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Old 01-25-2015, 05:31 PM   #41
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Understood.


This end-product-improved, cost reducing, completion expediting, and weight limiting build-out process and material-mix I mention is like nothing on the table at this time, for any style boat. Far as I know... regarding hulls and decks.
Art

You keep hinting that you have some wiz bang thing figured out that will revolutionize the boat building market.

Do you have a patent? Do you have a patent application? Are you working with a patent attorney?

Come on... I for one am interested, spit it out buddy.

What have you got up your sleeve???
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Old 01-25-2015, 05:55 PM   #42
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Art

You keep hinting that you have some wiz bang thing figured out that will revolutionize the boat building market.

Do you have a patent? Do you have a patent application? Are you working with a patent attorney?

Come on... I for one am interested, spit it out buddy.

What have you got up your sleeve???
Kevin - On this product I have not yet applied for patents. All portions are currently held in Trade Secret Abeyance. On non marine items I do have patents. Years ago dad received patent on stabilizer system that I worked hard on during development. Provisional with USPTO could be easily set up on this if real interest were to be come available; that is, interest by an organization that had the clout to follow through. I don't do ND/NC Agreements with those who simply want a peak at my inventions. I do ND/NC Agreements with those who have real interest and capability for product development.
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:11 PM   #43
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Kevin - On this product I have not yet applied for patents. All portions are currently held in Trade Secret Abeyance. On non marine items I do have patents. Years ago dad received patent on stabilizer system that I worked hard on during development. Provisional with USPTO could be easily set up on this if real interest were to be come available; that is, interest by an organization that had the clout to follow through. I don't do ND/NC Agreements with those who simply want a peak at my inventions. I do ND/NC Agreements with those who have real interest and capability for product development.
Why not hire a patent attorney. Prove your concept, file a patent, and then market your product or process.

Every day you wait is a day that some other guy could use to figure out what you worked hard on.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:07 PM   #44
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I don't think there is any way in hell that Grand Banks could build their boats in the PNW and make any profit whatsoever. Labor costs are far too high in the US, outside of perhaps the SE states, to make this kind of low-volume, high-quality product profitable.

I just returned from directing a shoot in Taipei at EGAT, one of the best, most successful MROs in the aviation industry. They are the maintenance arm of Evergreen, the shipping, air transportation, finance, you-name-it company that is owned by one person.

EGAT performs A, B, C, and D checks for a whole bunch of big airlines--- ANA, JAL, Delta, Atlas Air, China Air, their associated Evergreen airline, EVA, and the list goes on. They also do big mods like installing winglets on 767s. They built the four Boeing Dreamlifters, the highly modified 747s that ferry 787 fuselage sections and wings from the suppliers who make them to Everett and Charleston. They work on Boeing and Airbus planes, all models.

Their managing director told us that they are constantly being urged by a number of US airlines to open an MRO in the US, preferably the west coast, with guarantees of as much business as they can handle. He refuses to do it for two primary reasons--- labor cost and unions. He feels both would dilute the level of quality service and competitive pricing EGAT is renown for.

Grand Banks would be in a similar situation on a much smaller scale. Even with labor costs in Malaysia as low as they are, they are apparently not able to become and stay profitable. Granted, many of their problems have to do with management and corporate instability. But given their current product line, they could not maintain the same level of quality if they moved productin to the US without increasing the prices by a huge amount given what their labor (and probably much of their materials) would cost.

With the competition they face already, moving production to the PNW (or probably anywhere in the US) would be a formula for fast failure. Their best bet would probably be to do what everyone else is doing and move production to the PRC. The aerospace industry is putting more and more work into the PRC, the auto makers are doing this, everybody's doing it. Even Harley Davidson came within a gnat's whisker of moving production to China a few years ago and only what this would have done to the H-D image prevented them from doing so (a smart decision on their part).

But moving the production of a high-end, labor-intensive, low-volume product from Asia/SE Asia to the US? Might as well put the gun to the head of the corporate creature and pull the trigger.

