Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-27-2013, 11:53 AM   #21
GFC
Guru
 
GFC's Avatar
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beachcomber
Vessel Model: Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,703
In the slip next to me is a ~35' Mathews wood boat. A few years back it was in a different marina and the power went off one very cold winter night. The hull leaked (as some wood boats do) and the bilge pumps ran the battery down and the boat sank. It spent 48 hours under water before it was able to be raised. It then spent a year or more on the hard while the entire boat dried out.

The owner is in the early stages of a many-year project to restore the boat. It's been in the water for over a year now and the bilge pumps still kick on frequently, and indication that the hull is still not sealed.

When I look at what the owner has ahead of him I can only shake my head and wonder why someone would want a project like that.

So I'm back to my original thoughts on wood boats....while he's refinishing his 'popsicle stick' boat, I'll be cruising on my 'tupperware' boat.

Now before you all start attacking me and saying that not all wood boats have leaky hulls, please know that I understand that. I'm not trying to say all wood boats leak, but they do require more maintenance than 'tupperware' boats.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Mike and Tina
Beachcomber 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2013, 12:04 PM   #22
Veteran Member
 
randyt's Avatar
 
City: West Linn, OR
Country: US
Vessel Name: Greenstreet
Vessel Model: 1967 Garden
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
OK, but I am unclear on the "attacking" part.
Randy
__________________

randyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #23
Guru
 
Tad Roberts's Avatar
 
City: Flattop Islands
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blackfish
Vessel Model: custom
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 707
All boats require care and maintenance.....if they don't get it they will sink eventually....doesn't matter what the hull is made of. Fiberglass boats sink too, actually fairly often, and often from neglect.....but marinas are not banning fiberglass boats? That might hurt......

What if you have a wooden boat sheathed with fiberglass? Or a wood cored (balsa is wood) fiberglass boat? Silly.......

Sensible marina operators will demand current survey and insurance, and not worry about construction material.
Tad Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2013, 04:25 PM   #24
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,721
Our harbormaster in Thorne Bay AK bought this fine 38' double end troller built in 1938. No serious issues w the hull (I haven't heard of any actually) but needed a new gear. And as good wood boat owners do, here he is maintaining his proud old wood boat.

Would I buy a wood boat?
Very much yes but only w an extensive survey and all the ducks lined up and examined. Emphasis on "examined". Fishermen "maintain" their boats in ways a yachtsman like ourselves wouldn't think of. For example a lot of SE AK fishermen coat their decks w tar. Good old black tar. Fine protection but us yachties wouldn't tolerate that at all ... me included. I'd allow a slightly sticky oil finish though.

And the OPs expression probably shouldn't be used w any boat. Too often a wood boat will require some rotten wood to be repaired in his deadwood (pun intended) or a FG boat owner may fix a window and find his whole cabin side is delaminated plywood. Annual cost can be guessed at but huge variations will come to pass.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF0217 copy.jpg
Views:	172
Size:	146.4 KB
ID:	16153  
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:27 AM   #25
GFC
Guru
 
GFC's Avatar
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beachcomber
Vessel Model: Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,703
One of the best replies to this question comes from the current BOAT US magazine. It's a response to a letter with a question about worms in wood hulls. This answer was provided by one of BOAT US's Tech Team, Don Casey. In the original letter the writer said there were some worm holes in the hull of a boat he was looking at. The guys on the dock said to stay away from a wood hull. The writer of the letter was asking about that.

" The guys have a point. Wooden boats do way better in a cold climate, but there are plenty of wood boats in southern waters. The analogy that appeals to me is the difference between wooden and composite tennis rackets. Both are fine in use, but if you fail to take exacting care of the wooden one when not in use, it commits suicide. The composite one just waits. Hulls are like that. Wood boats are wonderful to sail aboard, quiet and substantial-feeling, but extremely vulnerable to neglect. The question you need to answer is, how much time or money are you Willing to commit to maintenance, and how conscientious are you? If you're the kind of person who sometimes lets things slide, or if you life is so complicated that time is sometimes just unavailable, then you should stay away from a wood boat. Wood boats are never a bargain. Wood-boat ownership has to be a passionate lover affair. As for worms; Painting the bottom carefully every years is typically adequate to prevent or at least severely limit worm attacks. A more durable defense is fiberglass sheathing or coating the bottom with a coal-tar epoxy. "

I think his comments about the type of person who should buy/own a wood boat are probably pretty accurate.
__________________
Mike and Tina
Beachcomber 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 12:00 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
Chuck Gould's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dear Prudence
Vessel Model: Eagle 40
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 131
A lot of my friends are in the "wood boat" fraternity.

