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Old 01-26-2015, 10:38 AM   #61
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There has been one boat builder who has looked for new methods and materials. I hate to give him credit but Irwin Jacobs with Carver, Marquis, Larson, Triumph. Former Genmar. Not saying this is they type huge step Art is talking about. But on Larson, he uses what they've labeled VEC, as a stronger, lighter, higher quality construction. When things were slow they also used it in the Marquis factory to build windmills. You can see more at Vectechnology.com. Is it better, a step forward? Well, Larson would argue yet and Glastron would argue no. It is definitely a less expensive way to build. Ultimately he's betting that when Larson, Triumph, Marquis, and Carver are either gone or he no longer owns them, VEC will be his huge moneymaker and I'd be pretty sure he owns it separately and just licenses to Larson.


Another one of his experiments was Triumph. They have a molded polymer hull named Roplene. "Indestructible" hulls. Now they actually do make excellent utility boats as you can beat and bang them in ways that would destroy fiberglass. They do have some issues however. With the prevalence of dry storage, people found out that it was not best to leave them sitting on racks for long times (or on some trailers) as the rack would impact the bottom and alter the boat.

How many of you remember years ago small PVC boats? They may still be around. But for an entry little fishing boat they were all made in one piece, just molded PVC. Were supposed to be a breakthrough for ponds and small lakes.
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Old 01-26-2015, 10:38 AM   #62
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Art

I just googled both of these terms and came up with nothing.

Are you inventing new words or is there something I can google and learn about.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:13 AM   #63
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Art

I just googled both of these terms and came up with nothing.

Are you inventing new words or is there something I can google and learn about.
Art is inventing new words....I bet....he is an inventor so makes sense.

I've only known one inventor in my life. Of all things he invented modifications and attachments to industrial equipment. People trying to accomplish specific tasks more efficiently but current equipment didn't have a way so he'd invent something to meet their needs. Not flashy nor headline stuff, but very helpful and important to a lot of manufacturers. He was one you'd say "there should be a way" to and he'd find that way. Most industrial engineers could envision it part way but not figure out a solution.

I think those involved with invention like Art are able to just see the world differently. I see the boat as it is. He sees it as he envisions it could be.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:16 AM   #64
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Would it be a different boat? Yes, I'd like to think an evolved boat. Probably a better all around boat, able to achieve the same performance with less horsepower or achieve better performance......

I'd personally consider switching engine manufacturers and at their volume I'd only have one. I have a personal problem with CAT on such a boat, primarily with the noise factor. ............

Are you a production or custom builder? ............

Instead of evolving the Heritage line they've just built the Aleutian line. Volume drops and their response is adding more models each time. ...........

And the relevance to this thread is that if we don't have some builders innovate and do some new things, find some spark, then the boat we're discussing won't be available.
I have watched the GB line over the years with much interest. It's a boat (Heritage line) that I'd be happy with but not at the price GB demands. For that same money, I can buy numerous other brands that I'd be ecstatic with. Unless something drastically changes with GB, I think we're looking at a dinosaur.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:30 AM   #65
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I have watched the GB line over the years with much interest. It's a boat (Heritage line) that I'd be happy with but not at the price GB demands. For that same money, I can buy numerous other brands that I'd be ecstatic with. Unless something drastically changes with GB, I think we're looking at a dinosaur.
So mention those other brands who still build something similar to a Heritage model that you'd choose. And if you know, note where they would fall short of the GB, if at all.

I'll tell you someone to watch out for, now that they have US manufacturing and access to a US dealer network. That is Beneteau.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:53 AM   #66
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So mention those other brands who still build something similar to a Heritage model that you'd choose.......Integrity, Solo, Clipper, Halvorsen, Helmsman, North Pacific, etc.

I'll tell you someone to watch out for, now that they have US manufacturing and access to a US dealer network. That is Beneteau. I was aboard a Beneteau Fast Trawler 44 over the week end and was disappointed. The deck creaked under my feet and the joinery was really "vanilla."
All I'm trying to point out is that GB has lived off it's reputation for many years. There are many other choices out there that are wonderful coastal cruisers that are significantly less money.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:53 AM   #67
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manyboats posts a nice PIX below showing a FD hull at about max speed. Notice the large stern wave and depressed water midships. You cant see it but there should be a wave forward. That wavelength the same as hull length is what limits speed. To go faster it would have to climb over the bow wave.
PS that in not a very efficient speed because of all the wave making despite the smooth stern water flow.


