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Old 12-08-2013, 10:49 PM   #61
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Thanks for mentioning the 10 foot flag. That was my estimate as well; and the reason I've self-invoked the "Thumper Rule" on this thread.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:40 PM   #62
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Thanks NorthernSpy...
But what do you think about in general about the concept of fuel efficient Catamaran Trawler vs a more traditional Trawler Tug like your Nordic?
Any elements that would sway you to try the Catamaran Route..
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:47 AM   #63
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Quote:
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Thanks NorthernSpy...

Any elements that would sway you to try the Catamaran Route..
Affordable, available moorage and haulouts for catamarans?

No, that wouldn't even do it.

Honestly a big part of boating for me is aesthetics. I blame this on my full collection of Woodenboat Magazine. Most catamaran design seems to be divided between "more ugly" and "less ugly". A few exceptions make it to the "Hey that's kind of pretty side". These are made in Australia or New Zealand.

Mind you. This doesn't matter much to the proponents of catamarans as they are enjoying their view looking out of their large tinted windows; they could care less if it's ugly on the outside since their not the ones looking at it. The same can be said for geodesic dome houses, Christmas sweaters, and the Pontiac Aztec.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:38 AM   #64
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Northern,
That last part had me rolling. How very true..
Listen my heart is with you about the classic designs of wooden boat magazine. Restored a 48 ft Alden yawl back on east coast will dig up pics to prove it. so I can relate to your point about aesthetics. As I posted earlier in thread, the design was vision of all those designs combined, and still think the retro modern catamaran look can be pulled off albeit with some tweaks to what I have.. Thanks for the laugh and happy trawlering..
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:42 AM   #65
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Larry,
Input is always welcome. I like your ingenuity... Indeed the 52 ft platform gives lots of room to play with. Will try and fix the scale size of ensign on stern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Frankly, I like the hulls, and even though your original design is growing on me, what you said before regarding building it how you like, the plumb bows and square profile of the hulls would probably lend themselves well to a nearly any cabin design with the addition of a cheat line or two. I'm sure this kind of integral Fly-Bridge style would put you way above your weight target, but you get the idea. When I started really looking at the size of things in your mock-up, I had to back-up and realize that we're talking about a 52' boat here. That's hardly the impression left by the mock photo, particularly with the 10 ft. flag. Hope you don't mind my messing with your design to make my point.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:56 AM   #66
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Brian,
Speaking of the Indikon project and Journey catamarans, do you happen to know their latest pricing and speed range? I know Journey cats are meant to be fast and compete with the Mainecat p47 design which I think is prettiest of them all. I dont see any speed range for the indikon motor sailor or powercat, but judging by transom shape and size of engines (170-220hp) each side I venture that they are aiming for maybe low twenties?
Our MP52- Trawler was intended for what I thought was that perfect sweet spot of 10-12 and doing so on (75-120hp) each side while sipping fuel.
Prices for the Mainecat P47 and Journey 47 are both 889K I believe?
Wonder what the 40ft indikon P4 will be? All I can say you might be hard pressed to find a 52ft power/trawler cat for the 450K we are offering the Maltese MP52- Trawler for...
Don't even need to mention that the Mainecat and Maltese are only ones made in good old USA.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:37 PM   #67
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Sheer Line Beauty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post

Honestly a big part of boating for me is aesthetics. I blame this on my full collection of Woodenboat Magazine. Most catamaran design seems to be divided between "more ugly" and "less ugly". A few exceptions make it to the "Hey that's kind of pretty side".
I agree Northern Spy. I reference you back to this posting

Sheer Line Beauty
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - New US built Catamaran Trawler - Maltese52
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:28 AM   #68
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M52-although no one has mentioned it yet, I don't see how you can get to a $450K price point on a 52 ft boat. To be even marginally profitable, you have to have no more than about $300-$325K in the build. Several years ago, along with some clients, all long-time marine industry guys, we were looking at a production monohull trawler, had two, 55; and 65', designed by Bill Crealock, his last designs before he passed away. When we did the costing, no way the 55' could be even built for anything approaching $450K much less sold for that price. We partnered with an established builder in Port Townsend, WA. with years of experience in custom builds There were three major molds for the boat, hull, deck and house, and getting the molds done, plugs cut in one piece on a 5 axis router (an amazing process if you have never seen it!), female molds constructed ran close to $500K alone. Even amortizing that cost, we were looking at around $1.2M build cost for the 55' and around 1.6 for the 65'.

Are you including an electronics package for that price? An average electronics package, at cost, for a 52 footer will run around $35K. Most builders give an electronics allowance of $50-70K on new builds.
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Old 12-11-2013, 05:31 AM   #69
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Healhustler's version does it for me..! That's brilliant. But then again, he also managed to sell me on having wannabe windows on my Lotus. I reckon you missed your calling Larry. You should be in boat design…or are you already..?
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:14 PM   #70
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Quote:
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Healhustler's version does it for me..! That's brilliant. But then again, he also managed to sell me on having wannabe windows on my Lotus. I reckon you missed your calling Larry. You should be in boat design…or are you already..?
It does look good but is the scale right ?
I suspect the cabin drawn may be a bit lower than it would need to be in reality.
Another issue is I suspect the light performance orientated hulls of the maltese52 possibly wouldn't be suited to carry the extra weight that this style of cabin would attract.

