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Old 12-07-2013, 07:06 PM   #41
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I like the middle one,see I can be swayed
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:23 PM   #42
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Indeed,
Now that I've wiped my tears away and fired the design dept, we can be friends again.
So now we know what makes your heart tick. At least I think you can see the vision Im going for with the MP52-Trawler concept.?
Like your dream boat, we were shooting for a 10-12 knot sweet spot and though a cat suffers from range issues with fuel capacity its an easier and lighter boat for configuring with sail assist.
Like the FPB, I plan on having an aft mast for electronics and creating a hoist point for your water toys.
The client would have a choice low maintenance trim & railings or Nice glossy varnished teak ones.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:42 PM   #43
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perhaps if you were to post a couple of different looks to your initial design,you might get more positive feedback.While there are many people here who have extensive experience in the design of boats,there are many of us that are just boaters,not naval architects.You have made some comments about mast options,trim and railings.If you were to present a more enhanced rendering,then small tweaking commentaries would be more likely to occur,but as it stands now,you seem to be looking for much more than that.Good luck,and I am looking forward to seeing your design advance to its final product.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:49 PM   #44
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Tin,
Our other design geared for the sailing model might have been more your style. As for ultra detailed renderings and models, it gets really pricey real fast, better put the money towards the build sometimes but a lot of people spend their budgets on design fees and renders and consultations that their dream designs never see the light of day. I guess I took more of a build it and they will come bootstrap approach. Thanks for the comments.
The other Cabin Style offered:
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Not as mean looking in my opinion... better suited to our sailing model?
your thoughts??
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:00 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltese52 View Post
Tin,
As for ultra detailed renderings and models, it gets really pricey real fast
Maybe more detailed Vs ultra detailed would be good.

Have you tried https://www.odesk.com/ to save some dollars?
A skilled designer from India perhaps?
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:20 PM   #46
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Parmenter,

From my experience and having seen it happen. Its easy to blow big bucks $$ and lots of time designing things on paper and then to have someone somewhere not like it or never have them built. Like I said I had a vision combining all those designs earlier and went with it. Its not complete hence the difficulty in seeing the visioned result.
We would rather have a customer directly involved and present them with options A or B with maybe a tweak or two. That in my opinion is the only way you can bring a 52 ft cat trawler to market for 450K. What do you think about the other configuration? In my opinion its not mean looking enough for a trawler, but I won't argue with a customer...
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:45 AM   #47
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Sheer Line and Beauty

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Originally Posted by Maltese52 View Post
Now which one of those vessel designs has the most visual appeal?? ...likey the one with the best sheer line?

Here is a posting I made on another forum that was discussing 'beautiful multihulls'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
I'm glad you brought up this old term that was often applied to describe a number of the early multihull designs ….Prout Cherokee, Catalac, etc. Its true there were a lot of ugly multihulls in those early days, particularly in the shorter models where it became the need to put a lot of accommodations into a short vessel (and of course there were not that many larger multihulls being built).

This ugliness contributed to the slow acceptance of the new multihulls.

When I was first getting into sailing boats most were monohulls, and there were clearly very pretty ones, and then utilitarian ones. I saw the morphing of the classic looking monohull designs into what I described as floating clorox bottles (beautiful wooden classics into fiberglass plastic utilitarian vessels that maximized interior volume in ever shorter designs) .

I wrote a reply to a magazine article a number of years ago,
Just finished reading your article about Ray Hunt in the June issue of Soundings, I wanted to write and let you know how much I truly enjoyed the article.


You captured not only the factual history, but more importantly, some of the essence of being involved with yachts and yacht design itself….. “the measure of total understanding of the nature of a boat.”


And most importantly, you included the oft forgotten element, the sheer line. What a terribly important factor!! Romantically stated, but oh so true, “it is simply her sheer … sheer beauty that is. She enters the harbor like a beautiful woman entering a room. Her sheer is the line we try to get right when we doodle boats.” So many of today’s boats lack this beauty, and correspondingly, some of the essence of yesteryear’s yachting.


Your article brought some of that feeling back to me…some of that feeling that first inspired me to want to learn of sailing yachts and their design ….that had me (virtually a non-sailor at the time) putting together a scrapbook of designs, both good and poor, for future reference.


Now it so happens that I got quite heavily involved with multihull craft because here is where free thought and innovation abounded, and here it is even tougher to create a pretty sheer line.