Yes and also playing a very important part in the act is the convex bottom aft presenting a curve for the water moving aft. It just flows along until the speed reaches or exceeds hull speed. Then the curved aft section tends to pull the water up (toward the surface) and the reaction to this is that the stern is pulled down. So when the FD hull exceeds hull speed not only is the bow advancing on the bow wave trying to rise up and over it the stern is making things very difficult in that endeavor as the stern is being pulled or sucked down. So it never happens. Actually some very unusual hulls can overcome this with extremely high aspect ratios (long and narrow) kinda like my 18' canoe w a small transom for an OB.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:57 AM   #68
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All I'm trying to point out is that GB has lived off it's reputation for many years. There are many other choices out there that are wonderful coastal cruisers that are significantly less money.
I agree with you on their mistakes. As to the wonderful coastal cruisers you mention none of them have made significant inroads into the US market yet. Time will tell.

As to Beneteau I've heard good and bad, many very happy owners though. And the US factory and engineers might help them clean up some of the issues.
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Old 01-26-2015, 12:23 PM   #69
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Manyboats you stated in#10: 95% of the boats here are semi-disp types. How do you know this?

I don't.
Firstly and most importantly is that my knowledge and opinions are forever evolving and what I thought I knew yesterday may likely change and many times at that. I remember some of the things I used to say on TF 5 years ago I wouldn't post today. But of course everything I post I believe to be true.

Also I'm not intimate with the shapes of all the hulls represented here or in other boats known as trawlers.

And of course more facts and opinions consumed on TF and elsewhere will bring this hull typing into better focus as we move along. Good weather and bad weather may be viewed by many as sunny or cloudy. But it's not that simple of course ... nor is hull typing. I like to classify the hulls into 4 types .. not three. FD, SP, SD and planing in that order. Semi means "partly" and I personally consider partly to be less than half. But there are many hull types represented here on TF that IMO are easy to classify but many others seem impossible. They just don't fit established definitions or my own opinion.

Also this issue has been discussed on BoatDesign.net and there is argument there among the many NAs and many w far less knowledge (such as myself) so the questions are (to some degree) as much opinion as fact wherever one goes in the boating world.
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Old 01-26-2015, 12:27 PM   #70
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I don't.
Firstly and most importantly is that my knowledge and opinions are forever evolving and what I thought I knew yesterday may likely change and many times at that. I remember some of the things I used to say on TF 5 years ago I wouldn't post today. But of course everything I post I believe to be true.
Damn good statement and well said.
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Old 01-26-2015, 12:39 PM   #71
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I don't.
Firstly and most importantly is that my knowledge and opinions are forever evolving and what I thought I knew yesterday may likely change and many times at that. I remember some of the things I used to say on TF 5 years ago I wouldn't post today. But of course everything I post I believe to be true.

Also I'm not intimate with the shapes of all the hulls represented here or in other boats known as trawlers.

And of course more facts and opinions consumed on TF and elsewhere will bring this hull typing into better focus as we move along. Good weather and bad weather may be viewed by many as sunny or cloudy. But it's not that simple of course ... nor is hull typing. I like to classify the hulls into 4 types .. not three. FD, SP, SD and planing in that order. Semi means "partly" and I personally consider partly to be less than half. But there are many hull types represented here on TF that IMO are easy to classify but many others seem impossible. They just don't fit established definitions or my own opinion.

Also this issue has been discussed on BoatDesign.net and there is argument there among the many NAs and many w far less knowledge (such as myself) so the questions are (to some degree) as much opinion as fact wherever one goes in the boating world.
I certainly agree with that.

But i don't understand your logic on the 4th type. In that, if it isnt a full displacement, as you have defined very well, and it's not a planing hull, then it is somewhere in between, thus a semi planing or semi displacement, though I agree with Marin, that they should really be called semi planing. for many of the reason you have described so well.

When I first started my boat education and search, I had countless dead ends in that pretty much by the time I had read Passagemaking Under Power I understood the differnt hull designs and knew we needed FD,

But that's where i ran down a lot of dead ends.