Add- I just stretched the cabin up so as to match (approx) the walk in cabin height of the original box and it looks arguably better again.
You can see the cut and lift on the crane.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:26 PM   #71
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THD,
Would be happy to prove you wrong. This pricing is valid and plausible despite your thoughts. I would be happy to discuss the electronic package we are offering (choice of Simrad, Navico, or Raymarine).
When you are doing semi-custom builds like the Maltese without lots of female tooling and molds (which I agree add to cost of production but speeds it along) your pricing can be more competitive since you don't have to spread the costs of tooling into your pricing. Sure its more labor, but plenty of American workers willing to work hard and proud of their craft. If we built one or two boats a year, would keep us happy and employed. Or maybe you would prefer I outsource yet one more job and project overseas?? and expect higher profits as result. No thank you, I am an American and proud one too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by THD View Post
M52-although no one has mentioned it yet, I don't see how you can get to a $450K price point on a 52 ft boat. To be even marginally profitable, you have to have no more than about $300-$325K in the build. Several years ago, along with some clients, all long-time marine industry guys, we were looking at a production monohull trawler, had two, 55; and 65', designed by Bill Crealock, his last designs before he passed away. When we did the costing, no way the 55' could be even built for anything approaching $450K much less sold for that price. We partnered with an established builder in Port Townsend, WA. with years of experience in custom builds There were three major molds for the boat, hull, deck and house, and getting the molds done, plugs cut in one piece on a 5 axis router (an amazing process if you have never seen it!), female molds constructed ran close to $500K alone. Even amortizing that cost, we were looking at around $1.2M build cost for the 55' and around 1.6 for the 65'.

Are you including an electronics package for that price? An average electronics package, at cost, for a 52 footer will run around $35K. Most builders give an electronics allowance of $50-70K on new builds.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:45 PM   #72
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I get that when an order is secured, the boat you promote will be proudly custom built in America. I`m intrigued, being neither American or Maltese, why name it after a Mediterranean country?
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:04 AM   #73
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Bruce,

The boat was in fact 100% built in US. Happy to promote that as any US builder should be.

As for name It's kinda cheesy, But i will share name rational..

1. I liked the cross reference to an actual cat breed? and ring of name
2. I like the story of that actual cat breed... No one really knows origin of the Maltese cat breed. Supposed a mix of different breeds from unknown pedigree backgrounds, but effectively out came a beautiful and well tempered breed. Sort of a mystery to it...Kinda like the Maltese 52 project. The pedigree of all the characters involved is solid but it remains a delightful mystery how it all unfolded.
3. The appropriate web addresses and usernames were available

I told you it was silly.
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:46 AM   #74
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M52-I was not suggesting that you outsource. We did a lot of market research and found that there is a market for a US built vessel. There are folks willing to pay some level of premium for a US-built vessel. The cost difference between building in Taiwan and the US has dropped significantly over the last 10 years as the industry and infrastructure has built up in Taiwan. 10 years ago, the cost differential was in the neighborhood of 40%, it has dropped to well below 15% now. The problem now is twofold (1) in the US in many traditional boat building areas there is no longer the infrastructure and skilled workforce necessary and (2) China. Many boats formerly built in Taiwan are now being built in China even they do not have the infrastructure, the skilled workforce or the real concept of a luxury yacht quite yet. They are working on it in a typical Chinese fashion, the government throws tons of money at it and throw tons of people at it. they are catching up fast. The cost differential with the PRC is back to the old Taiwan levels of 35-40%.

If you can build the boat, find the right market and make a profit on it, more power to you. You will look back with a great deal of pride one day!
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:19 AM   #75
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THD,
Appreciate your comment and thanks for the insightful figures on margins and the history of foreign builds. Indeed there is still big savings in outsourcing to China at moment and Ive been approached by few people suggesting to go that route and wanting to get involved with launching the project over there. Perhaps its foolish not to consider the option but I feel that with lower volume we would be better served to build here where jobs are scarce and people need the work. Only time will tell.
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:17 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parmenter View Post
It does look good but is the scale right ?
I suspect the cabin drawn may be a bit lower than it would need to be in reality.
Another issue is I suspect the light performance orientated hulls of the maltese52 possibly wouldn't be suited to carry the extra weight that this style of cabin would attract.

Add- I just stretched the cabin up so as to match (approx) the walk in cabin height of the original box and it looks arguably better again.
You can see the cut and lift on the crane.
Yep. That definitely works for me.
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:34 PM   #77
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Maltese. Your new sketches are looking good.

Regarding building in the USA vs. offshore - we took the same path you're taking with our Florida Bay Coasters. Built in the USA. 2 or 3 custom built (no molds) per year. Commercial steel exterior finish with yacht interiors. Lasted for 10 boats till the recession, luxury tax AND Hurricane Andrew all hit the same year.

My latest project, island Pilot, is built in Zhuhai City PRC where there is excellent infrastructure AND skilled craftsmen who DO know what a luxury yacht is all about. We're across the street from Jet Tern. (Journey and Selene), next door to a mega yacht builder and not too far from Choey Lee and Sea Horse (Diesel Duck ). There is no place in the US that I know of with the same condone ration of yacht builders.

Both owning your own ship yard and having an overseas partner has it's pluses and minuses - it's a matter of picking which works best for your prospect and mad market.

I am currently designing a smaller project that lends itself to made in USA.
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #78
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Wanted to share quick sketch up of MP52-Trawler Cabinhouse Styling we are planning on going with... Plenty of ways to trick the eye with paint, trim, and Railings.....Thoughts? Comments?

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