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Old 05-01-2013, 12:04 AM   #41
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... The other thing I have an issue w is the imitation "smoke stack". I just despise them. Tacked on imitation things are sooo tacky and lacking class I would immediately remove the thing if I was lucky enough to ever get a NT. I really love them ... the boat.
The Coot's phoney stack provides headroom between pilothouse and saloon, holds the LPG, and makes recognition easy from afar astern. ... Seems like some complainers of style aren't considering practicality.

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Old 05-01-2013, 12:43 AM   #42
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...A year or so ago, another guy with a Manatee was kicking around the idea of extending his hardtop over the boat deck, and asked me to Photoshop some Europa style boards as supports. After he saw the outcome, he abandoned the idea.
I'm speechless, HH!!

Since I like to fish, the covered cockpit of the Europa wouldn't be a good fit with my preferred boat use.

I appreciate the great visibility and open access of the sedan. The double doors to the cockpit really open up the boat and give it the room needed for more than two.

Does a 34 Californian (36' 8" LOA) compare to a GB 36 sedan (36' 10" LOA)?? In many ways, yes. The price is not as high, but neither is the quality of its cabinetry. It has two staterooms instead of one and a single head with a separate shower. It's got more cabinet storage at the cost of less salon seating. In seaworthiness, its flared bow gives it a very dry ride and greater buoyancy compared to the GB. The snap roll characteristics sound very similar. No teak decks to maintain.

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Old 05-01-2013, 12:58 AM   #43
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I was on a 36'GB the other day, looking at the decks, I had the impression that the walk around deck area on the port and starboard side was wider than my IG 36, poking my head inside I also got the feeling that the interior was narrower than I was used to on my boat. Not sure if this was more of an optical illusion or indeed a design feature.A couple of pictures of the boats

FWIW, Dimensions for a 36' IG(the owners manual does not differentiate between the aft cabin & Europa style)

Height 16'6"
Displacement 23,500 lbs
Beam 12'6"
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:59 AM   #44
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Based on my recollection of the decks on the 36' or so IG that was on our dock for several years on which the owner replaced the teak decking with a gorgeous fiberglass deck better than the factory would have made it, I would say that the GB's side decks are a bit wider, which is a major plus to us given the area we boat in. We will happily sacrifice a bit of interior width for wider decks.

And in the two berth cabins, the side decks do not take away from the practical width of the boat at all. In both the fore and aft cabins the berths, drawers, and other cabinetry go clear out to the side of the hull. So the part of the cabin you actually use is the full width of the boat. Only the part your head and upper torso stand up in is a bit narrower. And of course, the main cabin is a bit narrower.

But that is a minor sacrifice we both gladly accept in return for a nice, wide, full-walkaround deck.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:49 AM   #45
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One thing that might or might not be important to a potential buyer is that a Grand Banks, at least in the smaller 32 and 36 sizes, is a VERY wet boat in quartering seas with a wind, which there usually is if there are waves. The Kenneth Smith-designed hull has very little flare in the forebody (see photo) so what happens is that quartering waves whack against the side of the hull and shoot straight up. With hardly any flare the water continues up past the gunwale and into the air at which point the wind pushes all of it onto the boat and into the windows.
Interesting. When I was interviewing Art DeFever, I asked him how he thought his boats compared to the GBs. He had spent a lot of time cruising in close company with GBs, especially the 46s and 49s. He said essentially the same thing that you do, that the lack of flare forward made them very, very wet boats.

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Old 05-01-2013, 08:11 AM   #46
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On the subject of boat appearance, and acknowledging that aesthetics are totally subjective, of the deFever designs I don't like any of them except the deFever 46. The non-raised pilothouse-style boats like the 48 TO ME are very run-of-the-mill, plain-Jane designs. They have no features of particular interest, the flying bridge is awkwardly positioned, at least on the 48, and there are other things about the one-level designs I don't care for.

The DeFever pilohouse boats, on the other hand, particularly the 46' which I think hits the proportions just right, are outstanding to my way of thinking.