Probably a couple of the best examples I might reference would be Peter Wormwood’s 60 ‘Indigo’ design, and a few of Peter Spronk’s cats. With Spronk’s designs, you would have to invoke your French observation, “you must suffer to be beautiful.”

When I look thru a number of the vessels I see pictured in this subject thread I don't see any big number of “beautiful multihulls”, ...perhaps utilitarian ones....

Here are a few nice looking designs I would reference.


Go her to see those photo examples....


Beautiful multihulls - Page 10 - Multihulls4us Forums

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Old 12-08-2013, 11:13 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltese52 View Post
Parmenter,

From my experience and having seen it happen. Its easy to blow big bucks $$ and lots of time designing things on paper and then to have someone somewhere not like it or never have them built. Like I said I had a vision combining all those designs earlier and went with it. Its not complete hence the difficulty in seeing the visioned result.
We would rather have a customer directly involved and present them with options A or B with maybe a tweak or two. That in my opinion is the only way you can bring a 52 ft cat trawler to market for 450K. What do you think about the other configuration? In my opinion its not mean looking enough for a trawler, but I won't argue with a customer...
Maltese Catamarans MP52-Trawler
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Pic # 2 looks much better!..

In the current design trend on boats the flat boxy designs still have camber to allow water run off.. pooling water on the cabin top is a bad thing. Four of the five pics of newer designed boats I previously posted have the square angle vs. rounded classic type design.

Good luck on your venture!

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:01 PM   #49
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Proper Preparation, Market Studies

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Sorry Gang,
didn't see the amount of posts till now. I appreciate the comments about the MP52-Trawler (the good and bad ones) and Brian I do know some of the other designs out there like the Indikon project. They seem to be going about things the standard industry way, that is design, market, sell, then Build.
Being a young but long time member of the marine industry, I have seen many fortunes spent on trying to introduce new designs that never go anywhere and didn't want to fall casualty to that. So I took the build it and they will come approach (hopefully)
Personally I think you guys should have spent some more time in preparation for bringing out a new design,....even if it were a bare effort to solicit some comments & responses from the boating public as on some of the forums.
Too many people think they have the greatest design vessels that will set the world on fire.

I actually think the Indikon guys have the correct approach in taking a model and literature out to the various boat shows. Now the question is will they really LISTEN to their feedback??

(BUT, I think they are so intent on going forward with their project they will go ahead and commit many thousands of $ dollars for design and tooling, and end up like the Journey catamaran guys who I believe may have lost control of their own project to the Chinese building yard?)


This is a portion of the story from the Journey Cat fellows.
Quote:
In 2008 we were working with several clients that were all searching for a catamaran with good performance and classic aesthetics. Surprisingly we found that there was nothing in the marketplace that addressed these criteria. After much research and input from current and past customers a preliminary plan was written and presented to our clients and this led to a commitment from one client to build a boat.


Thus the Journey forth began.


Neil Riley, our in-house catamaran specialist, started searching the web for boats, designers, and builders. Slowly our boat started to take shape. Our experience told us there was no long-range production cruising catamarans on the market and the custom-built ones were extremely expensive. This is when we came across “Water Wizards” – a custom-designed and -built 50-foot catamaran with wave-piercing bows built to cruise in the ocean at 30 knots and film sailboat races. This design was not only sea-worthy and stable but extremely fuel-efficient – an eco-friendly platform. It was time to contact the designer.


We then met with Tim Kernan, NA, (company information is in the appendices). We had two major design criteria:
  1. We wanted a long-range, very fuel-efficient cruising catamaran and
  2. We did not want it to look like most other catamarans, boxy and square.
As you can see, we got just what we wanted. We then contracted Kernan Design to complete the boat drawings, so we would be able to present them to builders for the purpose of obtaining a quote for construction costs.


Since plans were being drawn, it was time to find a builder and conduct more research. We found numerous qualified and receptive builders in the US, as the boating market was in a depression. However, the cost for them to produce the boat would place her well above our targeted market price.


Hence, we turned overseas. Again, with a depressed, US boat market we figured we could find some eager builders and we did. We were preparing packages to send to builders in order to obtain quotes for the tooling and building costs when we had a stroke of good fortune. While contacting a model builder in Hong Kong to get a quote, we discovered his consulting service for Westerners in China.
He is William Baycroft of Yacht Consultants, Asia (particulars in appendix). As we discussed needs for a model to display at boat shows, we informed him of our project. He then offered his services, which we gladly accepted. Having a lifetime of experience building boats and many years doing so in China, he was the perfect person to help find a builder.