They "wood boat" next weekend, but first they have a few things to do to get seaworthy again...

Maybe the weekend after, or the weekend after that. I know of one couple that literally spend *years* on a DIY pace and budget restoring their bargain woodie to a state where it could be used. Life is too short, sorry,

Wood boat owners. Sadly, many of them "wood" boat, if they had everything replaced, refastened, refinished, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I admire wooden boats and respect the folks who make the enormous commitment of time and money to their ravenous appetites for time and money. It's like snow. I live where it seldom snows, and I wouldn't want to put up with the inconvenience of dealing with it on a regular basis- but it sure looks pretty up on the mountains.
Chuck Gould is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 02:21 PM   #27
Guru
 
Tad Roberts's Avatar
 
City: Flattop Islands
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blackfish
Vessel Model: custom
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by GFC View Post
One of the best replies to this question comes from the current BOAT US magazine. It's a response to a letter with a question about worms in wood hulls. This answer was provided by one of BOAT US's Tech Team, Don Casey. In the original letter the writer said there were some worm holes in the hull of a boat he was looking at. The guys on the dock said to stay away from a wood hull. The writer of the letter was asking about that.

" The guys have a point. Wooden boats do way better in a cold climate, but there are plenty of wood boats in southern waters. The analogy that appeals to me is the difference between wooden and composite tennis rackets. Both are fine in use, but if you fail to take exacting care of the wooden one when not in use, it commits suicide. The composite one just waits. Hulls are like that. Wood boats are wonderful to sail aboard, quiet and substantial-feeling, but extremely vulnerable to neglect. The question you need to answer is, how much time or money are you Willing to commit to maintenance, and how conscientious are you? If you're the kind of person who sometimes lets things slide, or if you life is so complicated that time is sometimes just unavailable, then you should stay away from a wood boat. Wood boats are never a bargain. Wood-boat ownership has to be a passionate lover affair. As for worms; Painting the bottom carefully every years is typically adequate to prevent or at least severely limit worm attacks. A more durable defense is fiberglass sheathing or coating the bottom with a coal-tar epoxy. "

I think his comments about the type of person who should buy/own a wood boat are probably pretty accurate.
Typical gross generalization and downright misinformation from the ignorant. This guy has never owned or maintained a wooden boat, or a steel or aluminum one either......An aluminum boat is "extremely vulnerable to neglect" as well. I spend a lot more time going around our marina re-tieing the lines on plastic boats and never have to deal with the wooden boats, so plastic boats are not for those who "sometimes let things slide".

His pronouncement that "wooden boats are never a bargain" is rubbish. A wooden boat with superior pedigree is just as likely (perhaps more likely due to silly prejudice) to be a bargain as any other boat in any other material.

And his information on bottom maintenance is completely wrong. We now have non-ablative (so called hard) bottom paints that (properly applied) are good for at least 3 years on a softwood hull. Sheathing with fiberglass or epoxy is an extreme measure that usually results in disaster. Far better to maintain the hull in way originally intended, with very judicious use of modern products.
Tad Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 02:33 PM   #28
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,721
TAD wrote;

"His pronouncement that "wooden boats are never a bargain" is rubbish. A wooden boat with superior pedigree is just as likely (perhaps more likely due to silly prejudice) to be a bargain as any other boat in any other material."

