get a chance, take a look at the Spade or Ultra anchor, which both have a very steeply-sloped fluke and an aggressive "angle of attack" when they hit the sea bottom.

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My experience with mud is that most any anchor will hold well as it can dive easily into the soft mud.
Yes, the weight of any anchor will help it to sink in soft mud. However, if it is a fixed-fluke anchor and then its lands on its side or upside down, then the question is whether the anchor will be able to correctly orient the fluke into the downward position as it is being slowly pulled through the soft mud.

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The Fortress I had was avtually oversized for my boat and it was usually grass bottoms that gave it fits. I often wondered if the light weight of the Fortress might have been a contributing factor?

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
Lighter weight can definitely be a problem for a Fortress in grass, where I have heard conflicting reports regarding the anchor's performance.

Some customers have said that they are sharp enough to slice through the grass and reach further bottoms below, while others have said that they don't have the weight needed to push through the vegetation. I think it might all depend on the thickness.

Glad to be of any assistance.

Safe anchoring,
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:28 AM   #25
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My second anchor on the bow is an Ultra and while it works well the Boss has it beat in my humble opinion.

Thanks so much for enlightening me on anchors.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:34 AM   #26
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My second anchor on the bow is an Ultra and while it works well the Boss has it beat in my humble opinion.

Thanks so much for enlightening me on anchors.

Bigfish,

Glad to hear that the Ultra & Boss are both working well for you and to be helpful.

Safe anchoring,
Brian

P.s. I meant to say in the previous post: "Some customers have said that they are sharp enough to slice through the grass and reach firmer bottoms below."
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:28 AM   #27
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We have a smaller boat, a Mainship Pilot 34, and anchor out often in the Thousand Islands of the St Lawrence River. We have a Rocna Vulcan 20 (44lb) anchor on our boat and we love it. We don't drag anchor, at least not yet anyway. I got the largest I believe my windlass can handle. You cannot be faulted for going big on the anchor!
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Old 07-25-2017, 12:15 PM   #28
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Idle Time,
"bigger is better" ... ONLY if your anchor is too small.
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Old 07-25-2017, 12:26 PM   #29
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Here is a question for you. Assuming your boat can easily carry the extra weight and your windless can lift the extra weight can an oversized anchor be detrimental?
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:45 AM   #30
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I can usually walk through any marina and immediately identify the boats that have actually been on an extended cruise at one time, just by what's hanging off the bow.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:17 AM   #31
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Don't think so other than signs of wear and usage on the anchors.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:28 AM   #32
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Eric

Did you see my post 29?
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:37 AM   #33
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Group9,
Don't think so other than signs of wear and usage on the anchors.
That's not even it.

It's size and design. People who anchor out in all different kinds of conditions and bottoms, usually have very different anchors than people who rarely anchor out, or who rarely venture very far from home.

It's human nature. Most people don't like to buy something they don't really need. And, it's hard to justify a new anchor when all you do is day trip from marina to marina, anyway.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:45 AM   #34
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Eric

Here is a question for you. Assuming your boat can easily carry the extra weight and your windless can lift the extra weight can an oversized anchor be detrimental?
Yes, definitely. Specifically because you don't mention the degree of "detrimental" other than "boat can easily carry".

If one was to evaluate the average boat they would probably find that they were 25% or more overloaded w extra weight. Most any element of boat performance will be enhanced by weight reduction. Things most never think about like how promptly a boat slows or stops when throttled heavily in reverse. Lightness in a boat relative to performance is unquestionable.

Some would argue weight is a virtue. Some insignificant cases can be made. And the very essence of "trawler" is based on weight .. heavy cruiser. But "extra" weight is stupid. If you have an anchor that holds your boat what would you do w more weight? Show your friends that your anchor is really big? To grow hair on your chest .. essentially.

As I see it there's no excuse for excess weight.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:01 AM   #35
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Yes, definitely. Specifically because you don't mention the degree of "detrimental" other than "boat can easily carry".

If one was to evaluate the average boat they would probably find that they were 25% or more overloaded w extra weight. Most any element of boat performance will be enhanced by weight reduction. Things most never think about like how promptly a boat slows or stops when throttled heavily in reverse. Lightness in a boat relative to performance is unquestionable.