Neil made numerous trips to China to visit different builders with Mr. Baycroft. We finally settled on one: Jet Tern Marine, the builder of Selene Ocean Trawlers. Not only was the owner, Howard Chen, very enthusiastic about the project, he was sure he could sell a fair number of the 47-foot Journeys in China plus develop a larger version or two.


Backing up a bit, while all of the above was working, we started marketing the boat in January of 2010. We had done a lot of research as to where we should spend our marketing dollars and where to introduce the boat. We decided to go with PassageMaker magazine, as their reputation in the long-range trawler market was superb. They also sponsor numerous Trawler Fests and boat shows for only trawlers across the country. One other reason was that the builder of the 47-foot Maine Cat had invested his marketing dollars in the magazine and sold 6+ boats over a 6-month period.


By attending numerous Trawler Fests (in Ft. Lauderdale, San Diego and Anacortes) with our model, we received high praise for the project and learned a lot about what a buyer for this boat wanted. This helped us refine the boat and equipment she would include.
Interesting story on the side. Years ago I once sold a small catamaran to a Dutch fellow who had come to represent the Nike brand of shoes in a considerable territory here on the East Coast of the USA. He had come out of a successful launch of a number of new Nike stores in Europe. He told me of their pre-marketing strategy of finding good store location in Europe. They had commissioned numerous studies, but in the end the most successful tool was getting a hold of the studies that MacDonalds had commissioned in locating their stores. Nike of Europe just followed their strategy.


Picking a vessel design for today's market in the USA has got to be a difficult task, especially considering the depressed market for new boats, the cost of building new boats, and the surplus of used ones at low prices,....and the challenges of financing, etc.,....not a pretty picture to try and market a good size multihull vessel into that cost a half million $ plus.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:08 PM   #50
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Brian. Great, informative post. Given the resources and the mass market product such as Nike and McDonalds, spending time and money on marketing research makes so much sense.

Given the low volume and emotional nature of the yacht business, my feeling is most smaller builders use their own intuition as to the design of new models.

I have always designed boats for myself thinking that if I like it some others just might like it , too. Hopefully enough to sustain a business.

I support Maltese in his philosophy: If he builds it, they will come. If the performance is exceptional (and the hulls look light it just might be) he will sell boats. Retiring Baby Boomers (The bulk of the trawler market), are looking for economical to operate cruising yachts. They have the time to cruise slowly and to wait out the weather. But don't enjoy excessive stops to the fuel dock.

My feeling is that maltese's 52 footer will have comparable performance numbers to a 30 foot tug-style yacht at both. 8 knots and 12 knots. All in a boat 70% longer with significant more living space AND a target price of. 50 % more.

Our DSe 12m has NOT found a market - or Island Pilots have. My feeling is had the DSe performed as Maltese is predicting (a faster cruise of 12 knots using minimal HP), we would have sold boats. Having missed our weight estimates significantly by installing a high-end trawlersque interior , we have just too much weight to get past 9 knots. She does cruise economically at 6 knots and ultra economically at 4 knots (0 GPH) , she just doesn't go fast enough for the prospective buyers of $600 k yachts.

Targeting $450k opens up a much larger prospective market for the 52. Plus, it appears that the house is built up from flat panels so it can be configured in a variety of styles without resorting to female molds (maybe using a constant camber table for cabin top).

I find that attempting to pre-sell a new model is difficult at best using renderings and scale models at boat shows , the idea of building a full size model that can be seen at shows and written up in the boat mags with the effort. It is a big gamble, especially if tooling is done, but much better chance of success.

Keep it up, Maltese!
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:40 PM   #51
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Can you imagine what's going to happen to that knife edged beautiful bow when it plows into a log in SE AK?

I'm not interested in cats that aren't small boats. In big quartering seas I'd always be worried about the two hulls parting company. I don't really dislike the cabin lines and think it may even look better w/o the slight slant to the fwd window. I bought a boat that's a little like a cheese box on a raft but subtle deviations from perfectly rectangular like a tad bit of tumblehome. Can you imagine how ugly my Willard would look if her cabin sides were perfectly vertical and the roof was flat? Only small changes make huge differences in aesthetics.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:05 PM   #52
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Reverse Bows on a Powercat?