So many boats are described in some venue or another as full displacement, but they really are not.

So my the time the dust settled (or was that snow falling?) I realized just how few FD boats there are out there.
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Old 01-26-2015, 01:28 PM   #72
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Art

I just googled both of these terms and came up with nothing.

Are you inventing new words or is there something I can google and learn about.
CompFlo™ [CF] material and VibeInj™ [VI] build-out process both belong to me, Kevin.

I've not let them into public view on a general basis... yet. Even Google cannot uncover trade secrets. Thought it worth mentioning on TF seeing as there is such need for reinvigorating the pleasure boating industry. Currently my time is taken up on other new-product business matters. I may reveal what I have for boat building in the future. If an organization with means would like to confidentially discuss beforehand... that might work too!

Cheers! - Art
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Old 01-26-2015, 01:45 PM   #73
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CompFlo™ [CF] material and VibeInj™ [VI] build-out process both belong to me, Kevin.

I've not let them into public view on a general basis... yet. Even Google cannot uncover trade secrets. Thought it worth mentioning on TF seeing as there is such need for reinvigorating the pleasure boating industry. Currently my time is taken up on other new-product business matters. I may reveal what I have for boat building in the future. If an organization with means would like to confidentially discuss beforehand... that might work too!

Cheers! - Art
All I can say is I hope the best for your idea.

Its guys like you with that inventing spirit that bring on innovation!
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Old 01-26-2015, 02:29 PM   #74
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The so-called Heritage line of GBs is, of course, dead and has been for some years now. The only heritage GB still in production is the GB52. The GB47 and the GB41 look like heritage boats but they aren't. They are much faster with totally different hull designs (underwater). The GB41 is a pod-drive boat.

If by cored decks and bridge we mean a fiberglass-marine ply-fiberglass sandwich, American Marine/Grand Banks has used this method since day one of their fiberglass boats. A lot of people (including me when we first got our boat) believe that GBs have solid fiberglass decks. They don't. Solid fiberglass hulls, yes. But not the decks.

Personnally, I think what's changed is the boat-buying market, and this is damaging GB and other similar makers more than their designs andn processes. The split between the very wealthy and the so-called middle class is getting wider every day. The wealthy class, the ones who in the past would have bought high-end production boats like GBs, has now become wealthy enough that a GB or even an Aleutian is not what they want anymore. They want big, custom, and ego-stroking. So the wealthy boat-buying class has become the very wealthy boat-buying class, and production boats of any sort are not what the want anymore.

Meanwhile, the upper end of the middle-class is shrinking. They still want boats, but upper-end production boats like GBs are rapidly moving out of the affordability range for them. So they are turning to the less-expensive boats or used boats.

This leaves makers like GB hanging in the gap as their customer base dwindles.

Regarding 3D printing, Airbus is already talking about the day when airplanle fuselsages are made using 3D printing. And since Boeing and Airbus are virtually the same company when it comes to how we do things, I'm sure we are looking into it, too. We already use 3D printing to make a lot of components for our current planes.

And speaking of 3D printing, we just had an application on our boat that has turned out extremely successfully. Our 1973 boat has Levalor venetian blinds in the windows. We much prefer blinds to curtains, so finding that the boat had blinds when we saw it for the first time was great.

To keep them from swinging when they are down, the bottom bar of each blind has a plastic fitting at each end that clips into a metal bracket screwed to the lower window trim. This system works great, but these fittings over the decades grew brittle and began to crack. The previous owner and us wound tape around them to keep them in place but it was a losing battle. And the fittings have not been available from Levalor for ages.

I was pondering making new fittings from wood and a short length of metal rod but hadn't done anything about it.

Then the college-age son of the videographer I use on a lot of my shoots decided he wanted to build a 3D printer. So he did, from scratch. He spent last summer building it (his parents thought this project would be far more beneficial to his ultimate career than a summer job stocking shelves or working in a fast food joint so they let him live at home expense-free last summer). And his printer works.

So more on a whim than anything else, I suggested that perhaps he might be interested in making the venetial blind clips we needed on his printer. He said, sure, he'd give it a shot. He's back in college now (he's also been given a paid internship at one of the area's fastest up-and-coming 3D printing companies) but he had time over the Christmas break to work up our part. We took the prototype to the boat yesterday and it works perfectly.