"Silly prejudice" abounds among boaters and on this forum. Look at all the topics we've discussed. The topic is started w prejudice and ends w prejudice. Fortunately a lot of facts and observations come to pass but I suspect that only rarely does one adopt a new opinion. "You couldn't even give me a wood boat .................. Well if you've got any nice ones I'm here. Because of the prejudice though I'll only give you cheap for it.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 04:37 PM   #29
Guru
 
Tidahapah's Avatar
 
City: Mooloolaba
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Tidahapah
Vessel Model: Bert Ellis Timber motor cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,779
Wooden boats,
OK you have to love them as you would anything that has your life in its hands.
I have been having an affair with Tidahapah since I built her in 1995.
I know her inside out, from the keel up.
Ok I have had some rot problems, mainly due to fresh water (never salt) and most probably caused by myself and the boat builder in taking a couple of corners during the build.
These problems were all on the fore deck where inserts come thru the ply and glass.

In the tropics worms can be a problem , but if hauled 12 monthly, inspected , antifoul kept up, never a problem.
I have had one worm in all this time, hot wire and creosote treatment and all done, better than a heap of blisters.

I have various friends here in Aus who have bought old timber ex prawn trawlers and most have been in VG shape even at 40 years of age and after a hard life.
Don't ever be afraid of wooden boats, but if purchasing ensure it is surveyed by a well qualified wooden boat surveyor.
Cheers
Benn
__________________
"When I die I hope my wife doesn't sell my toys for what I told her I paid for them"
Money: It's made round to go round , not flat to stack.
"Get out and do it"
Tidahapah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 05:16 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
MVNoPlans's Avatar
 
City: Olympia
Country: USA
Vessel Name: No Plans
Vessel Model: 1965 TollyCraft Voyager
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 100
I am with Tad 100%. I am rather surprised at how many forum members do not seem to understand that wood hulled boats can and do last for decades without superhuman effort. It is one thing to simply not want one; who could argue with personal choice. It is the gross misunderstanding of what is entailed in owning and enjoying a wood hulled vessel that strikes me. Perhaps it is because a fair few of the trawlers owned by folks on this forum are plastic and have water ingress problems which rot wood substrates and such that it becomes extrapolated that an all wood hull must be a nightmare. And as to Chuck Gould and the "wood" boat matter, my slip mate has a plastic boat and anecdotally, he will never spend a night on the hook because his DIY list is still too long. I "wood" not read too much into it.
MVNoPlans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 06:52 AM   #31
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
I am rather surprised at how many forum members do not seem to understand that wood hulled boats can and do last for decades without superhuman effort.

Its not a super human effort , but even a tiny bit of neglect will eventually destroy a woodie.

NO leaks ever can be tolerated for even a short period of time.

" If you're the kind of person who sometimes lets things slide, or if you life is so complicated that time is sometimes just unavailable, then you should stay away from a wood boat."

This is correct , unless of course you keep the boat at a specialist boat yard for wooden vessels , and have the yard get on the leak, INSTANTLY.

The problem is ROT.

"Dry rot " requires a certain moisture content , and a leak will cause the wood to alterniatly be wet , then dry.

This means the wood WILL pass thru the rot moisture zone , at least twice with every rain shower , or deck wash.

Maintained wood is great , but unless the boat gets excellent care it will be an expensive disaster.

Best is a "man" aboard as was done in the past,,,,,
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 07:45 AM   #32
Guru
 
swampu's Avatar


 
City: Biloxi, MS
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cajun Rose
Vessel Model: Biloxi Lugger
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,147
Plastic or wood. I've had more plastic than wood but a little crack in the glass could indicate a major issue below. Wood is the opposite. Large issues on the surface can be dealt with. How could someone not love this:

swampu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 08:35 AM   #33
Guru
 
Hendo78's Avatar
 
City: Perth
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: M/V SOLSTICE
Vessel Model: Hendo "Special"
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampu View Post
Plastic or wood. I've had more plastic than wood but a little crack in the glass could indicate a major issue below. Wood is the opposite. Large issues on the surface can be dealt with. How could someone not love this:
I'm with you swampy!
__________________
***I use and recommend ANCHOR RIGHT Anchors***
Hendo78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 09:59 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Chuck Gould's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dear Prudence
Vessel Model: Eagle 40
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 131
Properly cared for, wood can last a long, long time.