I was going to bring up that bow subject as well. What use is there for reverse bows on a powercat??

They will be subject to damage, they will offer no deck area to go fwd on when docking etc. They don't make sense on a power vessel that is not going to have its bows pressed down into a seaway by the sailing rig. They are more difficult to construct in glass,.....I'm sure I could come up with a few more negatives....sorry for pouring cold water on this idea.

It's a fad!...that won't last that long.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:15 PM   #53
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This will have squatting problems under power I think.



Shouldnt it be more reversed, flattened and squared up in the bum, like this but even squarer?

No comment to this??
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:30 PM   #54
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Build Upon Another Design,...

I guess I can understand the idea of coming out with a totally NEW design.

But I often wonder why more designers don't think of 'building onto an existing design' that might be improved a little from the original. Yes often that is left for the original folks to do, but they may not take up the task for various reasons.

Case in point for a power multihull. I personally liked the looks of the Lagoon 43 powercat. To me it had a bit of a certain look to it that reminded me of older classic design,...can't recall what it was. I think part of it was her sheer line and that dark hull. Whatever it looked rather appealing, and it sold OK.

But it had a few problems:
1) Galley was to small for any lengthy cruising (and that was a surprise being a French design)

2) The rear berth was not 'walkaround'

3) ...couple of other 'problems', but won't address them now.

Overall a nice design. I often thought that she was a prime canadate for 'new versions'....perhaps a little bigger
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:26 PM   #55
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Was out teaching a buddy how to drive his new (older) Ocean Alexander 54 so sorry for late reply, don't ask about the fuel bill...

Thanks for your supporting comments RJ and Many, happy to answer the other questions as well. The reverse bows are designed to eliminate pitching and work real well in certain wave patterns. Plus the last 2.5 ft of the bows are solid foam crash bows both for safety and ease of build. Exactly the way Gunboat and CW cats do it. I don't think reverse bows are a fad that is going away anytime soon based on seeing market trends for the next few years.

Which brings me to some points brought up about fuel efficiency and growing desire for designs that deliver it. That is what we aimed to provide with the Maltese MP52-Trawler. As for the Transom and Stern Design you asked about. Its designed for efficiency at the 10-12 knot sweet spot. I agree that if you were interested in cruising at closer to 20kts the current design would have some squat issues. Kurt Hughes and Nigel Irens have excellent PDF articles on the subject of multihulls and the fuel efficient speeds they offer. Be happy to attach those files once I figure out how to do it.

And sure I could have spent years developing the concept and refining it... and spending tons of cash on reports and studies... but sometimes you have to grab life by the horns and go for it. All the legends of boat design that I look up to have excelled by taking risks at some point or another. Ive been in the marine industry for long time considering my age (34) and know what is out there and what they cost. I guess the only reason to create something like the Maltese was because I didn't see that it existed or if it did it was out of my league price wise. I would like to think at $450K Motor Away pricing, I bring a lot to the table.? but only time will tell. Appreciate the exchange as always...

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Old 12-08-2013, 07:41 PM   #56
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Interesting Reads about the subjects being discussed: Fuel Efficient Multihull

http://www.hiswasymp...posium-2004.pdf
http://multihulldesigns.com/pdf/powercatslt.pdf
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:17 PM   #57
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Interesting read. It would be a lot more informative w/o all the digs aimed at big corporate design offices.

How about some info on length/beam ratios, under water sections, HP/speed curves?

Reads too much as a rant rather than a serious white paper.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:28 PM   #58
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I guess my Cabinhouse vision works a lot better for Megayachts... I doubt anyone called this guys Cabinhouse design ugly
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:32 PM   #59
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Certainly if you didn't mind crawling on your hands and knees in the bridge deck salon we could have went low profile like this... Could even save some additional weight..
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But we went with this...
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:28 PM   #60
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Frankly, I like the hulls, and even though your original design is growing on me, what you said before regarding building it how you like, the plumb bows and square profile of the hulls would probably lend themselves well to a nearly any cabin design with the addition of a cheat line or two. I'm sure this kind of integral Fly-Bridge style would put you way above your weight target, but you get the idea. When I started really looking at the size of things in your mock-up, I had to back-up and realize that we're talking about a 52' boat here. That's hardly the impression left by the mock photo, particularly with the 10 ft. flag. Hope you don't mind my messing with your design to make my point.
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