We need 22 of them so he's going to print us up 30 fittings and our long-standing problem will be solved forever.
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Old 01-26-2015, 02:39 PM   #75
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If by cored decks and bridge we mean a fiberglass-marine ply-fiberglass sandwich, American Marine/Grand Banks has used this method since day one of their fiberglass boats. A lot of people (including me when we first got our boat) believe that GBs have solid fiberglass decks. They don't. Solid fiberglass hulls, yes. But not the decks.

Regarding 3D printing, Airbus is already talking about the day when airplanle fuselsages are made using 3D printing. And since Boeing and Airbus are virtually the same company when it comes to how we do things, I'm sure we are looking into it, too. We already use 3D printing to make a lot of components for our planes.

And speaking of 3D printing, we just had an application on our boat that has turned out extremely successfully. Our 1973 boat has Levalor venetian blinds in the windows. We much prefer blinds to curtains, so finding the boat had blinds when we saw it for the first time was great.

To keep them from swinging when they are down, the bottom bar of each blind has a plastic fitting tha clips into a metal bracket screwed to the lower window trim. This system works great, but these fittings over the decades grew brittle and began to crack. The previous owner and us wound tape around them to keep them in place but it was a losing battle. And the fittings have not been available from Levalor for ages.

I was pondering making new fittings from wood and a short length of metal rod but hadn't done anything about it.

Then the college-age son of the videographer I use on a lot of my shoots decided he wanted to build a 3D printer. So he did, from scratch. He spent last summer building it (his parents thought this project would be far more beneficial to his ultimate career than a summer job stocking shelves or working in a fast food joint so they let him live at home expense-free last summer). And his printer works.

So more on a whim than anything else, I suggested that perhaps he might be interested in making the venetial blind clips we needed on his printer. He said, sure, he'd give it a shot. He's back in college now (he's also been given a paid internship at one of the area's fasted up-and-coming 3D printing companies) but he had time over the Christmas break to work up our part. We took the prototype to the boat yesterday and it works perfectly.

We need 22 of them so he's going to print us up 30 fittings and our long-standing problem will be solved forever.
Smart boy!... Smart parents! Smart move on your part too!!
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Old 01-26-2015, 04:03 PM   #76
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I'll tell you someone to watch out for, now that they have US manufacturing and access to a US dealer network. That is Beneteau.
We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at.

One of our favorites was a Grand Banks Europa 42'.
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Old 01-26-2015, 04:36 PM   #77
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We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at..
Thanks for writing what I didn't have the guts to write. (It did feel cheap & flimsy. )
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Old 01-26-2015, 04:41 PM   #78
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I have no doubt of the many differences between the Heritage 42 and the Beneteau Swift 44, but isn't the former about double the price?

No argument. There are some things about our make and model that one could categorize as "cheap".
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Old 01-26-2015, 04:59 PM   #79
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I have no doubt of the many differences between the Heritage 42 and the Beneteau Swift 44, but isn't the former about double the price?

No argument. There are some things about our make and model that one could categorize as "cheap".
Is the GB Europa considered Heritage?

The Beneteau's at Trawlerfest were new. The GB Europa was a 2001 and they were having a boat show special on it for $350K. It was the only boat we went back to for a second look. I don't recall the price on the Beneteau Swift 44' and didn't take a brochure but believe it was over $500K new. Not really an apples to apples comparison.
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Old 01-26-2015, 05:04 PM   #80
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We looked at the Beneteau Swift 34 and 44 last Thursday at Trawlerfest and I was disappointed in each. The layouts were nice but everything felt cheap and somewhat flimsy compared to the other boats we looked at.

One of our favorites was a Grand Banks Europa 42'.
I think Beneteau has hit the European Market pretty well and missed the US market a little. The did show an appreciation for the type boat many are looking for. We just have different ideas of the finish we want and the look.

Any Australian here, speak up as to reaction there to the Swift Trawlers of Beneteau.

Grand Banks had the market and people still want their older boats. They hit what many desired, but moved out of the price range most want plus just had a diminished level of presence.
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