But actually I don't think even any of the branded deFever pilothouse designs get it quite right.
This is a very interesting area, design aesthetics. Art's designs can be split into two categories: the one-off designs of the 60s (http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/a...5&d=1307039792), and the production boats of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Many of the production boats were very minor reworks of earlier designs.

So, for pilothouses, the DeFever/Alaskan 46 begat the DeFever 42 (steel, Mexico), DeFever 50 (wood, Oriental Boat Company) and the DeFever 49 (Glass, Taiwan), more or less unchanged.

In tri-cabins, the DeFever 52 (wood, Oriental Boat Company) begat the DeFever 48, again more or less unchanged.

My favourite by far was the first Dul-Sea (42 feet, wood, 1963, Art's private boat, Boater's Resources: Boating, marinas, accessories, equipment, and supplies at discounts you’ll love!) which begat the DeFever 44 (44 feet, glass, Taiwan). The layout of the DeFever 44 is amazingly roomy, and to my eye at least the sheer is just about perfect.

After these designs, which were pure DeFever, you can see the influence of other designers in the office. Awkward sheerlines, weird flybridge configuration, etc. etc. etc.

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Old 05-01-2013, 09:38 AM   #47
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Since I like to fish, the covered cockpit of the Europa wouldn't be a good fit with my preferred boat use.
That's a point that so many people miss...."the preferred use of the boat." In other words, "the Mission." I had pretty much the same things in mind when I bought my boat and one of them was "how friendly is the cockpit for fishing?"

If the cockpit overhang is in the way of setting the hook on a big fish, it's not fishing friendly! The cockpit size must also be sufficient to support 2 or 3 fishermen without running in to each other.

I agree that there are many boats that compare very favorably with the 32-36 Grand banks from a quality level and at a much lower cost.

I'm driving one!
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:08 AM   #48
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This is a very interesting thread and I've read it as it progressed and finally it hit on the purpose of the boat. What a concept!

I look at several things, like if you intend to have adult guests aboard that are sexually active. This might change the idea of all cabins forward. After all, the walls are what, 1/2" thick.

If it's you and family only, no problem there.

Where you cruise is important too. Pilothouse boats in Mexico don't work and uncovered flybridge boats in Canada either.

Windy areas, pilothouse high freeboard lots of glass boats = fun experiences docking.

Lots of things to look at.

My final take, buy a boat because it's like a GB and much cheaper? When you sell it, much lower selling price and harder market for a buyer.

Lots of things to consider. Good Luck! Hope you find the right boat, too.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:53 PM   #49
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He said essentially the same thing that you do, that the lack of flare forward made them very, very wet boats.

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While not particularly relevant to this thread topic, one of the major differences between the WWII PT boats designed and built by Elco and the PT boats designed and built by Higgins was the same deal--- the Elco was a "dry" boat and the Higgins was a very "wet" boat. The Elco had much more flare in the forebody and this threw the waves out quite a bit. The Higgins with its much more vertical cross-section in the forebody did what our boat does--- throws the water high into the air where the wind, or in the case of the PTs the boat's forward speed, puts it all onto the boat.

The only time this is any sort of inconvenience on our boat (or any wet boat like a GB) is if one has to do something on the foredeck as the boat is going through quartering waves on a windy day. There is no way to go up there without getting soaked. While we rarely need to go up forward when we're underway (other than to relax in a chair on the foredeck if it's not raining), if we do need to go up front when we're quartering into waves we slow down and turn the boat directly into the waves while the other person is on deck.

For whatever reason, when we're headed directly into the waves the hull does not shoot the water as high and so the amount being blown onto the boat is actually quite minimal. But get even just a few degrees off straight into the waves and the major bath begins.

I took a picture some years ago that I can't find at the instant this happened as we were crossing Bellingham Bay on a windy day. All you see out the front windows is a sheet of heavy white spray coming right at you. It's pretty, cool, actually. One can pretend to be driving a crab boat through heavy seas in the Bering Sea during the winter.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:01 PM   #50
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So, for pilothouses, the DeFever/Alaskan 46 begat the DeFever 42 (steel, Mexico),
One of the founders of Kenmore Air Harbor (today called Kenmore Air) and the man who ran it from 1946 to 2000, Bob Munro, had one of these steel-hulled deFevers. He told me only three (or maybe five) were made. The hull was steel but the topsides were all wood. He kept it in a boathouse at the Kenmore Air Harbor base at the north end of Lake Washington. He acquired it as partial payment for a major repair job they had done on a customer's airplane.