I'm amazed Nordic and American Tug have held on here for as long as they have. I suspect it's for a small version of why we (Boeing) have stayed here for as long as we have. It's simply too expensive to move an established production facility somewhere else. In other words, it makes all sorts of sense to move Nordic Tug to the PRC, but the cost of doing so would probably eat up the profits that would be realized by the move for years to come. So so far, they have elected to struggle on where they are.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:17 PM   #45
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Bayliner / Meridian was building their boats in the PNW till Brunswick Corporation took over.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:18 PM   #46
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I don't think there is any way in hell that Grand Banks could build their boats in the PNW and make any profit whatsoever. Labor costs are far too high in the US, outside of perhaps the SE states, to make this kind of low-volume, high-quality product profitable....
Sounds right, but then I would never have thought Palm Beach could build and market high end boats in Australia and make a $. Maybe they couldn`t, thus the sale to GB. Even so, Riviera and Maritimo continue building in Australia, and I`m sure we are a higher cost producer than USA. We can`t even build cars economically here, viz the departure of Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan,etc, as local manufacturers.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:40 PM   #47
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Actually, Marin, I've looked at their current costs of manufacturing and feel certain they could be built in the US at the same or lower costs. They don't have low costs in Malaysia, as they should with $30 per day labor rates. And their administrative and sales costs could be drastically reduced.

As to labor costs and unions, most boat builders are not unionized and on a boat that size, labor is really a rather small portion of the costs. The businesses you describe are far more labor intensive.

Now I know this isn't ever going to happen and long ago gave up on the possibility so neither of us will ever be proven right.

This is one of those scenarios I'd love to analyze in detail with all the information and involving the right people. But you do have three examples in the PNW in American Tug, Nordic Tug and Westport. You are right about the costs of moving. Every company I've ever seen move has underestimated them.

We probably should let the thread get back on topic and take any more of this private.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:41 PM   #48
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Sounds right, but then I would never have thought Palm Beach could build and market high end boats in Australia and make a $. Maybe they couldn`t, thus the sale to GB. Even so, Riviera and Maritimo continue building in Australia, and I`m sure we are a higher cost producer than USA. We can`t even build cars economically here, viz the departure of Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan,etc, as local manufacturers.
Yes, you are much higher labor costs. I looked at one manufacturing facility which had 9 different unions in one plant.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:42 PM   #49
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Bayliner / Meridian was building their boats in the PNW till Brunswick Corporation took over.
Bayliner was. Meridian came into existence as a Brunswick move to raise prices.
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Old 01-25-2015, 09:30 PM   #50
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Fortunately for the boat builder. Unfortunately for the labor force.

My boat building technique would greatly reduce labor needs. It also reduces material costs and lowers the few laborer's experience and/or technological requirements.

Automation builds the hull and decks. Automated "machines" would be manufactured overseas. Materials and their components would likely come from overseas too. Other boat portions such as engines, interiors, appliances, railings, anchors et al would be built by lowest bidder that can uphold quality – in U.S or overseas.

Properly engineered the “snap together” (i.e. well fastened)portions of boat models would pass along on an assembly line till they go out the door.

This is why I say there is a completely different and new/better way to build-out pleasure boats. A way that could function with its main base in the USA and keep retail prices affordable. Built in America increases retail sales of really good products.
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Old 01-25-2015, 09:40 PM   #51
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Bayliner / Meridian was building their boats in the PNW till Brunswick Corporation took over.
Actually longer than that. Bayliner then Meridian made the pilothouse motoryachts in Arlington Washington right up to the time production of those models ended in 2008 I believe.

Your point is a good one. If Bayliner could profitably make their boats in Washington why not Grand Banks?

Possibly the joinery that separates Grand Banks quality from Bayliner/Meridian quality (and yes there is a difference ) is so labor intensive that it takes inexpensive labor like that found in Asia to make the boats marketable? Just a guess.

But Why does American Tug, and why did Nordic Tug both make their boats in the same vicinity as Bayliner/Meridian successfully?