Heck, I've head of a family that boasts about a real heirloom; a 200 year old axe that remains in regular use. Of course, the handle has been replaced 4 times and the head twice, but hey- it's still the same axe. :-)

The better fiberglass builders have largely abandoned the use of balsa "cores" in modern construction. (Here's where everybody chimes in to list the exceptions to prove the rule....) A long list of failed stringers, decks, and (especially) window leaks in trawlers may be traced directly to the decay of wood members, and often these members are not visible or available for any type of preventive maintenance.

A carefully maintained wood boat is a thing of beauty. Something in which those with the temperment, the budget, and (up here at least) the preferred option of covered moorage can take pride.

Is a wood boat more work than a fiberglass boat? I wonder what we would discover if we compared the number of people who ever said, "This wood boat is too much work, I think I'll sell it and go fiberglass instead" to the number of people who have ever said, "This fiberglass boat is too much work, I think I'll get rid of it and replace it with a wooden one." Not saying that I know for sure, merely wondering what we would discover.
Chuck Gould is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 10:08 AM   #35
Guru
 
Hendo78's Avatar
 
City: Perth
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: M/V SOLSTICE
Vessel Model: Hendo "Special"
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Gould View Post
200 year old axe that remains in regular use. Of course, the handle has been replaced 4 times and the head twice, but hey- it's still the same axe. :-)
Funny you should mention this...

This statement was said about the timber boat I am rebuilding by BruceK on here. Hence now my boats name is AXE :-)
__________________
***I use and recommend ANCHOR RIGHT Anchors***
Hendo78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 10:41 AM   #36
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,721
Chuck Gould wrote;

"The better fiberglass builders have largely abandoned the use of balsa "cores" in modern construction."

I watched (night before last) most of a TV program called "Extreme Yachts". They showed some construction scenes of one or more of these ultra mega yachts and they were:

1. Laying up the underdeck covered almost entirely w bulsa core material.
2. Laying up some interior structure w a chopper gun.
3. Applying pre-fabed teak decks to a FG deck. I wish I could remember if they were screwing the teak down but can't remember. Perhaps it was a "pre-fit" as I don't recall any bedding compound either.

But it looked like business as usual to me. I must be missing something though because if I were rich I'd have several custom yachts and at least most of them would be wood.

And then Chuck says quoting an imaginary person ""This fiberglass boat is too much work, I think I'll get rid of it and replace it with a wooden one." More than likely he'd say "I think I'll sell this boat as it's too much work". The boat part v/s something else is closer to reality than "Eweew a wood boat".

PS is that how one spells the E word?
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 11:09 AM   #37
Senior Member
 
Chuck Gould's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dear Prudence
Vessel Model: Eagle 40
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 131
Here's some thorough information on a popular, modern coring that has replaced balsa for many builders

http://www.fram.nl/faq/how/Corecell_Brochure.pdf
Chuck Gould is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 11:57 AM   #38
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Gould View Post
Here's some thorough information on a popular, modern coring that has replaced balsa for many builders

http://www.fram.nl/faq/how/Corecell_Brochure.pdf
Chuck - Thank you for info/stat-link on Corecell. Following is what I emailed N. America contact.

"I read stat sheet. Corecell seems a good coring material. I'd like to know where to personally view/purchase in San Francisco area? - Thanks, Art"
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:17 PM   #39
OFB
Guru
 
OFB's Avatar
 
City: Richmond bc
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Invader no1
Vessel Model: Kishi Boat works
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 640
Core material is realy not the issue. Its the water penetration through the FRP . Kinda why hulls blister cored or not.

Vacum infused sound awsome but then so did FRP originaly so I be interested in how that works out in 40 plus years or so. Water expands contracts at different demensions than the FRP or wood.

FRP or wood , water is the issue along with lack of understanding of how to maintain either. Actualy the same can be said for metal and rock as well.

Find a good hull , machinery , and tanks, then choose the best deal based on the guts.

Boats will need to be maintained at some point at a cost.

Or not.
__________________

OFB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012