Some would argue weight is a virtue. Some insignificant cases can be made. And the very essence of "trawler" is based on weight .. heavy cruiser. But "extra" weight is stupid. If you have an anchor that holds your boat what would you do w more weight? Show your friends that your anchor is really big? To grow hair on your chest .. essentially.

As I see it there's no excuse for excess weight.
What's the highest wind speed you have ever been caught at anchor in?

I upgraded my anchor this last time, after getting caught in an un-forecast 75 mile per hour squall in the Bahamas.

But, if I never left my home waters, I probably would have a lot smaller anchor. I know I had a smaller one on my boats back when I did only cruise close to home.

Saying the guy who only cruises his backyard, and the guy who cruises to far away places need the same anchoring capability is not really valid.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:00 PM   #36
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Fifty knots.

Using your philosophy why not a 200lb anchor? But then ya never know what will come along. 300lb anchor?

There's lots printed on the size of anchors to have. Read and pick a size.

And if you're paranoid and consider dragging the end of the world go all out.

With GPS anchor alarms many boats could downsize their anchor and rode. Dragging can now be almost considered an inconvience and if you're still uncomfortable post a watch.

"Saying the guy who only cruises his backyard, and the guy who cruises to far away places need the same anchoring capability is not really valid."
Where did I say that?
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:21 PM   #37
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For those interested in some unscientific testing of various anchor brands, check out S/V Panope's YouTube videos. https://youtu.be/R2bBZ1WQSP4
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Old 07-27-2017, 01:20 PM   #38
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Fifty knots.

Using your philosophy why not a 200lb anchor? But then ya never know what will come along. 300lb anchor?

There's lots printed on the size of anchors to have. Read and pick a size.

And if you're paranoid and consider dragging the end of the world go all out.

With GPS anchor alarms many boats could downsize their anchor and rode. Dragging can now be almost considered an inconvience and if you're still uncomfortable post a watch.

"Saying the guy who only cruises his backyard, and the guy who cruises to far away places need the same anchoring capability is not really valid."
Where did I say that?
Well, thanks for all of those random (and, slightly weird) thoughts, but I prefer to let my experience, and my knowledge of the conditions I will be cruising in, to be my guide when choosing my anchoring gear. I hope you understand.
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:09 PM   #39
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HaHa quarter speed,
Was pushing the envelope of thinking to get ahold of the concept of how much weight, too heavy or too light.
Years ago I designed a boat and built it. I came to a slightly interesting pause when it came time to buy the cleats. Five cleats in a typical layout. The boat was 28' long, an OB and I knew it had to be light to perform well. I wanted aluminum for obvious reasons but my beer buget wouldn't handle it. First thought was black plastic and knew I'd take flack for that. In the end I went for small galvanized cleats. And real small for fender cleats.

Living in Juneau Easy Rider's first winter was a trial of snow and wind. Anyone ever hear of the Taku Winds? Can't stand up on the streets downtown and the harbor gusts are very unfriendly. I had a philosophy of tying my boats loose and almost lost her the first Taku wind. Winters in Juneau found me tying real tight after that.

Well, I had fender washers backing the cleat bolts and had no failures. Part of the reason things went well is that the boat was so light. 28' long and mostly 3/8" plywood, 2x2 longitudinals and one frame .. two counting the cabin bulkhead. I made one fairly minor structural modification to the hull bottom near the keel. Too much flex. Took 10' seas and much worse in Dixon Entrance.

Now most of my anchors are 13 to18lbs and haven't dragged after a set. They say a dirt biker or a skier than dosn't fall down at times can't be very good at what they do. To know the limits one must get their feet wet. I admit doing that is risky business but in the bigger is better mode one would never know. Any boat wouldn't be badly named called Risky Business. Well never knowing is bliss I suppose but I like to know my limits.

Haha you could throw it back at me and say "why haven't you tried 6lb anchors?"
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Old 07-27-2017, 04:19 PM   #40
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Hi Eric

I do understand your point but I wold rather err on the side of caution and usually buy an anchor two sizes over what the maker calls for (I don't trust their recommendations.

Thanks.
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