Perhaps the problem isn't the build at all. Perhaps its an organization that requires higher sales price vs production price spreads to keep itself profitable as a company?
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Old 01-25-2015, 09:46 PM   #52
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Why not hire a patent attorney. Prove your concept, file a patent, and then market your product or process.

Every day you wait is a day that some other guy could use to figure out what you worked hard on.
I have patent attys. Also am close to a person at USPTO.

Currently too busy on other business items to place great efforts into this for boats. If a bona fide boat builder with means wanted to discuss we could prepare confidentiality documents and then closely review.

Till then, or until my time becomes more available, I will keep this boat building technique in Trade Secret Abeyance.

Thanks for your suggestions.
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Old 01-25-2015, 09:48 PM   #53
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But Why does American Tug, and why did Nordic Tug both make their boats in the same vicinity as Bayliner/Meridian successfully?

Perhaps the problem isn't the build at all. Perhaps its an organization that requires higher sales price vs production price spreads to keep itself profitable as a company?
And perhaps it's just management. Northern Marine doesn't keep folding under different owners because of cost. One thing I learned long ago was to be careful of making excuses. Look around and see if anyone else is successful. If so, then what are they doing that you aren't.
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Old 01-25-2015, 09:53 PM   #54
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And perhaps it's just management. Northern Marine doesn't keep folding under different owners because of cost. One thing I learned long ago was to be careful of making excuses. Look around and see if anyone else is successful. If so, then what are they doing that you aren't.
Exactly!

If company A can make money then company B can as well.
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Old 01-25-2015, 10:13 PM   #55
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There are those who would argue that this segment of the market for new boats is dead. Is there really no demand or is there no available product at a reasonable price?

The yacht builders have deserted their smaller boats. Westport had the Pacific Mariner 65 which sold over 200 units and dropped it. Look at Ocean Alexander moving up. Now to me that makes sense for yacht builders as I think we're talking in 30-60' about people who don't want a yacht and aren't going to spend yacht money. I'm not sure how many insist the boat has teak and exceptional wood throughout. Are the boats offered too dressed up for the market? I sure see a lot of popularity on the used market of Bayliner and Mainship, certainly not dressed up boats.
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Old 01-25-2015, 10:50 PM   #56
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There are those who would argue that this segment of the market for new boats is dead. Is there really no demand or is there no available product at a reasonable price?

The yacht builders have deserted their smaller boats. Westport had the Pacific Mariner 65 which sold over 200 units and dropped it. Look at Ocean Alexander moving up. Now to me that makes sense for yacht builders as I think we're talking in 30-60' about people who don't want a yacht and aren't going to spend yacht money. I'm not sure how many insist the boat has teak and exceptional wood throughout. Are the boats offered too dressed up for the market? I sure see a lot of popularity on the used market of Bayliner and Mainship, certainly not dressed up boats.
The question is one of market segment, demographics.

Think from a customer standpoint. Lets say you are a potential customer with a 250,000 budget to spend on a boat. Lets say that you are a empty nester, or near empty nester and want to go cruising. You've had boats before, ski boats, cabin cruisers, and the like. What can you get for that money?

Well, you could buy a late model Bayliner 4788, Meridian 490.

You could buy a Taiwan trawler in the same size range and have quite a bit of money leftover for refurbishing.

You could buy a smaller late model boat like a Nordic Tug.

Or you could buy a 30-34' new cabin cruiser, something like a Sea Ray.

Remember that the customer isn't saying to himself "I want to go cruising, I'll pay what it takes to go"

He is saying "I want to go cruising, and I have about a quarter million I'm comfortable spending"

What does this wannabe big boat owner buy???

Well, the Bayliner/Meridian 4788/490 gets allot of boat for that money. Not the fancyest boat, but a nice platform with room for the grandkids.