For many years he and his wife took it to SE Alaska every summer. Bob was instrumental in getting my wife and I into cruising. When he passed away the family gave us first refusal on the boat. However by then we had acquired our GB and as much as we liked Bob's boat, named "Sea Beaver," we did not want to take on a larger boat with a wood superstructure.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:14 PM   #51
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But that is a minor sacrifice we both gladly accept in return for a nice, wide, full-walkaround deck.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:16 PM   #52
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Good info y'all, thanks for sharing your opinions/facts.
The boat I have zeroed in on after years of homework is the GB 36 Europa single engine. These are very hard to come by and timing is everything. I missed the best one to come along in years down in Florida, a 1998 36 Europa with a single lugger, 2 owner boat with only 1000 hours on it. It sold for $190,000 ish, the most I would be willing to pay for one.
I also really like daddyo's 48 but I'm afraid the amount of work to keep up a 48 footer along with slip fees just might be more than I care to handle.
Thanks again
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:28 PM   #53
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Been looking at this 42 GB Europa, a nice one indeed but out of my price range.
1998 Grand Banks Europa Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I don't know about y'all but I need/want as much protection from the sun as possible. I'm in the Dermatologist office a couple of times a year getting stuff froze off my handsome face. Years of snow skiing all over the western half of the country combined with living/sailing in St Croix for years in the 80's has damaged my skin...I know I'm not alone, some of ya share the same fate from our carefree youth.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:54 PM   #54
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The Europa is the best cruiser configuration for this area but for the opposite reason you're interested in one. Up here, where it rains 24/7/365 or 6, having the covered side decks and that nice covered aft deck which can be enclosed if one desires and even heated lets you be outside without being "outside" even on a windy, rainy day.

The main drawback to the GB36 Europa is that just about all of them have only the one stateroom up forward and one head. While we rarely allow other people on board our boat we do have certain friends we take out, sometimes for a couple of weeks. For this, the tri-cabin is the far superior configuation in the GB36 because it gives each couple their own stateroom and head separated by the main cabin. So someone can get up, make coffee, go for a walk, read, whatever, without disturbing anyone else.

In almost all the GB36 Europas, if one has guests they have to sleep on a berth made up in the main cabin. This can get annoying and underfoot after awhile according to the people we know with GB36 Europas who've had guests aboard for any more than a day or two.

Now if you get up into the GB42 or even better, the GB46, then the Europa really is the best configuration around for this area because you still get that great coverfed and enclosable aft deck plus two or even three staterooms up forward.

The same holds true of the pilothouse "Europas,"--- the deFever 46, the Flemings, and the Krogens.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:06 PM   #55
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The main drawback to the GB36 Europa is that just about all of them have only the one stateroom up forward and one head. While we rarely allow other people on board our boat we do have certain friends we take out, sometimes for a couple of weeks. For this, the tri-cabin is the far superior configuation in the GB36 because it gives each couple their own stateroom and head separated by the main cabin. So someone can get up, make coffee, go for a walk, read, whatever, without disturbing anyone else.
.
I prefer multi-day boating when people bring their own boats. Thus, a single stateroom and head is quite sufficient.

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Old 05-01-2013, 09:16 PM   #56
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...drinks 6, feeds 4, sleeps 2! Perfect!
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:05 PM   #57
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...drinks 6, feeds 4, sleeps 2! Perfect!
Ditto and we have done that a lot!
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:39 PM   #58
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We all now know that your boat only drinks 6 if the other 5 bring their own drinks!
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:55 PM   #59
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We all now know that your boat only drinks 6 if the other 5 bring their own drinks!
If you'd like an IPA beer, Al FlyWright can most likely provide.

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Old 05-02-2013, 01:07 AM   #60
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And later this month we can tour and taste the IPA here during our Petaluma trip. I'll also need to restock by then.
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