The older boat TT is tempting, but this same customer is afraid of older boats, and all the problems he's heard about with soft decks, and just in general messed up boats. Besides he knows that once the initial money is spent on the boat his admrial will squirm over big maintenance bills, even if he tells her about refurbishing an older boat before hand.

The Nordic tug sounds great, and is a great boat, but well, this customer already has a 28-30' cabin cruiser, and 34-38' just isn't that much more room. Maybe not more room inside anyway depending on what he already has.

The new cabin cruiser is out of the question. He already has an older cruiser so he's not going to buy a new model of basically the same thing.

So, he and others like him buy the Bayliner.

Your challenge if you want to steal that customer is to give him another option.

You could market a new boat for more money and upsell the customer in a variety of ways. More reliability, less maintenance costs, better financing options, pick your poison.

But it has to be reasonable, both cost and mentally in the customers head, or he'll just buy the used boat.

I do not know where the mental cutoff is. I just don't know, but there is a point where you can upsell to and get results.
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Old 01-26-2015, 12:49 AM   #57
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If Grand Banks continues to build their boats using the materials and processes they use now, there is no way they could be built profitably in the US. Their process--- building handmade, quality-cabinetry cabin modules and dropping them into the hulls-- is both labor intensive and very, very expensive to do.

If Grand Banks designed and developed an entirely different style of boat, one that could be made with highly repetitive processes using as much automation as possible to greatly reduce the manufacturing cost, they might--- might-- be able to pull it off.

Even Boeing has developed new automated processes for building and joining the fuselage of the new 777X and its all composite wing. We paint the 777 wing today using robots. It's the only way this kind of work can continue to be done in the US and keep the end product competitive.

I read recently about the automation tools that have been introduced into the food industry, particularly the fast food industry. These are being talked about quite a bit in this area by restaurant and fast food owners as the only way they can remain in business with a $15 minimum wage.

The whole name of the game in the US is to eliminate workers, or use only part-time contract workers to avoid high costs like medical, vacation, pension, and other traditional benefits. Automation is going to play a larger role than we have ever seen before, and in fields we never expected to see it.

I recently saw a very cool video on how Tesla builds cars. Almost 100 percent automation.

So if Grand Banks could toss out their forty-plus-year-old manufacturing processes, they could perhaps---- perhaps--- build in the US at a competitive price.

But then the boats wouldn't be Grand Banks anymore, would they.....

Anyway, it's a moot point because they will never do it as BandB says. If they move at all, it would undoubtedly be to the PRC.
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Old 01-26-2015, 01:32 AM   #58
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So if Grand Banks could toss out their forty-plus-year-old manufacturing processes, they could perhaps---- perhaps--- build in the US at a competitive price.

But then the boats wouldn't be Grand Banks anymore, would they.....
They could be Grand Banks still with changing the processes. And the current processes are definitely part of the problem. This is something Hatteras resisted so long. You can have a more efficient carpentry shop. There is at least one builder in the US who match their carpentry and do it far less expensively. You can change production methods, at least core the decks and bridge if not the whole boat. There was a time we looked at cored as being horrible. Today there are some builders using very advanced methods and materials. The old methods aren't perfect either.

Their current processes aren't working. When you have a company that has now struggled for years, a small tweak isn't the answer. One must relook at everything they do and make changes.

Would it be a different boat? Yes, I'd like to think an evolved boat. Probably a better all around boat, able to achieve the same performance with less horsepower or achieve better performance. A 54' boat shouldn't require 1430 hp to reach a max of 21 knots and cruise at 17. I'd personally consider switching engine manufacturers and at their volume I'd only have one. I have a personal problem with CAT on such a boat, primarily with the noise factor.

Standardize your equipment suppliers and equipment. You can remove significant production time that way.

Figure out who you are. Let's see, Eastbay has a 45', 46', 50' and 55' and Palm Beach has 45', 50', 55' and 65'.

Are you a production or custom builder? They need to be production in their size range. But they're doing a lot of things like a custom builder.

Car makers regularly change models and we don't say they aren't who they are anymore. Boeing improves methods constantly and is always looking for better ways to do things. Do some real engineering.

Instead of evolving the Heritage line they've just built the Aleutian line. Volume drops and their response is adding more models each time.

Now, the criticisms I make of GB, I'd make some of them on other builders too. They aren't alone. Maybe just suffering most at the moment. You can't stay constant. Can't stay where you are. You either improve or you get worse. If you're not moving forward, then you're moving backward.

I just so hate to see another Tollycraft, to see another good brand gone like Bayliner is. I hate Cabo is gone for now at least and Bertram found multiple ways to kill themselves. It's probably best they're gone.

It really doesn't matter where GB is, if they don't change their processes and improve their manufacturing and don't get their outrageous sales and administrative costs under control, they won't remain. Then they'll blame it on economy or fuel costs or healthcare or weather or anything but themselves.

And the relevance to this thread is that if we don't have some builders innovate and do some new things, find some spark, then the boat we're discussing won't be available.
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:07 AM   #59
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To All,

In uncountable ways for the better, than historical previous materials and methods, in the 20th Century fiberglass globally changed boat building and the labor-way in which most pleasure boats and many work boats are constructed. You could say it revolutionized boat building. In addition to the marine industry, FRP’s qualities for numerous other type products’ build-out is being utilized around the world. It’s agreeable and needed capabilities/qualities will remain accommodative for untold number of years as being an intricate portion on many forms of unit construction.

For boat building fiberglass is time consuming and labor intensive, multi stage build-out, end product weighty material. It is time for a top quality high-tech 21st Century replacement.

Need has arrived for another breakthrough build-out product that encompasses material and method for the pleasure boating industry to reduce construction time, automate build-out procedures, and slash labor.

CompFlo™ [CF] material and VibeInj™ [VI] build-out process could become just such a breakthrough replacement. Pleasure boat building needs to become simply-automated with cost reductions on many levels while providing improved finish-products.

New Pleasure-Boat Sales can be again rejuvenated. Look what Fiberglass did for revolutionizing the boating market in the 20th Century. Think what CompFlo™ could do in this 21st Century.

Successful regards,

Art
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:15 AM   #60
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If Grand Banks continues to build their boats using the materials and processes they use now, there is no way they could be built profitably in the US. Their process--- building handmade, quality-cabinetry cabin modules and dropping them into the hulls-- is both labor intensive and very, very expensive to do.

If Grand Banks designed and developed an entirely different style of boat, one that could be made with highly repetitive processes using as much automation as possible to greatly reduce the manufacturing cost, they might--- might-- be able to pull it off.

I could imagine a process where the hull, deck, bridge, etc. are all 3-D printed from some future lightweight/strong material (SuperKevlar?) in segments (e.g., 10'x10' or whatever) that snap together like Legos. Only with a better/tighter snap fitting, perhaps augmented with an adhesive within the "snaps" (a future version of 5200?) and then perhaps completely oversprayed with some future magic paint (SuperGel?) that completely fills and fairs the connections and so forth. And perhaps the segment are slightly hollow, so they can be filled (vacuum injected?) with some nifty future waterproof coring/flotation/strengthening/soundproofing material (SuperFoam?).

Cabinetry is all CNC-produced (unless it can be 3-D printed too, out of some future "SuperWood" that looks/acts/feels like teak or oak or whatever.

Placement (design) and emplacement (execution) is all CAD-cum-CNC-cum-robot work.

Once individual part (segment, engines, cabinetry, other systems, etc.) have been gathered together, the actual build takes 10 days or less.

And so forth.

With the idea of cutting production costs to 30% of whatever they are now (not counting the engines, maybe).

Mind you, this is just throwing a dart at a concept board. I wouldn't know a 3-D printer if it bit me on the a$$... but it seems like investigating -- maybe even adopting -- off-the-wall concepts is about the only way to make some major change in the market. Nickel-diming improvements current production techniques let's overall cost keep growing, even if it does marginally slow the climb rate a bit from time to time.

-Chris
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